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Author Topic: A wire in the blood  (Read 16578 times)

Bobbe

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A wire in the blood
« on: 28/07/2007 15:07 »
Before I post anything on a forum, or even my own blog, I always look at what I am trying to say and analyze it for glaring errors or logical fallacies. I want to say what I mean concisely, and consider all affected parties involved. I also will usually write an article or response, and then wait a day before posting so if I wrote something in anger I can return to it and shave off any malice I might have added. Therefore, if I am obscene, bitter, backbiting or flaming, it will be because I MEANT to be, not out of reflexive impulse, or anger.

When Bram first announced this forum going up, I thought “Great, we can finally understand things from his point of view, perhaps we were too hasty in our judgment of this one person, maybe now he will speak clearly on Pencak Silat without the arrogance that was so prevalent in his other posts elsewhere.”

So…

After reading most (not all) of the posts here, in both Bahasa Indonesia and English, and having heard the posts and responses from other forums as well, I waited over three weeks to actually SAY something here.

I’m sorry. There are about three people on this forum who have a modicum of my respect.

The rest of you can get stuffed.

Most of you on this board have attacked the American aspect of Pencak Silat, slandered the people who pioneered this art in America and spit on our efforts to find the source of things. You call us uninformed, unskilled or just plain liars. You smile and wink at each other, whispering amongst yourselves about how you’re the “real deal”, congratulating each other on putting one over on the Bule Gila and their worthless martial arts. Some of you simply love the spotlight, and cannot conceive of a Bule actually getting things right, let alone being competent in Silat.

You say “Misrepresentations being corrected” but I have to think…Who watches the watchers? As I look around on this board, I see rampant and unchecked malice on almost every posting. Nothing is “corrected”, at minimum you are simply offering a separate point of view. At most, willful falsehoods.

Say what you want about AMERICANS doing Silat in AMERICA, and how we got the titles wrong. Whoop-de-S**t. Many of us oh-so lowly round eyes have traveled, worked, paid, bled and suffered in Indonesia just to learn this art the best we could. We make yearly pilgrimages to the jungle for no other reason than understand that which we are accused of taking for granted. How many of you even bother to leave the Kampung, let alone travel to America? Our version of Pencak Silat bothers you so much? You feel slighted because we don’t understand things? THEN PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS, GET OVER HERE AND SHOW US! I have traveled thousands of miles, bribed policemen, dodged street gangs, trained for hours on end without rest, busted my ass, almost gone bankrupt, stung by scorpions, caught dysentery, ate weird things, been stabbed and bled profusely on the Padepokan floor just to learn this art. My bruises have bruises, and I usually develop a limp after a week in Bandung from leg locks and attacks. In short, I have done my part. Who amongst you can say the same?

Many of us bring as much understanding back with us as we can, and spread it the best we know how. We are used to a set rank structure, something much more stringent than the laissez-faire method used in Indonesia. To this end, many of us have attempted to create something useful and respectful of the mother country, even if it is misguided. Instead of guidance and suggestions we are offered ridicule and scorn. We are told to become Muslim, because that’s Indonesian culture. We are then told it won’t matter anyway, because “only an Indonesian can understand this art”. Yeah, right.

I have news for you, and those with understanding can gain wisdom from it: Our (American) culture is just as valid as yours, and no less worthy of a little respect. Nobody has to “Convert” to ANYTHING to learn Silat, I don’t care how Muslim the country of origin is. That’s as retarded as saying you must convert to Christianity before you board an Airplane, or Catholicism before you eat a cannoli. After all, WE invented THAT. It’s certainly our culture. So the next time you spout something like “Not converting to Islam is an insult to us” take a second to think about WHO you are saying that to…You just might be insulting them.

Pencak Silat is a series of body mechanics (Badan Fisika) that can be applied by almost ANYBODY. God doesn’t give a rip HOW you train, there is no such thing as a Deity-endorsed martial art. And since I HAVE been to Cimande village (Tarik Kolot) and was accepted among them sans Islamic conversion, and trained with people who were just happy I was there, and ate with Muslims who accepted me as a human brother…Well, I might suggest that your point of view about Islamic conversion before learning Cimande style lacks a certain truth.

And that post about our “improper” titles…You know what, this is America. If we are even giving it a halfway decent attempt at hormat to the mother country, we should be praised, not ridiculed. Do you have something better to offer? Then do so without acting as if it somehow puts you on a higher level than us, because it doesn’t. If I go into a restaurant and order my French toast in French, does that make it even more delicious?

So then, by calling something that is Indonesian in origin by an American name, will that reduce the effectiveness? Even if it’s taught by Christians? Or worse, NONBELIEVERS LIKE ME?!?!

This business about Indonesians being the only ones who can understand true Silat because of the spiritual side…What nonsense!

But you see, ALL martial arts, from EVERY country, claim a spiritual connection at some point or another. Over half claim to be endorsed by God(s) himself. So in this Islam and Pencak Silat are in no sense profound, they are in fact quite common. As Indonesians, perhaps you can’t see that, but in America (where we get every martial art in the world and usually 100 variants of it) we see it every day. So the big emphasis for us is COMBAT EFFECTIVENESS, not SPIRITUAL HOCUS-POCUS.

Furthermore, not only is this America, it’s America in the year 2007. If the internet has taught us anything, it’s that people are the same all over the world. We have access to information now that even my best teachers at the height of their abilities didn’t have, and we can make educated choices. You could get away with MUCH more spiritual crap about 20 years ago & nobody would have said a word. Not a peep. We would have swallowed the whole “convert to Islam” bit without gagging once. Any Tom, Dick or Haji could come over here, open a restaurant or a Laundromat, claim to know martial arts and we would be on our knees for weeks, paying whatever amount, just for a taste. Sorry, but Pencak Silat is a late entry into the race, and most of the pie has been spoken for. The only thing that will save it in America is straight talk and realistic appraisal of it’s combat effectiveness, not some strange variant of religious martial training. We can get that easy, without going to Indonesia to get it. Islam is in America, in case you missed it. But it exists side-by-side with all other religions. Over here, you get to choose.

Do you know why Pa Herman was so popular over here? We had other Silat people here, you know, although they were scarce. He wasn’t exactly the first. But I’ll tell you why he is still hands-down the most universally respected Guru excepting maybe Dan Inosanto.

He didn’t hide anything.

Unlike the plethora of Dutch-Indos who (usually) couldn’t be trusted to tell what time it was, Pa Herman would give you the truth about anything. You ask, he answered.

He loved his country, he loved his culture, he loved his art, and wanted nothing more than for us lowly Americans to be able to represent it properly. He exposed us to as much of Indonesian culture as he could possibly carry on his back, and lived in abject poverty for most of his life in America trying to spread the word of traditional Pencak Silat. He lived his life for Pencak Silat. How many of you can say the same? As far as I’m concerned, anybody teaching Silat right now should sign a part of their paycheck over to Pa (if he was still alive) he practically gave you the job. On top of that, he used his funds to feed a village, not make himself rich. His school was free to Indonesians, only foreigners had to pay. I look around and I see a scarce few willing to really put in the WORK needed to show what real Silat is. But I can see you running your mouths about how we’re not doing it right well enough.

There it is, that’s it. This squid’s out of ink. I still go to Indonesia, because I too love the culture. I still train Pencak Silat because I too love the art. I still eat Rendang dan Nasi Goreng as well as Pisang Goreng because…Well, it’s delicious. But of all the people I have met in Indonesia and Malaysia, of everybody I have crossed hands with and called “brother”, from every Muslim Indonesian, Esoteric Sunda and every Garuda-worshipping Balinese, out of all those people who have influenced my martial understanding and my religious tolerance…

Well, I’m glad my first exposure to the Indo-Malay arts wasn’t from one of you guys.

I hope this board becomes everything that you advertised it to be. I hope you succeed in bringing Silat players of all countries and beliefs together in understanding. It would be nice to compare instead of contrast.

But…You know all that stuff you’re accusing us Americans of?

Look in a mirror.


Bobbe Edmonds
Edmonds Martial Arts Academy
www.EMAA.us
http://currythief.blogspot.com

EricB

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #1 on: 28/07/2007 16:40 »
Hello Bobbe,

glad for you, you have a good teacher like Kang Bambang  [top]

But why are you so offended, did someone mention your name also ?
I'm as white as you are but I'm not hurt by what people say  ::)

Can't you imagine that there are a lot of pencak Silat practioners (guru's) in the USA stepping on Indonesian toes ?
People are placing questionmarks if new schools/academies selling tapes, wheapons and other stuff to promote their pencak silat.

An art is not for sale, it becomes a part of who you are in real live,
Not one of my students have paid me one cent, and that is because I don't want it, I got everything for free also from my teachers in Indonesia.
I'm just happy to see the development of my students, that makes me feel good, and if those guys visit my teachers I don't have to be ashamed.
I still have a job to do, I dont do this for the money, but pure for myself, I'm just an idiot who loves this thing.
I didn't buy my pencak silat ...... so I don't sell it, I'm just greatfull I have had the opportunity to learn this: "bless my teachers"  ^:)^

About religion: people who are changing religion because of an art are idiots, you can learn everything in Indonesia ..... the only thing you need to do is earn respect from the people who are teaching you, If someone reaches that level; doors will be opened and they will get whatever fits for them.

But Bobbe, what is your meaning about some dudes in the USA, you have to admit that there are some weirdos walking around
You have been to Indonesia a few times, but did those others do too ????
Or did they only study from Video's and DVD's


Excuse me for my bad english, I'm just a crazy Dutch bule
 


BTW,
I looked into the mirror, otherwise the few hairs I have left are all messed up  [lucu]

*
« Last Edit: 28/07/2007 16:44 by EricB »

AbdUllah

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #2 on: 28/07/2007 17:12 »
A+ for Eric  [top]

There are about three people on this forum who have a modicum of my respect.
The rest of you can get stuffed.

Nice to meet you too   :D

Bobbe

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #3 on: 28/07/2007 17:33 »
Hey Eric, thanks for the reply. I know who you are, by the way, and I always meant to tell you...On your links page...I think you mean "If you find a DEAD link" Brother, if I find a DEATH link, I'll probably have to tell you from beyond the grave! ;D

Quote
But why are you so offended, did someone mention your name also ?

No, not. But what was and is being said is alot closer to a smear campaign than anything said on the American boards. And on several posts I fins a recurring theme..."Americans don't know...Americans aren't as good as...Americans can't ever..." Being one of those said "Americans" as well as a pesilat, I cannot help but take offense. But it's the same old story...I went there, so I have some authority from which to speak. Have they been here? Trained with whom? Until then, this argument is terribly lopsided.

In other words, there is a reason I don't try to teach people how to fly a plane: I've never flown one. So how can THEY speak with authority about Silat in America?

Quote
I'm just happy to see the development of my students, that makes me feel good, and if those guys visit my teachers I don't have to be ashamed.

Well said, my sentiments exactly. Although I charge a base amount for my time! However, of all my students, less than half actually PAY. Most by now are training for free.

Quote
About religion: people who are changing religion because of an art are idiots, you can learn everything in Indonesia ..... the only thing you need to do is earn respect from the people who are teaching you, If someone reaches that level; doors will be opened and they will get whatever fits for them.

I hear you, and I agree. I usually just go in with my head bowed and my eyes down, and people are happy to teach me.

Quote
But Bobbe, what is your meaning about some dudes in the USA, you have to admit that there are some weirdos walking around

Oh, seven hells YES. I don't deny this, by the way. However, Indonesia has it's share as well, and I have seen people claim outlandish things on BOTH sides of the board. Remind me to tell you about the Pamacan master in Bandung who wouldn't let me stab him after he swore it wouldn't hurt. Also, a few headcases tend to give an unrealistic picture of the whole thing. There are quite a number of great schools and practitioners here in the U.S., and growing exponentially, but you never hear anything about them because they don't advertise. We have a well-represented pool of talent that trains hard and produces good students. And as I mentioned in my earlier post, it is no less worthy of respect than it's Indonesian counterparts.

Quote
You have been to Indonesia a few times, but did those others do too Huh??
Or did they only study from Video's and DVD's

You make a good point Eric, and I admit that I am an advocate of going to the country itself to study. Having said that, there is nothing WRONG with learning from a DVD, if you can't afford the travel. But I think you mean the people who claim horrifically elevated ranks with no travel at all...And yes, there are those as well.

Pencak Silat in America is coming of age, faster than we can govern it. You will ALWAYS get a few nutbars, even if they studied traditional Silat in Indonesia. I mean, although it's a good criteria, it's certianly not a deciding factor.

For me, there are only two rules: Open hearts, and open minds.


Bobbe Edmonds
Edmonds Martial Arts Academy
www.EMAA.us
http://currythief.blogspot.com

Bobbe

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #4 on: 28/07/2007 17:36 »
Quote
Nice to meet you too

Liar.


Bobbe Edmonds
Edmonds Martial Arts Academy
www.EMAA.us
http://currythief.blogspot.com

AR

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #5 on: 28/07/2007 18:18 »
Hi Bobbe,
I understand your point of view, so many differences between two cultures so we needs an understanding to overcome the differences, also we need to "agree to disagree". The people who learn and practising pencak silat are coming from all over the world, Europe, US, Canada, even from middle east. When they came to Indonesia they can chose and pick what pencak style and guru they want to learn, it is their choices, not us. They can choose any perguruan that not oblige them to convert to Islam such as setia hati, kps nusantara, etc, again the choices is yours. So please do not take this issue as we know that the real issues is not IT. The real issue and problem that arise in the past decades is "only" misconception about pencak silat and many untruly claim from some pencak silat practitioner dude (sorry, I won't call them as pendekar) in US, in particular. So as pencak silat lover, I agree with kang eric, if somebody stepping on my toes, I would be warn them, or if they gave you the wrong conception, it is our duty to make it right. 
I have spent many years outside Indonesia, and know how to deal with people who only knew a small bit portion of this art and claim himself as pendekar. You should be grateful that you know such a great pendekar like Kang Herman Suwanda, you can see from him as a true pendekar. I am glad you can see the big difference between Sanders and Kang Herman.
Pencak silat as a martial art system have two side of coin, the good one, represent by pendekar and the other one represent by jagoan of jawara. We understand that Sanders is not represent the good coin, there are many pencak silat practitioner in the US on the good coin side  :D, we are aware of that.
This misconception things also happen in Indonesia and any other countries, so let us learning together, as I am always be a student of this art.


Salam Hormat,

AR

http://www.silatcenter.com


bradlee

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #6 on: 28/07/2007 20:38 »
Hallo Bobbe, it's nice to know you and to see you post something here.
It's true what Eric said about religion. You can still learn and find the right teacher whether you are moslem or not. And it's also true, some Perguruan have a rule, only a moslems can learn they style. But many time, it has exception.

So, let's talk about the real "hot" topik. I think, I undestand what your post about and why several people here post so hard about Mr. Sanders. I don't hate americans nor Mr. Sanders. Even, I want americans and Mr. Sanders have a right concept about pencak silat.

I'm always trying in many forum to correct the wrong comprehension about silat and post what I think true, based on oral tradition and what I've accepted from my teachers.

For simply examples I'll use your site:
http://www.emaa.us/Bam/Splash/Sunda%20Framset.htm

There you wrote:
Mahdi, Rikesan, Banjang, Sayabandahr, Timbongan

I'm understand what you mean, but right are: Madi (after Bang Madi), Ririkesan (tehnik look like joint lock), Benjang (traditional Grappling from east Bandung), Sabandar(Sundanese)/Syahbandar(Ind.), and Timbangan (tehnik developed by K.H.Anggakusumah).

Those are simply examples.
The "hard to get" examples are like what Mr. Sanders claimed. And I think, we know why. Please don't take it wrong. I just want pencak silat... my culture, my art and a heritage from my elders, spread in a right comprehension, use for a good reasons and in the right way.

Most of you on this board have attacked the American aspect of Pencak Silat, slandered the people who pioneered this art in America and spit on our efforts to find the source of things. You call us uninformed, unskilled or just plain liars. You smile and wink at each other, whispering amongst yourselves about how you’re the “real deal”, congratulating each other on putting one over on the Bule Gila and their worthless martial arts. Some of you simply love the spotlight, and cannot conceive of a Bule actually getting things right, let alone being competent in Silat.

For me, there are only two rules: Open hearts, and open minds.

Probably, You missed something. Open hearts, open minds and not to generalize
« Last Edit: 28/07/2007 21:01 by bradlee »
"Ti Iwung Nungtung Ka Padung, Ti Kanteh Dugi Ka Boeh, Diajar Hirup Nu Teu Mawa Ceda, Lir Ibarat Sinar Mustika, Bari Nyusul Nu Ngaliwat, Malikeun Panyangka Nu Sulaya, Ngabagi Bagja Kanu Sangsara"

Guru Penglima Warrior Tea

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #7 on: 29/07/2007 00:00 »
Bobbe,

Honestly I didn't read your entire post due to my short attention span.  I understand your panties are in a knot about this forum.  Thems' the breaks, dude.  You never have to come here again.

As long as people like sanders make outrageous claims and statements about being "better than 95% of native silat players" and that the style they made up a few years ago has been tested in "bloody combat in the jungle for hundreds of years" and posing in a sunda groom's coat with a balinese keris and jawa hat and jazz like that, then the people here will take them to task.  If you don't happen to like the way they do it, thats a YP. 

Not much else to say.

Guru Penglima Warrior Teacher

puggiotto

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #8 on: 29/07/2007 01:56 »
Ciao Bobbe
you must  be a very enthusiastic silat player and you have to love silat very much.

But, there are many valuable lessons to be learnt from Nature.

Trees distribute their fruit and grant their shade to every one, even to those who lay their axe are them with intention to destroy them!

Manteins suffer heat, rain and storm without demur.

Birds don't hoard for years together, they don't use more than is absolutely necessary for their survival.

Nature is your school, your laboratory, the gate way of liberation and the reflection of God's manifold mayesty.

Seek to know the lessons it's ready to teach, all things in Nature are God just as you are.

Silat too, it grows in accordance with the laws of Nature.

So every act is divine, all work is worship build the mansion of your life on the strong foundation of the faith that all creation is Divine.

Please, dear Bobbe, don't forget that everybody has his own world

Better or worst, who don't care....

Because.... it's more difficult to let them there where they are, rather then change them....

For this reason, Silat choose the student, the student does not choose Silat.

Silat grows in accordance with the laws of Nature and it is free from the illusions of the mind.

Experiencing, liberation from one chosen path is never easy, Silat is no exception.

Davide

Gajah

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #9 on: 29/07/2007 04:56 »
Hi Bobbe,

At least you could never be accused of any BS. Straight to the point and straight down the line as ever :).

For what it's worth I always try to point out that non-Indonesian persilat may just simply 'get things a bit wrong' from time to time. After all, we are learning a martial art and not cultural anthropology or advanced Austronesian linguistics.

I'm sure most Indonesians understand this happens and aren't really that bothered by it, but may obviously try to correct mistakes.

And yes, there are certainly silat GR in Indonesia too...I've met a couple of these.

There are also Indonesian guru who will not teach non-muslims. That's fine by me. Up to them, they don't have to teach me, I don't have to convert. However, where are they? Strangely, I've never come across them in person Indonesia ???

I have been taught without issue by a couple of very devout muslim. Religion was never mentioned.

However, Bobbe, there have been outrageous and arrogant claims, by a few American pesilat. We all know the majority are genuine and do not make these claims. The problem is, it is human nature to 'tar all with the same brush'.

But what of those who do make such claims? Is it fair that they may taint others reputations?

I don't know the answers, but I sometimes feel disappointed and uneasy about some of the things I read.


« Last Edit: 29/07/2007 05:17 by Gajah »

Rebo Paing

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #10 on: 29/07/2007 04:58 »
Hi Bobbe,
I am happy you are here and I have always thought of you as an honest man who means well. If you were wayang, I think you would be Kumbokarno, but you need to read the Ramayana first hehe! And that is a compliment. (Sanders and his ilk would be the Cakil's of this world  ... and that's not a compliment ).

Welcome to the forum! But please, I don't think that there is anything to get upset about.
Like you, I too do not appreciate generalisations, where-ever they come from, whether it be generalisations about Americans or Indonesians.

I also agree that one does not have to put on the coat of an entire belief system in order to aquire body knowledge. When people makes it a requirement, we are free to make a choice, but I agree that there should be no bad-mouthing from either side on this point. Hey, religion and politics are always scary topics to begin the communication journey ... no? ;D

BTW Christians are also considered "People of the Book" by Muslimin, and there are Catholic inspired Kejawen   perguruan in Indonesia as well (or is that Kejawen inspired Catholicism? ). Non Muslim perguruan in Indonesia do exist.

On the Sanders issue ... the arguments have been going on for a long time.
One problem that I've had in the past regarding this issue, is that initially when the issue was brought up about the inconsistencies, the response was straight away hysteria and name calling ... from my perspective the hysteria would always begin from the Sanders camp, and then the thread would be closed ... but the pattern would always be ... without fail, that Bram would always be the FALL guy. That to my perspective was unacceptable as well.

And then there was all the rubbish about the chest thumping that began from certain Irish friends ... who were very keen (on the Internet) to dish out a challenge ... hehe. I know that anyone who has experienced a combat situation will rarely (if never) be so rash ... because (I know that you can appreciate this), EVERYONE loses sometimes, and a mistake/miscalculation leading something terminal can  happen in a blink of an eye.

This sort of Jagoan environment killed discussion from the beginning ... and I drew the conclusion that the Sanders mob just weren't interested in talking ... but IMO, they did retaliate with slander.

So ... what should be done about the situation, if you feel that your culture is being misrepresented? Most people would counter in as positive a manner as possible, like start a forum for discussion (Sahabat Silat via FP2STI) to keep traditional silat on the tracks, and I believe that is what has happened.

I support this effort 100% ... and I'm not even a tradtional silat guy by this forum definition ... but maybe if my children are good in 100 years hey? ;D.

I accept that tempres have flared (on all sides), but if I were adjudicating this situation, I would argue that the originating culture has more claim to be concerned and to correct mis-representation when they encounter it, ESPECIALLY in the era of massive Internet communication.

We ALL appreciate the sincerity of people (bule and non bule) when it happens. Sincerity and open and polite communication is the only way to travel. [top]

Salam hangat,
Krisno
« Last Edit: 29/07/2007 05:05 by Rebo Paing »

Ranggalana

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #11 on: 29/07/2007 05:53 »
......
When Bram first announced this forum going up, I thought “Great, we can finally understand things from his point of view, perhaps we were too hasty in our judgment of this one person, maybe now he will speak clearly on Pencak Silat without the arrogance that was so prevalent in his other posts elsewhere.”

So…

....
I’m sorry. There are about three people on this forum who have a modicum of my respect.

The rest of you can get stuffed.

Most of you on this board have attacked the American aspect of Pencak Silat, slandered the people who pioneered this art in America and spit on our efforts to find the source of things. You call us uninformed, unskilled or just plain liars. You smile and wink at each other, whispering amongst yourselves about how you’re the “real deal”, congratulating each other on putting one over on the Bule Gila and their worthless martial arts. Some of you simply love the spotlight, and cannot conceive of a Bule actually getting things right, let alone being competent in Silat.

You say “Misrepresentations being corrected” but I have to think…Who watches the watchers? As I look around on this board, I see rampant and unchecked malice on almost every posting. Nothing is “corrected”, at minimum you are simply offering a separate point of view. At most, willful falsehoods......

Look in a mirror.


Bobbe, you lie!

When I first announced this forum on the Tjimindie forum, I said that the Indonesian pesilat had got their act together, and you quoted that sentence and remarked : NOT IN A MILLION YEARS BRAM.

That, I think is the truth of what you think of Indonesia and Indonesians.

Because of that you miss the gist of all the talk about American pesilats here. There is no post on this forum that someone generalizes American pesilat as worthless liars. These words are yours Bobbe! Maybe you know less Indonesian than you claim and don't really understand the posts here?

Misrepresentations being corrected: the case is Jim Ingram claiming to be Guru Besar Mustika Kwitang while Ayah Zakaria is still teaching in Jakarta. Jim Ingram stops calling himself Guru Besar of Mustika Kwitang, problem gone. Do you understand? We want you white guys to get things right anmd not, as you accuse, the other way.

There is nothing wrong with correcting mistakes, Bobbe. When YOU go on the internet and teach people that Mas is not an honorific term, and I come correct you, you should be thankfull. But maybe you have inflated your ego too much in your little circle, as a Bahasa expert. Maybe this is why you read through the Indonesian part of this forum and fail to sense the real problem, thus you begin your post by generalizing in anger rather than clearing up misconceptions.

BTW, Cimande is and was originally deeply connected to da'wah and syiar of Islam. Now, Sanders makes a link in his new Q-A page put up in response to discussions here. Guess where the link is to? The anti Islam site called answering-islam. Does he mean to be anti Islam? He comes here disguised, ask him to explain.

Bobe, I know these things from the INTERNET. It is stupid of you to suggest that I have to go train in the USA before making comments about US pesilats. Their views and claims and misconceptions are on the web for all to see.

Bobbe, imagine  you were an Indonesian pesilat. With your pit-bull character displayed in your post above you would be the first to ravage people like Sanders. Not many of them in the US and that is why I use his name rather than generalize. His outrageous claims and misconceptions that prove his ignorance in the culture of silat are made public by himself on the web.

You are defending a liar Bobbe, and it makes you look as sad and stupid as you possibly can be.

Semoga lekas sembuh,
Bram.

batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

EricB

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #12 on: 29/07/2007 16:12 »
Quote
You have been to Indonesia a few times, but did those others do too ??
Or did they only study from Video's and DVD's

You make a good point Eric, and I admit that I am an advocate of going to the country itself to study. Having said that, there is nothing WRONG with learning from a DVD, if you can't afford the travel. But I think you mean the people who claim horrifically elevated ranks with no travel at all...And yes, there are those as well.
This is something where I don't agree with you,

One can only study an art through a teacher/instructor in real, you have to feel the movement, and you have to be corrected.
This is what a DVD teacher can't do, the result is that students think they are doing OK, but it look like shit or is without any effectivenes.

If you have taped/recorded your trainingssessions, then you have something to look back on,
the same goes for the small but important notebook.  :)

I have them also, but never shared it with others, and I will never do, not even to my own students.
Everyone has to make his own remarks in order to remember the small parts you might have been forgotten.

After years of training you dont need it anymore: "Gerak Lahir" becomes "Gerak Bathin"

But one must never forget ...... we are only human and students, I'm stil learning everyday :)


puggiotto

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #13 on: 29/07/2007 16:38 »
Hallo Majapahit,
which is real? This or that?
I don't know it.
But what I know is the beacon of the Spirit of our Art is the light-house for the storm ships carrying the students of Silat like me across the furious waves of the ocean of life.
Instead of earning that light and saving himself from wretch, man is getting lost in travails, torrents of trouble, worry and agony and vain voyages in search of attaining the absent treasure.
Which is real? This or that?
Unless that light is present ever with pesilat, unless efforts are made to have is shining clear in the heart.
Pesilat is wasting the great chance he has been awarded. One wonders whether he has to appreciate or discard the charms of Nature and the external world, whethe to laugh or weep at their illusory attractions.
We pride ourself on ours capacity to know everything, but, we have failed to know ths truth about Nature.
Of course, every one desires all his energies to defend his world, for securing peace and joy. But, he elude his grasp. He spins like a top, he is immersed in incessant effort; but what does he win? Nothing.
He forgets the special mission of man, the mission for which he has been specially endowed, and rotates in fruitless adventure, and I think that "A wire in the blood" , with lies and truth is one of this fruitless adventure.

davide



optimus prime

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Re: A wire in the blood
« Reply #14 on: 30/07/2007 05:14 »
Hi Krisno

And then there was all the rubbish about the chest thumping that began from certain Irish friends ... who were very keen (on the Internet) to dish out a challenge ... hehe. I know that anyone who has experienced a combat situation will rarely (if never) be so rash ... because (I know that you can appreciate this), EVERYONE loses sometimes, and a mistake/miscalculation leading something terminal can  happen in a blink of an eye.... Krisno

Maybe you should talk to your brother about issuing challenges, as on another forum (Martial Arts Planet)Kiai challenge others ...

"You are a keyboard warrior, or is Mas Tris' words: wet pu*sy. A mature human would not conduct himself like you do. As a person, I would fight 10 keyboardwarriors  any day, anywhere, anytime.... ""Kiai / Bram :)p


When you go around making challenges like this, you can get call up on it. What is  good for the goose in good for the gander. Your brother is not as innocent as you make out.  ::)

I will keep bringing up these contradictions, you and your brother keep making. [top]

Optimus Prime

A true heart thats divided will never fully work.






« Last Edit: 30/07/2007 05:25 by optimus prime »

 

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