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Author Topic: A wire in the blood  (Read 17088 times)

Rebo Paing

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #15 on: 30/07/2007 07:23 »
When you go around making challenges like this, you can get call up on it. What is  good for the goose in good for the gander. Your brother is not as innocent as you make out.  ::)

I will keep bringing up these contradictions, you and your brother keep making. [top]


Let's begin by doing away with certain assumptions, shall we?  :)
First of all I have never assumed that Bram is innocent in anyway, shape or form. (If I'm guilty of anything then it would be that I would gladly step in harms way for him ... and that would be a valid assumption).

Personally I dislike any type of bravado hype, because in my experience that is all it is, and I accept that we all do it, myself included ... and it's still absolute immature rubbish as I'm sure that you agree.   ;D.

However that has not detracted from the original problem has it? The agenda, which I have made clear from the beginning is that there is/was an issue with certain rather outrageous claims made by yours/Sanders silat group. There was NO debate about its efficacy or otherwise.

I address this next portion to everyone reading this thread ... The problem with communicating via the medium of insulting and provocative language, whether it's via a website designed to inform (or misinform) and via a forum, is that the gist of the argument tends to become lost in the shouting. And then ... inevitably the thread is closed and no one achieves anything, so we all become losers.

Communication and the search for mutual understanding is achieved through polite and diplomatic discourse and by staying on topic, whether as a static website, or an active thriving forum. Finding examples of im-politic discourse does not address the original debate ... it widens it into the arena of nonsensical tit-for-tat quarrelling, that serves no useful purpose.

Optimus Prime, the issue that we have with claims made on Sanders site are real. I accept that the communication to convey that has not always been the most enlightened, and for my part only, I surrender my apology ... however, it takes two parties to enable effective discussion ... and I have not yet seen a positive reaction in the form of a verbal acknowledgement from your side (meaning Sanders side) to date on the issues delineated by the original debate.

Wassalam, peace be upon all of us,

Krisno

N.B. When a claim (by Sanders) is made public by him, demeaning of a Cimande personality ... that is extremely undiplomatic and impolite, in any culture, certainly very much so in Jawanese culture. It is confrontational to the extreme and is considered in VERY POOR taste ... I suspect almost anywhere. It is foolish not to expect retaliation from Indonesians on such a provocative score, and maybe it is approaching that zero hour when we realise that our communication is ineffective?
« Last Edit: 31/07/2007 20:24 by Rebo Paing »

Bobbe

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #16 on: 31/07/2007 16:31 »
 Hey Krisno, I remember you as well.

Quote
you need to read the Ramayana first hehe!

I have!  [top]

Quote
If you were wayang, I think you would be Kumbokarno

I have always thought Garuda more like.

I wasn't going to post again, but I wanted to say that I have always appreciated your input, also on the MAP. I remember you being the peacmaker in many situations.

If you find yourself in Seattle someday, look me up. I know a great Halal restaurant where we can have a civilized debate about Silat over some Haleem and a nice cup of Chai.



Bobbe Edmonds
Edmonds Martial Arts Academy
www.EMAA.us
http://currythief.blogspot.com

Rebo Paing

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #17 on: 31/07/2007 20:37 »
Hi Bobbe,
I hope you do post again, and thank you for the invite  :).

Please don't equate the distrust for Sanders to be a blanket distrust of all western pesilat.

Salam,
Krisno





Rebo Paing

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Some quiet thinking ...
« Reply #18 on: 31/07/2007 20:49 »
Optimus Prime,

I'm ruminating here, but in my opinion Sanders has made a statement because of his website, which represents him.

People are asking questions and debating on that, and it doesn't extend beyond that really ...

Why is there a need to belittle a Cimande personality ... is it to make his own system sell better?

This is what I find difficult to comprehend ...

I believe that to get the result we want, we need to focus on the delivery of the message. But first we need to be very clear on what result we want.

Wassalam,
Krisno

« Last Edit: 31/07/2007 20:52 by Rebo Paing »

Guru Penglima Warrior Tea

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #19 on: 31/07/2007 21:54 »
The thing I’ve noticed about Americans in general is that we seem to have a definite sense of entitlement, starting from the old days of manifest destiny.  We come to something like silat and expect to be praised and exalted by the native practitioners for our efforts whether we “get it” or not.   :)p

The mystique of silat is attractive to us Americans, because we are so culturally bankrupt we have a yearning to be “native”, “tribal”, and “exotic” which also explains the proclivity of white guys to sport such things as Maori warrior tattoos.  And hell, if we are claiming to be the greatest cimande in the world while doing something that bears almost no resemblance to traditional cimande, and we are wearing Balinese head wraps and sarongs, Sunda groom’s jackets, and reebok tennis shoes, then who are these goddam Indonesians to criticize us?!?!?!?!  At least we’re trying... ^:)^

Sanders has always been taken lightly by the martial arts community here.  In the past the Indos I know would politely decline to comment on him when asked.  Now he has a pathological impetus to scream that he is better and superior than Indonesians.  I wonder why?

Pak Nick the Sunda Warrior on this forum is a refreshing example of a true pesilat.  He obviously has knowledge and respect for the culture of silat.  I don’t know him personally but from his website I get the feeling that he is driven by love of the Art and not personal gain or politics.  Same with Gorka from France.  If westerners need examples of other westerners to follow, then let them follow people like Nick, Gorka and Steve Benitez.

Salaam,

Guru Penglima Warrior Teacher

Gajah

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Re: A wire in the blood-bukalah matamu!
« Reply #20 on: 31/07/2007 23:11 »
Quote
The thing I’ve noticed about Americans in general is that we seem to have a definite sense of entitlement, starting from the old days of manifest destiny.  We come to something like silat and expect to be praised and exalted by the native practitioners for our efforts whether we “get it” or not

Yes I think this type of attitude does exist throughout the West, although it is not exclusive to the West(I have been disgusted at the attitude of some Arabs in Indonesia for example).

I'd call it cultural imperialism or even neo-colonialism. Whatever you call it, it is a perceived superiority. It reminds me of some of those old British colonial photos. The master surrounded by his adoring native servants ::)

I think those responsible for the controversy, should maybe take a fresh look at what they are writing. And at least try to understand what is so annoying for some :-\

Try this. Imagine for a moment you are not an American, but an Indonesian, and read it again.

Or how about this, stay American-let's say a basketball enthusiast-and imagine you  read a website from an Indonesian team saying they in fact invented the game, and could in fact beat 95% of American teams :-* :w

Surely, it's not that difficult to get it :'(

Ranggalana

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #21 on: 01/08/2007 06:00 »
....I wasn't going to post again, ....

I think people would like you to post again Bobbe. Even though you think that only three people here are worthy and the rest can get stuffed! I for one must be one of those who you think should go get stuffed, but before I do that, I would like to know your opinion on the claims that Sanders makes that have caused this controversy.

Do you have an opinion about it?

Salam hangat,
Bram.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

EricB

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #22 on: 01/08/2007 10:21 »
Same goes for me Bobbe,

not everybode needs to have the same opinion, let's stay in discussion
There are a lot of topics we all can discuss our various meanings,

Bhinekka Tunggal Ika = Unity in Diversity

If everybody thinks the same, there will be no discussion at all,
discussion is the main thing to do on a foum :)

Bobbe

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #23 on: 01/08/2007 14:15 »
Hi everybody.

From Bram:

Quote
I would like to know your opinion on the claims that Sanders makes that have caused this controversy.

Do you have an opinion about it?

I’m going to answer this in two sections. Sander’s claims aren’t mine, although he was included in the spectrum I posted about. Sanders represents SANDERS, not ALL PENCAK SILAT IN AMERICA. I am not defending HIM per se, what I am defending and where I take umbrage is contrived from the following posts:

This one is under “Misrepresentations of Silat: the Wetzel Patricide”

Quote
When I try and study to understand why the USA silat schools tend to be bombastic I end up here: in the patricide that shock America in many years ago. I understand that Willy Wetzel was one of the pioneers of silat in the USA and that he was revered a lot like Chinese Masters are. However, reading through the internet it becomes obvious that he was not a master. A formidable fighter maybe yes, but not a master.

This might be the reason why USA silat is so bombastic and refuses to listen to the mother-source but often uses the mother-country in manipulative ways.

I don’t see us as being “Bombastic”, but if you accuse you must expect defense. It is EXACTLY what you would, and have, done in this situation.

Most of the pioneers in American Silat, perhaps all at some point, have lied to us. It’s hard to tell sometimes. In the case of Wetzel, well, that’s one of the saddest and most bizarre cases in the history of martial arts altogether. Bram, you may remember on the Malay board where I challenged someone to produce a “Tjimindie” village, and finally someone did after consulting a map. Personally, this doesn’t convince me one bit that there is a “Tjimindie” style, but since I don’t train it nor have to validate its existence, who cares anyway?

Quote
Maybe this is why a lot of American schools are the way they are...

I beg your pardon Bram, but how do you know “A lot of American schools”?? You ever BEEN here? Have you crossed hands with one of our skilled pesilats? I have a couple of students in their third year that could change your mind, I bet. A second ago you accused us of beuing "Bombastic". You cannot comment on something which you have never SEEN.

And how would you take it if I replied “Perhaps the overwhelming lack of fighting ability found in most Indonesian Aliran is due to the fact that so few of them can read a newspaper, let alone understand the undulating circumstance and galaxy-wide breach between reality and fantasy in martial arts. They cannot train under a Muslim society without falling victim to the fairy tales of religion. Perhaps THIS is why they can chew glass and ram nails in their heads, but a common street-educated American fighter could knock them back a month of Sundays before they realized they were even under attack.”

Don’t read further until you have THOUGHT about that. It’s not something that I sincerely mean, and I’m not attacking you. What I want (hope) to do is make you see: If you post something that you yourself could not tolerate if it was posted about you, why are you surprised and angry when the reply is IDENTICAL to yours? Do you suppose you are the only one with feelings? Are Indonesians the only humans on the planet?

Sanders, Wetzel, Ingram and the Dethouars have all made mistakes. And yes, some have outright lied. One of these groups I have trained with directly to understand the Dutch-Indo side of things, and if I am an honest person I would have to admit that I too found it a waste of my time and money. But the fact remains, your attacks on their THOUSANDS of students won’t earn you any points. How will we react when we DO seek out the knowledge from Indonesia and we meet you? Will you treat us in your Aliran as you do on the web?

Quote
Bobbe, I know these things from the INTERNET. It is stupid of you to suggest that I have to go train in the USA before making comments about US pesilats. Their views and claims and misconceptions are on the web for all to see.

It’s not stupid, it is a very sensible approach. Attend: I had to travel to Indonesia to gain knowledge, correct?

So how can you profess to understand us without BEING here? There is a word for what you are claiming to know, and it’s not very nice. And I told you guys to come over here and see for yourselves because frankly, what you see on the web is a VERY small portion of what’s represented here. There are hundreds of Aliran that have no web site, but excellent reputations.

Now, the people you are attacking on this website might not represent Silat they way YOU want them to. But they were the first in this country to bring it out, and if you want to criticize them, you have to give them credit as well. And it’s VERY easy to attack websites, they are in the public eye.

Bram, I hereby challenge you to put yourself and/or your Aliran up on the web. Let US see YOU. On the MAP I posted a challenge aimed at your teacher, and I received no response, at least not from him. My site, my teachers, my style and my technique are all up for everybody to see. So of course, I draw criticism like a lightbulb draws moths. You can go to Youtube and look me up, I have over 40 videos up for all to see.

Where are you?

Quote
He forgets the special mission of man, the mission for which he has been specially endowed, and rotates in fruitless adventure, and I think that "A wire in the blood" , with lies and truth is one of this fruitless adventure.

…This one from Puggiotto, and typical of what I meant. You cannot expect Americans to accept this kind of singsong pseudo-intellectual nonsense and swallow it without gagging. A fruitless adventure? Not in the slightest. I have said what I meant to say, and I am a man who stands by his word. It’s called integrity.

Quote
Misrepresentations being corrected: the case is Jim Ingram claiming to be Guru Besar Mustika Kwitang while Ayah Zakaria is still teaching in Jakarta. Jim Ingram stops calling himself Guru Besar of Mustika Kwitang, problem gone.

Ironically, Jim Ingram teaches about three miles from me, here in Washington (although I don’t train with him) and I have some insight on this. He STILL calls himself Guru Besar of Mustika Kwitang. I don't see this as "Corrected" only "Swept under the rug". I believe with more and more knowledge and experience coming out of Indonesia with authentic training, the exposure of many other silat teachers will take place. I have seen it already, and as I said before, what you could get away with 20 years ago cannot be done today. In the 1980's no one had ever heard of Pencak Silat, and nobody went to Indonesia, so who could say what was real and what was not? Do you understand? you are trying to fight 20 or more years of misdirection in some cases, and when that fails you start wars. I do not see how this will bring us closer together.
Quote
Do you understand? We want you white guys to get things right and not, as you accuse, the other way.

So, what have I got wrong? The hormat? The ability? Not being Musilm? Demystifying Pencak Silat? I love this art, but there are many things  will not believe simply because they cannot be proven.

Also, Bram, that little crack about me being an Indonesian Language expert on the Malay forum didn’t earn you any points with me. When I snap my fingers and yell “Mas!” at Sari Sunda in Bandung, you bet your ass an Indonesian waiter comes running with my Bandrek panas. But if I call Pak Bambang “mas”, he’ll break something, probably starting with my fingers and ending at my toes. And I would NEVER address Pak Dharma Sudarma in Aliran Cimande Tari Kolot as “Mas”. I still go back to Cimande. So, like they say, “As me pick ‘em, so me sell ‘em”. This means as I see it is how I tell it. Is my Bahasa the most correct? No, I know it’s not, I studied it as a second language late in life. On the other hand, it’s not a precise language either, and uses the scatter method more than surgical annunciation. You comment on what you know to be true. I do the same for what is true in MY heart.

Bradlee corrected my spelling of various schools on another post, and I offered no argument because I HAVE SEEN IT SPELLED MY WAY AND HIS WAY.

Who is correct? You, for being Indonesian? Me for copying what my teacher wrote? Both? None?

Today, the simple is that you will not usually get a polite discussion on variations of style between American and Indonesian martial artists. Actually, I think it is possible to achieve, however, people tend to forget the pride others will have in their particular style or teacher. Remember, if you are posting about someone or some Aliran different from your own, treat them with the same courtesy you would like to receive. Look at the post before you send it, & change the wording around so it's from SOMEONE ELSE, addressed to YOU. Do you like how it sounds? Would you respond to such a post in the spirit of brotherhood? Or would you be inclined to retort instead of reply, chest puffed out, both barrels blazing? This is a good guideline.
Quote
The thing I’ve noticed about Americans in general is that we seem to have a definite sense of entitlement, starting from the old days of manifest destiny.  We come to something like silat and expect to be praised and exalted by the native practitioners for our efforts whether we “get it” or not.

This from Guru Penglima, and it’s NOT what I said. Whatever sense of entitlement I may feel comes from two things:

1: Effort spent working to achieve such knowledge as I have.
2: Ability to apply said knowledge.

I don’t expect to be praised, and I didn’t ask for an attaboy. What I DID say was put your money where your mouth was. I didn’t judge Indonesia or Indonesian culture by a website…If I had, I would have concluded it was a stinking cesspool with polluted air and abundant poverty, and a government that didn’t give a rip about it’s people. But instead I traveled, observed, listened, trained, digested and worked to build a bridge of understanding. Now, you can certainly say whatever you want about American Silat players…but until you cross hands with one, the simple truth is that you are speaking out of ignorance. I have been to both places, and I can attest to what I know from personal experience, not hearsay.
Quote
I think those responsible for the controversy, should maybe take a fresh look at what they are writing. And at least try to understand what is so annoying for some.

*SIGH*

Gajah said this, and if this is the same Gajah from MAP, I can only say his insight is, as always, singularly penetrating and to the point without fanfare or insult.

And he, in my opinion, has the game, set and match. Because I can see where what was written from Sanders would affect Indonesians negatively as well.

Again, your question:

Quote
I would like to know your opinion on the claims that Sanders makes that have caused this controversy.

Do you have an opinion about it?

Yes, I do. Sanders has his problems, as do we all. He also has skill at Pencak Silat.  I do not train with him, nor do I take offense to his interpretation of Cimande. I have never been to Banten, so I cannot comment on that style of Cimande. I can only speak of Cimande Tari Kolot. He can do what he wants, he was teaching this publicly, right or wrong, at a time when I had just started Pencak Silat. Your issue (I think) is with titles in specific.

We do not lengthen our rods by shortening everybody else’s. His claims of titles are for him to square with the world. If you dispute it, he has listed his teachers, and called them by name. Why not check with them?

Everything I wrote in my original post, I still stand by. If you want us (America) to take you seriously, you will have to treat us as equals, not inferiors. And from your first post on MAP Bram, you have never done this. Whether subtle on blunt, you think you are looking down on us. And then you stand back and beat your chest, Promethean, claiming we have wronged you and we are attacking you. Then your brother steps in.

Do you know what we call Martial Arts Planet in America? Since the infusion of Indonesians on it, we call it “Muslim Arts Planet”, and nobody wants to be a part of it anymore. It seems to us that Indonesians are the bombastic ones, unable to post or converse without trying to convert us to Islam, or show us how we just don’t get it. Some jump on the bandwagon, others justly take offense and fire back. What did you expect, we just roll over and say “Oh thank you for enlightening us, we are white and therefore ignorant”. Perhaps that isn’t what you meant at heart. But it’s what comes across to us, and any human being will take offense to the most scathing points. You would do the same. You HAVE DONE the same.

Where do you suppose this will end? With us shaking hands and having tea together? Not at the current rate of exchange between us. If we all (Americans and Indonesians) carry on this way, we’ll die of stupidity.

And maybe that’s for the best, do you think? You, nor anyone else on this board (myself included) are the spokesman for our Aliran. Our teachers don’t endorse this, certainly not the “Cimande Elders”.  I don’t speak for Bambang, he is the LEADER, not the follower. If anyone in Indonesia publicly proclaimed to be my representative and I didn’t approve, I would be on a plane so fast it would make your head spin.
 Do you speak for Cimande, Bram? Or Guru Penglima Warrior Tea, do you represent all silat in America?

Of course not, at the end of the day it’s just a few guys screaming at each other.

Tapi, saya coba penghargaan kamu.

But I will not bow before you.

Quote
Semoga lekas sembuh,
Bram.

Ya, Tapi, semonga saya saut dari kamu.

Nama saya,

Bobbe


Bobbe Edmonds
Edmonds Martial Arts Academy
www.EMAA.us
http://currythief.blogspot.com

Ranggalana

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #24 on: 01/08/2007 14:46 »
Hi everybody.

From Bram:

Quote
I would like to know your opinion on the claims that Sanders makes that have caused this controversy.

Do you have an opinion about it?

I’m going to answer this in two sections. Sander’s claims aren’t mine, although he was included in the spectrum I posted about. Sanders represents SANDERS, not ALL PENCAK SILAT IN AMERICA. I am not defending HIM per se, what I am defending and where I take umbrage is contrived from the following posts:

This one is under “Misrepresentations of Silat: the Wetzel Patricide”

Quote
When I try and study to understand why the USA silat schools tend to be bombastic I end up here: in the patricide that shock America in many years ago. I understand that Willy Wetzel was one of the pioneers of silat in the USA and that he was revered a lot like Chinese Masters are. However, reading through the internet it becomes obvious that he was not a master. A formidable fighter maybe yes, but not a master.

This might be the reason why USA silat is so bombastic and refuses to listen to the mother-source but often uses the mother-country in manipulative ways.

I don’t see us as being “Bombastic”, but if you accuse you must expect defense. It is EXACTLY what you would, and have, done in this situation.

Most of the pioneers in American Silat, perhaps all at some point, have lied to us. It’s hard to tell sometimes. In the case of Wetzel, well, that’s one of the saddest and most bizarre cases in the history of martial arts altogether. Bram, you may remember on the Malay board where I challenged someone to produce a “Tjimindie” village, and finally someone did after consulting a map. Personally, this doesn’t convince me one bit that there is a “Tjimindie” style, but since I don’t train it nor have to validate its existence, who cares anyway?

Quote
Maybe this is why a lot of American schools are the way they are...

I beg your pardon Bram, but how do you know “A lot of American schools”?? You ever BEEN here? Have you crossed hands with one of our skilled pesilats? I have a couple of students in their third year that could change your mind, I bet. A second ago you accused us of beuing "Bombastic". You cannot comment on something which you have never SEEN.Sanders, Wetzel, Ingram and the Dethouars have all made mistakes. And yes, some have outright lied. One of these groups I have trained with directly to understand the Dutch-Indo side of things, and if I am an honest person I would have to admit that I too found it a waste of my time and money. But the fact remains, your attacks on their THOUSANDS of students won’t earn you any points. How will we react when we DO seek out the knowledge from Indonesia and we meet you? Will you treat us in your Aliran as you do on the web?

Quote
Bobbe, I know these things from the INTERNET. It is stupid of you to suggest that I have to go train in the USA before making comments about US pesilats. Their views and claims and misconceptions are on the web for all to see.

It’s not stupid, it is a very sensible approach. Attend: I had to travel to Indonesia to gain knowledge, correct?

So how can you profess to understand us without BEING here? There is a word for what you are claiming to know, and it’s not very nice. And I told you guys to come over here and see for yourselves because frankly, what you see on the web is a VERY small portion of what’s represented here. There are hundreds of Aliran that have no web site, but excellent reputations.....

Bram, I hereby challenge you to put yourself and/or your Aliran up on the web. Let US see YOU. On the MAP I posted a challenge aimed at your teacher, and I received no response, at least not from him. My site, my teachers, my style and my technique are all up for everybody to see. So of course, I draw criticism like a lightbulb draws moths. You can go to Youtube and look me up, I have over 40 videos up for all to see.

Where are you?
.....

Quote
Misrepresentations being corrected: the case is Jim Ingram claiming to be Guru Besar Mustika Kwitang while Ayah Zakaria is still teaching in Jakarta. Jim Ingram stops calling himself Guru Besar of Mustika Kwitang, problem gone.

Ironically, Jim Ingram teaches about three miles from me, here in Washington (although I don’t train with him) and I have some insight on this. He STILL calls himself Guru Besar of Mustika Kwitang. I don't see this as "Corrected" only "Swept under the rug". I believe with more and more knowledge and experience coming out of Indonesia with authentic training, the exposure of many other silat teachers will take place. I have seen it already, and as I said before, what you could get away with 20 years ago cannot be done today. In the 1980's no one had ever heard of Pencak Silat, and nobody went to Indonesia, so who could say what was real and what was not? Do you understand? you are trying to fight 20 or more years of misdirection in some cases, and when that fails you start wars. I do not see how this will bring us closer together.
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Do you understand? We want you white guys to get things right and not, as you accuse, the other way.

So, what have I got wrong? The hormat? The ability? Not being Musilm? Demystifying Pencak Silat? I love this art, but there are many things  will not believe simply because they cannot be proven......

Yes, I do. Sanders has his problems, as do we all. He also has skill at Pencak Silat.  I do not train with him, nor do I take offense to his interpretation of Cimande. I have never been to Banten, so I cannot comment on that style of Cimande. I can only speak of Cimande Tari Kolot. He can do what he wants, he was teaching this publicly, right or wrong, at a time when I had just started Pencak Silat. Your issue (I think) is with titles in specific.

We do not lengthen our rods by shortening everybody else’s. His claims of titles are for him to square with the world. If you dispute it, he has listed his teachers, and called them by name. Why not check with them?

Everything I wrote in my original post, I still stand by. If you want us (America) to take you seriously, you will have to treat us as equals, not inferiors. And from your first post on MAP Bram, you have never done this. Whether subtle on blunt, you think you are looking down on us. And then you stand back and beat your chest, Promethean, claiming we have wronged you and we are attacking you. Then your brother steps in.
...

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Semoga lekas sembuh,
Bram.

Ya, Tapi, semonga saya saut dari kamu.

Nama saya,

Bobbe


Hi Boobe,

Just one request, next time you post could you please post shorter rambles.

Now, my comments about Wetzel's silsilah, I think need some clarification. I made the mistake of generalizing when I did not mean to say that ALL American pesilat are bombastic.... my observations from the internet is that those with the Wetzel silsilah are. So apologies for that, my mistake. However I still believe that you can comment on a website without having to go to America to train with these people as long as you keep your comments focused on what is on the website. And Sanders' website is very bombastic, don't you think?

About Cimindi, there was in the papers here not so long ago a news story from Cimindi, which is apparently a village in Bandung. Is there a Cimindi style? I don't know. Never heard of it here.

Your Indonesian is mixed with Sundanese and in Sundanese there is no Mas, except when you have a Javanese younger man working for you, then you can call him Mas to show respect. It is not correct to say that Mas is not a honorific, as it is, but for Jawanese.

How do you find your vids on youtube Bobbe? I can't seem to find them. Care to give a link?

And if Jim Ingram is close to you and is still calling himself Guru Besar of Mustika Kwitang, as a sahabat silat, it should be your duty to tell him / ask him not to.

I don't look down at you... whoever the US you mean is. There seems that there are two schools of thought in American silat, the first is the one that respects the mother culture of silat, and the second is one that wants to milk the mother culture. I am not sure which one you are in Bobbe, but I hope you are in the first. Of course I treat every human being as an equal, but when it comes to information on, say, Bahasa Indonesia, do you mean to say, that in that realm of Bahasa Indonesia, you want me to treat you as having equal knowledge as me?

I don't understand the last part of your post in Indonesian. What is it exactly that you mean?

Semoga lekas sembuh,
Bram.


batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Rebo Paing

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #25 on: 01/08/2007 14:59 »
Hehe ... respects brother Bobbe  :). Garuda is pretty noble too  [top].

Good post, and I will definitely look you up if I'm ever in Seattle ... although that's not going to happen anytime soon on my wage ... hehe.

I understand fully where you are coming from, and you are correct that we ALL need to be careful about generalisations.

It bears thinking for everyone (especially me!) to be very careful with our wording, lest we be understood the wrong way ... which is why we all need to be perfectly clear of the outcome we want, and then act with a clear focus on the end-game.

As I often tell my children (after they've been fighting) ... no teasing until things have settled ... because emotions are difficult to control sometimes  ;D.

About the east & west thing, it is fraught with potential misunderstandings these days and that's very unfortunate. There has been a long history of misdealings from the past till now (in the world), but as simple people, we should approach each other with the love of our common humanity in our actions.   The politics of the world should not be our method for communication.

We should be an example of how people can learn to listen and respond to eachother, all brothers sharing some common interests, trying to get along the best we can ... silaturahmi ... and that is a fantastic thing  [top]

Wassalam,
Krisno


N.B. Bram, I feel very strongly that Kang Bobbe respects well the roots of his art ... he's alluded to that in many posts ni the past  :) .... and we should all respect attempts at language don't you thnik? That in itself shows sincerity of purpose in my opinion ... hehe, my language these days is a mix of Indonesian, Jawanese and English ... maybe I'm speaking INJAWENG  ;D
« Last Edit: 01/08/2007 15:16 by Rebo Paing »

Bobbe

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #26 on: 01/08/2007 15:06 »
Here are my Youtube vids:

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=Coelacanth&p=r


Bram, I took your ending to mean "Swift recovery of initiative"

"Semoga" (or "Moga) meaning "initiative"

"Lekas" meaning "Fast" or "quick"

"Sembuh" meaning "Recover", sometimes I say it as "come back" (not like "Kembali")

Did I interpet it wrong?

My reply was "I snatch initiative from you"

...But I am not an expert.
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Your Indonesian is mixed with Sundanese

I know. That's my fault. Or maybe Pa Herman's. But mostly me. I love the Sunda culture the most, they make a rendang that I would gladly fight to the death for.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2007 15:10 by Bobbe »


Bobbe Edmonds
Edmonds Martial Arts Academy
www.EMAA.us
http://currythief.blogspot.com

Ranggalana

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #27 on: 01/08/2007 15:28 »
Here are my Youtube vids:

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=Coelacanth&p=r


Bram, I took your ending to mean "Swift recovery of initiative"

"Semoga" (or "Moga) meaning "initiative"

"Lekas" meaning "Fast" or "quick"

"Sembuh" meaning "Recover", sometimes I say it as "come back" (not like "Kembali")

My reply was "I snatch initiative from you"

...But I am not an expert.

Hi Bobbe,

Just found some of your vids on youtube... thanks for the links. Nice kitchen you have! Also you explain things well: you must be a good teacher, and when you mellow you should be a true Guru. I am sure that your three year students could throw me all over the floor. Insya'allah the floor will protect me ^:)^

Semoga : I hope
Lekas: Quick
Sembuh: Get better (as from an ailment).

Your answer, is again, Sundanesian, and in Bahasa Indonesia, I am an expert enough to translate in courts of justice ;D, though my Sundanese is passive.

Mas Kris, I do also think / feel that Bobbe has respect for the mother culture of his art. However I do think that he 'fights for the wrong side' ... Like Kumbakarna. Difference is that Kumbakarna was aware of that, while Bobbe can't seem to see that Sanders' site IS offensive in many ways. Bobbe says that Indonesian pesilat can't get their act together in a million years! Is not that an insulting thing to say?

That is why I say 'semoga lekas sembuh' ... I sincerely hope that Bobbe gets better soon. I feel that Bobbe is actually a good representative of silat in the USA [top] Bobbe thinks that I look down at Western pesilat, but I think he looks down at Indonesians as a whole, not only pesilats ... what, snapping his fingers at a waiter and all?  It may be just a figure of speech, but please don't snap your fingers at any waiter, Indonesian or any other nationality.

Hormat,
Bram
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #28 on: 02/08/2007 00:05 »
Salam Bobbe,

Its is good that you continue to post here.  I saw your youtube clips - bagus.
I personally believe that the efforts of Mas Bram and Mas Krisno are only meant to help Western pesilat understand the true roots of the art of Pencak Silat.  You must understand that the things Mr.Sanders and a few others say on their websites can be offensive to Indonesia and to me as well for that matter.  You and I both know that when you study Pencak Silat in Indonesia you become family.  So when we return to America and see there are people like Mr. Sanders saying that he has the best Cimande in the world and that if you go to Indonesia you will never learn the "key" to Cimande this becomes an attack on your family.  Like when you said "pesilat in Indonesia need to get there act together."  Again that is (in my mind) an attack on my family.  There is no need to say such things.  I do not take any offense if/when Mas Bram or Mas Krisno say that American Silat needs some repair because indeed it does.  Like you yourself said, for the past 20+ years Pencak Silat in America has been misguided by a few.  Indeed there are very good pesilat and guru silat in America.  The actions of this forum are too help those pesilat better understand the origins of what they are being taught.  It is also the responsibility of Silat teachers (you) and pesilat (me) to help clear up this misguidance and also help grow a Silat family in the US.  I am supposed to be in Washington some time next year and would like to have lunch with you sometime.

Hormat,
Nicholas 
The Association of Pencak Silat America - "Promoting Brotherhood Within US Pencak Silat"

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #29 on: 02/08/2007 05:27 »
Hehe ... respects brother Bobbe  :). Garuda is pretty noble too  [top]............

....
N.B. Bram, I feel very strongly that Kang Bobbe respects well the roots of his art ... he's alluded to that in many posts ni the past  :) .... and we should all respect attempts at language don't you thnik? That in itself shows sincerity of purpose in my opinion ... hehe, my language these days is a mix of Indonesian, Jawanese and English ... maybe I'm speaking INJAWENG  ;D

Assalamualaekum everyone,

I don't think that Bobbe is Garuda Mas Kris. He is definitely on the dark side.

Boobe, you learn silat Mande Muda and now what do you say or do for your school? You  call it a cardboard ... here is a copy paste from your blog:

I miss you, Pa. Your children are scattered to the four winds and your mighty kingdom has fallen to a cardboard empire. Without you, we just couldn't hold it together.

Sounds romantic Bobbe, but these are not the words of a pesilat. If that is happening to Mande Muda then YOU as one of Kang Herman's trusted students should be doing something about it! In the West it is called LOYALTY Bobbe. Mande Muda is your family, no? You shouldn't say things like this about your family. Mande Muda is still here, it might be suffering setbacks but it is still alive and people like YOU should be helping it. That would be adab, but how can one expect you to have adab if your first words on this forum is that all but three of us can get stuffed.

Itu artinya MENGHINA, Bobbe, Mas Kris. What, insult us, insult our religion, and insult our nation,... and you think he is OK, Mas Kris?  Check out his recent post on his blog: http://currythief.blogspot.com/2007/07/new-article-on-silat-forum.html

He has an appropriate title to: "Thick as Thieves".... Bobbe, kau MALING silat!

Wassalam,
Bram.

batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

 

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