A wire in the blood

[Rebo Paing]

Itu artinya MENGHINA, Bobbe, Mas Kris. What, insult us, insult our religion, and insult our nation,... and you think he is OK, Mas Kris?  Check out his recent post on his blog: http://currythief.blogspot.com/2007/07/new-article-on-silat-forum.html

He has an appropriate title to: "Thick as Thieves".... Bobbe, kau MALING silat!

I'm disappointed in this turn of events Bobbe ... I never knew this was what you thought.
I truly thought that we were all breaking through into OPEN communication. I thought we had empathy .

Bram, ... what you have discovered is what you could have communicated with me in private as well. Instead you choose to publicly show how gullilble and stupid I really am? .

Aku, isin banget saiki ... 

Sorry, I'm not a part of this any longer.

Salam,
Krisno

[Ranggalana]

.....Bram, ... what you have discovered is what you could have communicated with me in private as well. Instead you choose to publicly show how gullilble and stupid I really am? .

Aku, isin banget saiki ... 

Sorry, I'm not a part of this any longer.

Salam,
Krisno

Mas Kris,

i discovered Bobbe's thoughts from a link sent by a mod here through the silatindonesia mailinglist : it was not private. And anyway, gak perlu isin for having a big heart and warming to Bobbe. As an artist he has his attraction - daya tarik- and he seems to be a great guy. The only problem is what he thinks about us. Aja isin-lah, Mas.... maling kok di gagas ben wae dijegogi asu.

Salam hangat,
Bram

[Bobbe]

I truly thought that we were all breaking through into OPEN communication. I thought we had empathy

As a matter of fact, we did.

What you have read is what I posted with the ORIGINAL ARTICLE I wrote.

Want to know what I THINK?

Try READING before you judge.

http://currythief.blogspot.com/2007/07/passing-torch.html

http://currythief.blogspot.com/2007/04/islam-in-this-age.html

http://currythief.blogspot.com/2007/04/response-to-comment-on-my-islam-in-this.html

http://currythief.blogspot.com/2006/06/in-shadow-of-my-teacher.html

What, insult us, insult our religion, and insult our nation,

I HAVE NEVER INSULTED ISLAM, NOR HAVE I INSULTED INDONESIA

You show me where I did that.

Because we had opened a dialogue, I am going to refrain from firing insults back. Let's see if you can do the same.

Has Mande Muda fallen to something lost? This is not a secret Bram, where is everybody? I loved Pa Herman, did you even know him? Had you ever been in the same room with him?

Every one of the Mande Muda people are doing something else now, again, IT'S NO SECRET. And what I wrote was actually respectful.

I'm sorry it comes to this, but if you think what I said on my Blog is insulting, consider two things:

1: I wrote that BEFORE we started talking.
2: Most of the American Silat world sees you that way.

I didn't expect us to try to speak of things and reason together, and you should think before you condemn. Tell me: Are the disrespectful posts on this web board representative of YOU as well?

[Ranggalana]

I truly thought that we were all breaking through into OPEN communication. I thought we had empathy

As a matter of fact, we did.

What you have read is what I posted with the ORIGINAL ARTICLE I wrote.

Want to know what I THINK?

I'm sorry it comes to this, but if you think what I said on my Blog is insulting, consider two things:

1: I wrote that BEFORE we started talking.
2: Most of the American Silat world sees you that way.

I didn't expect us to try to speak of things and reason together, and you should think before you condemn. Tell me: Are the disrespectful posts on this web board representative of YOU as well?

Well, Bobbe,

I am sorry too that it came to this. I was shocked when I followed  a link to your blog that this morning appeared in the silat Indonesia mailinglist.

A few posts back you raised the tone of your writing and said what I took as ..."So what do you expect us to do? Convert to Islam?" ...and "the Indonesians want us to convert to Islam all the time..."

Then, also in past posts, you said that Indonesian pesilats will never get their act together in a million years. In your blog you say this forum is a cesspit full of snakes.

But we don't want people to convert, and we are not religiousely motivated, neither are we a pit full of snakes. There are all sorts of religious beliefs on this forum.

Our intentions are as we state: to preserve traditional silat and all that goes with it.

My posts here do represent my views. I do not respect attempts to milk my culture, insult my religion, and diss my friends and family. Neither do I respect pesilats who come to attack me for bringing forth discussions about misrepresentations of silat. Nor do I respect pesilat who continuousley misrepresent our culture for fame or fortune. Those who defend them with threats don't get my respect either.

Like Mas Krisno, I liked you Bobbe, even when our first communication if I remember right was you shouting rudely asking for my teacher. But your rudeness and bluntness is in a way endearing and to be honest I like it. I think that I still like you now.

But now I feel I should be wary. You say one thing here, another thing somewhere else. If you don't believe what you wrote on your blog now, then post something to explain that.

I have also experienced having my Grandmaster taken away by a car accident. Our elders selected one of his sons to be our Young Master, he was only 27 at the time. Many Westerners and seniors left our school, saying things like cardboard empire... but some stayed, and our Young Master matured over time. Now he is a Guru Besar in his own right, and those of us who stayed with him are very happy. The accident I mention happened over 20 years ago, now our school is different, but still the same.

Mande Muda lost its Guru Besar in 2000, no? It still exists now. If it has experienced setbacks that is to be expected, no? But if strong characters who are attracted to the truth like yourself stay and work for it, in no time at all it will be the big school it was. Kang Wanda almarhum spent a decade at least in poverty in the US to make Mande Muda what it became. I never knew Kang Wanda almarhum, but I know many Sunda-warriors... and also have heard Kang Yana talk about him too. Everyone loved him, no? But people also expected him to sleep on couches in the USA, no? 

So, Bobbe, if it is true that you don't insult Indonesia, this forum, and Islam... please, show it more clearly so that I for one don't misunderstand you. And if you can't feel insulted by Sanders' website, then try to learn to. But thanks for the divertion from the Sanders mallarky... it is much better having an argument with you than with Sanders. At least you have a name, I respect that. And you are funny too. I respect that as well.

So keep posting here, and bring your eloquent and knowledgable friends... where is the great Mushtaq Ali?  Tell him I miss his insults as well, and I think his comment on your blog is very wise. 

Salam,
Bram

[Gajah]

Bobbe,

I see we have many things in common, curry, tacky horror films, HP Lovecraft and Flea's bass playing

If I may ask, what is your usual response when asked 'which religion?' in Indonesia? In my experience this is aked a lot! I ask this because an answer of "none" can actualy suggest to many people that you are a Communist

Anecdote. I shared a hospital flat many years ago with a talented orthopaedic consultant surgeon. He was African. His father, was for want of a better term, a 'witchdoctor'. So, he had certainly carried on the family tradition of healing.

He also firmly believed in witchcraft, as many Africans do. He was also a rationalistic medical expert. The two belief systems happily co-existed and did not affect his talent as a surgeon.

My point is, all belief systems are culturaly specific. So when you de-mystify or rationalise it is you that is taking something alien and making it fit to your own cultural framework. Which of course is fine and entirely natural.

And how they laughed at Copernicus eh? The sun revolves around the Earth and that is a fact.

Often expressing something as metaphysical or what not, is merely a way of conceptualising something that is perhaps a bit tricky to explain. Anyway I digress...

I suppose what I'm really trying to say is, there is very little point in trying to change each others viewpoint, especially when cultural values play a significant part.

Better to begin on the premise that certain matters can be seen very differently from the respective cultures.

So let's start with this one....

In America, titles and positions that have been earned may be used freely. This is a cultural norm.

In Indonesia, titles and positions are usualy given by others and only used by others. It is considered to be bad form to refer to oneself by a given title. This is a cultural norm.

Can these opposing viewpoints co-exist?

So, there we have it, generalisation I know, and I'm not for one minute suggesting there are no exceptions.


I also believe anything anyone writes at a certain point in time clouded by emotion or passion, need not be representative of them as an individual-and that applies to everyone!

Let's not judge too harshly.

[Rebo Paing]

I also believe anything anyone writes at a certain point in time clouded by emotion or passion, need not be representative of them as an individual-and that applies to everyone!

Let's not judge too harshly.

Against my better judgement, I've decided to post on this thread, because essentially I agree with you Martin, Bobbe presents many fine traits, but he still has the following on his site with no retraction ...

One word of advice: The forum is like a snake's pit, and exponentially getting worssssssse. You will probably read something that offends you. If I said it, fine, reply there or here and I will try to address it. Otherwise, don't bother posting on the forum itself.

You'll only end up regretting it.

How can there be common ground if that is still the prevailing sentiment presented to the world via his blog? I don't hate him for it  ... but it is better for me not to dwell on it and move on.

As far as his views on Islam vis-a-vis the perception of "terrorism" maybe I can help educate. There have been far more innocent Muslims in third world countries that have been butchered because of the west's lust for power and control (both directly and indirectly), than there have been "civilised" westerners butchered by "terrorists" ... and it has been happening for a much longer time ... that is fact, and information can be found in libraries as well as on the Internet.

In the end there is no difference in the barbarity of strapping on a bomb and blowing innocents up, than there is dropping a GBU from 30,000 ft on hapless villagers ... they're both terrorists, except that the terrorist who flies the plane is supported by trillions of dollars, a massive industrial arms complex  and a government that has no qualms in butchering millions to keep their SUVs and their generally selfish, over-fed, avaricious "way of life" going.

There are many things I admire about the west ... the feeling of being the VICTIM is not one of them.

I understand that cultural millieu will colour perspective ... but this ONE issue I feel conflates with his views on religion and in this case it conflates with his views on Islam specifically ... for what he is saying appears to be this ... he hates all religion equally because to him they represent repressive controlling entities, however at the moment he despises Islam a bit more because it appears to him that Islam is the common denominator (and therefore must be to blame  ) for the ill's of "terrorism".

Repressed people will eventually fight back, that is fact too.

/rant.

Wassalam,
Krisno

[optimus prime]

Hi Krisno

 You mention how can they be common ground, because of what Bobbie wrote on his blog, about how he feels about forums.... well look a bit closer to home, and the way your brother writes, saying people have lice, smell bad, and need to go to the hide in the toilet is not portraying much in wanting to find a common ground, from your side of the argument. Before attacker others, you should talk to your brother...




"One word of advice: The forum is like a snake's pit, and exponentially getting worssssssse. You will probably read something that offends you. If I said it, fine, reply there or here and I will try to address it. Otherwise, don't bother posting on the forum itself. You'll only end up regretting it."

How can there be common ground if that is still the prevailing sentiment presented to the world via his blog? I don't hate him for it… Krisno wrote in reply



Is there any way that Sanders can get it through his thick head that I don't point his misrepresentations out to personally attack him? It is not out of Sanders-hate that I have been looking through his lice. No, it is because my love for silat and the cultures here in this part of the world. So, if Sanders went and had a bath and washed his hair and brushed his teeth, he might smell better. And when he doesn't smell of manipulation and bombastic claims and misrepresentation, he will find many strong friendships with the SahabatSilat crew in Indonesia. I promise you.

So just accept that you have made mistakes. Be embarrassed if you must, go hide in the toilet for a while. But realize this, in the end, no one really cares. We are only laughing at you because you are being a clown. Stop being a clown and we will stop laughing. Bram wrote.. example of his feelings....

So Krisno where would be the common ground, if your own brother writes in this way, there will never be a common ground.

Optimus Prime 

A heart that can't find love, is a heart that hurting.

People in glasshouses, shouldn't throw stones... and maybe make sure their brother isn't throwing either, unless they don't care about their glasshouse.....

[Guru Penglima Warrior Tea]

Well, well, Guru Besar Liam the English major strikes again 

Congratulations on figuring out how to change the color of the text.  Now try spellcheck 

GURU PENGLIMA WARRIOR TEACHER

[Gajah]

Krisno,

I'm sure Bobbe will explain his writings, but I expect they may just be heat of the moment rants. I'm sure he's man enough for a retraction in the interest of world peace

With regard to the perception of Islam in the US.
Firstly, in my experience, many Americans are very 'culturally unaware' and are not educated in the same manner as Europeans with regard to the 'outside world'.
Secondly, the US media relentlessly bombards with the modern Islamophobic rhetoric.
Combine the two and you have an easily manipulated general public

Of course it's also easy to forget tha 64 million dollars the US govt. gave to the Mujahadiin 'freedom fighters' in Afghanistan, y'know those that formed Al Qaida

Anyway, I better stop there. I've done this one to death on MAP
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55596&page=150&pp=15&highlight=bush+nazi

Optimus prime

I don't think that going over previous posts is constructive. We just end up with tit for tat arguements. Better to move on. Perhaps both 'sides' could give a little ground?

[EricB]

aren't we going way off topic here ?

please keep up to te subject guys, otherwise this forum wil be like all the others, where fights and arguing are more common than discussion

[Rebo Paing]

aren't we going way off topic here ?

please keep up to te subject guys, otherwise this forum wil be like all the others, where fights and arguing are more common than discussion

We are on topic Kang Eric  ... for this thread anyway .
I hate to say it, but even his noobiness, the one and only Optimus Liam Prime is managing to stay on topic ... in a funny sort of way.

I take your point Martin. I guess FOX news isn't quite the purveyor of fine News is it?

Re the Sanders issue, I'm only speaking for myself, but I'm not interested any longer to involve myself in the Sanders issue, it's like trying to lead a donkey to water ... hehe.   ...

And so to end this dramatic piece ...

And it came to pass (foreboding tone in the background with lots of reverb ... now which Hollywood actor would fit do you think?), that the minions too did cease to participate, and so quiet at last settled over the multitude ...

A shrill washer women voice cut's in ... Optimuuus get back from the window ... he's a VERY naughty little boy ... (shrill voice fades ... end of scene). 

Apologies to Monty Python.

However, I will treat each issue as it arises, and if it deserves a public input (IMO), I'll participate ... maybe.

Salam,
Krisno

[Gajah]

Eric,

My point was in part, a response to the "70% of Americans view Islam as the terrorist religion".

What I was implying was, given the lack of education and a biased media, I can see how and why this happens. I'd say this is relevant to the thread

I suppose, if my perception of Christianity was based on the Westboro church or the KKK my view may be a little distorted. Or how about branding Catholicism as terrorist Christianity because of the IRA. Which of course would be both ilogical and nonsensical.

[optimus prime]

Well, well, Guru Besar Liam the English major strikes again 

Congratulations on figuring out how to change the color of the text.  Now try spellcheck  ..GURU PENGLIMA WARRIOR TEACHER

Hi Guru Penglima Warrior Teacher

Thanks for the advice, when I'm working out spell check, will I send you a online atlas so you can work out where England and Ireland are so you don't get mix up, as Guru Besar Liam lives in Dublin.

Hi Krisno

So far in private mail from "the brothers" you took me to be  Pendekar Sanders, Guru Besar Liam,Sgt. Major (MAP), Chris Martin, Bram2, and a few others. My online name I go by is "Optimus Prime" Brother Bram knows who I am as I've been following his online discussion through many many forums, and we have cross paths a few years back.

I decided that this forum would be a good place to begin discussion, and to hopefully bring peace by finding common ground. But as usual as in the past, this will take time, hopefully it can be sorted before Bram gets ban once again. I will follow your words with keen interest and hope to see no more contradictions. More can be done with a kind gesture than a scorn. Do you really want to sort things out or want to score pointsPlease my friend look into your heart and tell me.

Thanks for calling me a dude to answer your question who am IThe name "Optimus Prime" contains the answer.

Optimus Prime

A heart thats looks into shadows will only see darkness, a heart that looks to the sun will see the brightness.

[Gajah]

I decided that this forum would be a good place to begin discussion, and to hopefully bring peace by finding common ground. But as usual as in the past, this will take time, hopefully it can be sorted before Bram gets ban once again. I will follow your words with keen interest and hope to see no more contradictions. More can be done with a kind gesture than a scorn. Do you really want to sort things out or want to score points. Please my friend look into your heart and tell me.

  I do believe we are getting somewhere at last

[Rebo Paing]

I do believe we are getting somewhere at last

Unfortunately Gajah ... that is not the point. The man still hides in shadows and enjoys the melodramatic ... heheh.
He calls himself "friend", but he is no friend of mine as we have not gone through the process where friendship develops (in my opinion). I will not credit this "relationship" by calling him an enemy either.  Point of fact is that I do not care about him, one way or the other.

However, I agree with his observation that "more can be done with a kind gesture than with scorn".

I've become aware of the full extent of the history of this debate, long before I ever came on the scene and I have come to the conclusion that it is pointless to continue to waste energies on this subject. 

Salam and cheerio,

Krisno

N.B. Gajah, are you on milis silat indonesia, was that you who is a 100% jalmo manungso? Heheh.