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Author Topic: Cimande  (Read 18998 times)

Ranggalana

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #15 on: 08/01/2008 13:25 »
Josh, I modified my last post and deleted the words you objected to.

Do you find it acceptable now?

Salam hangat,
ranggalana
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

mantis

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #16 on: 08/01/2008 13:46 »
Yes ,thank  you . Really , lets get back to training .  [top]

Michael Lee

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #17 on: 08/01/2008 20:52 »
To tell you the humble truth Michael translation is one of the things I do for money and because of that I can't do it for free - lest it become a habit and I lose my livelyhood.

100% Acceptable Bram.  It was just a thought on my part to try and get some very interesting and very relevant cultural exchange going.  However, as you do translation for a living, I have absolutely no problem with requiring compensation.  If you came to me for sales training, I would require compensation as well. 

I can't read people's minds, Michael, but I would suppose that some people from Cimande are reluctant to join in your thread because of other things, not only the language barrier. It would be wise for you to try and get the bigger picture, not just rely on Sanders' experience here. Talk to people like Eric B who knows Bogor like the back of his hand, or Gorka.

I can't read people's minds either.  That's why I ask them directly (like I asked you directly to translate).  Also, I generally ask lots of questions too.  Sanders knowledge is actually extremely large.  Though he is often one of the first resources I go too, he's hardly the only one.  Example, this very frickin' thread!  I started this thread for the expressed purpose of learning directly from the source.  I've also made several attempts to talk with Eric B and we've actually had a few inter-changes.  I will probably continue to try and talk with him unless tells me to go away.   ;D

Remember, all the time you guys were attacking me for 'negativity' ... you were all decidedly being negative too! 

Very very true Bram.  I think we've all grown up a bit with this dialogue.  However, your statement begs a question:  What came first, the chicken of the egg?  We feel that you started the negative discussion with us.  If you feel likewise, then so be it.  The larger question is, where do we go from here?  PCP isn't going anywhere, and you sure as shit aren't either!  So, we can either make our mutual best effort to be civil towards each other, agree to disagree, and maybe even learn from each other.  Or, we can start the pointless bickering again and probably both get banned from this website.  Not that Silat won't be able to go on without us, but I'd like to think that we'd be missed.  Another unfortunate alternative is that our "discussion" turns enough people off that they don't bother coming onto this site, and thereby miss out on all the good things many people have to say here. 
 
I think you all know that 'keroyokan' or setting on someone as a gang (like PCP players habitually do to me) is far from silat values.

To tell you the truth, I learned how to do this from you.  I'm sure that's not what you and your brother were attempting to do, but the wolf pack analogy was what it looked like to me when I first started reading this site.  Optimus prime was the sole person for many months against the tide of you, your brother, Aikijutisu, Guru Penglima Warrior Tea, Toupee and whoever else joined in on the johnny pile.  Mantis and Matin made a few posts, as did that Selemdenger (sp?) guy (who had absolutely no association with us and did not reply to 2 my attempts to contact him), but basically it was Optimus against everyone.  In my book, his seemingly harsh words are completely understandable in this light.

So there you have it Bram... Now.... for the love of all that's sacred and holy...

CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK TO TALK ABOUT TRAINING!?!?!?    ;D

Thank you everyone!  I'll be here all week... and don't forget to tip your bartenders and waitresses.   [lucu]

Michael

Ranggalana

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #18 on: 08/01/2008 21:46 »
Back to training:

Cimande players are famous for having very strong and hard forearms. Traditionally teachers beat the arms with black sugar cane and then rub them down with balur Cimande. Balur Cimande is wierd stuff and it seems that differemt people make a different recipe, that contains, among other things that I have heard, banana trunk and earth worms. I have been told that the balur is potent because of the prayers put into it by the maker.

My question to Cimande players overseas is how do you condition your forearms and what do you use for balur? Do you make it yourself? I have seen US recipes of balur before.

Cimande players are also famous in Indonesia for setting broken bones and mending slipped muscles. Do you do that in PCP as well?

Warm regards,
Ranggalana.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Michael Lee

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #19 on: 08/01/2008 22:10 »
VERY interesting!   [top]

Here's the limited amount of what I know on the subject.  Here in the US, we do devote time to forearm conditioning.  Most of the conditioning that I've been exposed to consists of crashing forearms.  This is often done by practicing jurus (incidentally, why do I sometimes see people write jurus-jurus instead of just jurus?  Does it signify something different when you write it twice?  Also, is the 'S' on the end part of the word itself, or does it make the word plural?). 

I've never heard of made in America Balur oil, but I don't doubt its existence.  I know that our group, PCP, has had Balur oil shipped from Indonesia, but I've never had the opportunity to use any.  I asked about it not to long ago and was told that our stock had been depleted. 

To my knowledge, none of the leaders in the PCP have any particular knowledge about setting bones, outside of the fact that some of us work in healthcare.  Guru Will Quan is a paramedic.  As such, he has a lot of healing knowledge.  Jerry Jacbos is a licensed massage therapist and does several types of other healing practices.  He can better answer that question that I can.  I know that Guru Ted Walls is a licensed massage therapist as well.

Also, I know that Pendekar Sanders has some training in these areas, but I don't know any of the specifics.

My training consists of my excellent driving skills (I'm a very excewent dwiver).  If someone gets hurt, I can get them to a hospital faster than any ambulance.   8)

mantis

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #20 on: 08/01/2008 22:28 »
Actualy Pendekar Sandrs used to bring in a lot of Balur Oil  that came from Pendekar Mama . He said that as well as  about prayers and that  some are supposed to  even put the dirt from arround the grave of Em. Kahir  in it . I remember  their  were two kinds a white and a dark variation . The dark one had a more pungent smell . Also in the usa their was a place in Oregon making a variation from  a teacher of another Aliran who came back from Java with the formula. But it also was a bit different . We use breathing exerciises to raise our inner power and this can be used to heal . I think Russian  Silat told a story of Pendekar Sanders in Russia who healed a bad wrist of a student . I have used it on pulled muscles and aches and pains , it can also be applied to the eyes through the finger tips to stengthen them . I like this part of the art as well . I can also say we train a lot to put the hardest part of our bodies against the soft parts of the opponent , called the principle  of the thorn , as when you grab a nice looking flower that has thorns on the stalk. Sometimes it is also called body armour in a more general way .

Ranggalana

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #21 on: 08/01/2008 22:36 »
... This is often done by practicing jurus (incidentally, why do I sometimes see people write jurus-jurus instead of just jurus?  Does it signify something different when you write it twice?  Also, is the 'S' on the end part of the word itself, or does it make the word plural?). 

I've never heard of made in America Balur oil, but I don't doubt its existence.  I know that our group, PCP, has had Balur oil shipped from Indonesia, but I've never had the opportunity to use any.  I asked about it not to long ago and was told that our stock had been depleted.  ...

There are two distinct words that get confused by Western pesilat. The first is Juru, which means 'a person who is skilled in ...." the word always comes with an identifier like juru-masak (masak means cook, so juru masak is Chef), juru-tulis: secretary, juru-mudi: driver. So juru IS NOT part of silat vocab. Jurus is a movement that has the conotation of a) direction and b) time, and is a silat word. Jurus-jurus is the Indonesian plural of jurus. In Indonesian mostly to make something plural you repeat it.

I heard that Mushtaq Ali has a working recipe for made in USA balur ... I think Todd Elner make it too but without the dirt from Abah Choiruddin's grave. 

Hope this helps,
Ranggalana
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

EricB

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #22 on: 09/01/2008 01:45 »
Friends,

may I speak out my respect on how this topic is evolving  [top]
I'm very glad and happy to see that there are bridges been build here  :)

To reply Michaels question about translation: I think I could be able to do it, but I'm not a linguist like Bram, also after 2 weeks of sparetime (holiday season) I had to start again with my regular job.
I have to manage a team of engineers (± 125 men) and limited time during the week, so to do this it must be in the weekend, I also have my obligations to teach, and spend a little time with my family ;)

So if you don't mind I hope there is someone else to help you out with this translation things.

About Cimande, don't forget my silat is Padjadjaran, and yes Cimande is a big part of it, but I'm not a Cimande player.
I had the opportunity to go to Tarikolot and see a thing or 2, maybe its my fortune that I speak the language and have no trouble to get answers on the questions I had.

Wassalam,

pekir

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #23 on: 09/01/2008 05:31 »
All well and Good Michael but I will also point out that it would appear by the counter , your post was read over 100 times . I think ,although I am speculating , that those readers would not be on an English site unles they could read english ? So, maybe it would also help if those who DO speak English could also join in on a positive training post .  [top]

You are putting the workings of a forum upside down now Mantis. I'm pretty sure I was one of those over 100 times post readers. I choose to respond to a post if I have something to add or to question but never because I just want to be just positive..

On top of this your choice of words more or less suggest that people who are not participating in this post mostly respond in a negative sense in threads, who do you think you are??? A forum is still an 'open' invitation on which people can voluntarily join and take part.....

mantis

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #24 on: 09/01/2008 07:46 »
First I want to thank Bram and Erick for the response and I am glad also as to the way the thread is operating so I will not say much on Pekirs attempt to turn it arround , I mean after all the great posts here why go back to the beggining of  the thread to start a row ?  . As for who I am , just a forum reader making  an observation  in an attempt to get some of those 100 readers to join in in a positve way  that were saying nothing , when we had fifteen negaitve answers in one day before  :'(  I think it worked  ;D Even if you are not compelled to make positive posts ,doing  so I think  helps everyone  . I come away with a much better feeling about the site  and am trying to contribute so now I ask you to take the hostility  away PLEASE !!!!!  I wont engage you in it .Its clear Eriick does not want it so WHY ??????? Back to training. Bram , I asked Pendekar Sanders and you were correct it was his good friend Mushtaq Ali who made the Balur in the USA . Pendekar Sanders said the trouble we had with the Balur from Java was that it fermented ont he way over so many times the containers arrive exploded !!! He Said they tried a varierty of idea to vent it off and it worked some times . The Balur we got here never fermented like that so their must be a bit of a differance in the ingrediants . Some of the Balur from Java smelled to me a liitle liek Durian !!! If  you have smelled that you know what i mean  :P . But for mye I predered the Java Balur . You know we have a smattering of other systems in PCP from the Mas Jud Combinasi , not all Cimande , so we can try and talk a little on our Sera , what we get from Cikalong , the animal styles etc if anyone wants to know I can ask about that to Pendekar Sanders if I dont know the answer .Bram what can you tell us of your white crane , is this a Chinese -Indo version , all Chinese or attributed now to all Silat ? I realize sometimes the areas are grey .   

Ranggalana

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #25 on: 09/01/2008 08:12 »
....Bram what can you tell us of your white crane , is this a Chinese -Indo version , all Chinese or attributed now to all Silat ? I realize sometimes the areas are grey .   

As far as I know, White Crane silat was created by Suhu Subur Rahardja, by developing his family White Crane, Chinese system. Suhu's family was half Chinese, half Sundanese, for many generations. His Sundanese, Indonesian, English and Dutch, I think, were more fluent than his Hokkien - I never have heard Hokkien spoken except in the names of movements and some exercises, although Sundanese-Indonesian is tha main training hall language.

The kebatinan of PGB comes from the last Raja of Lombok, from Cimande, from Chinese traditions and also from Suhu's personal contemplation.

Salam hangat.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

mantis

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #26 on: 09/01/2008 08:33 »
Thank you Bram , we have some crane Jurus jurus in our system  from the Mas Jud art and I allways liked them . So it is now called Silat ,that is what I was curious about . I thought maybe it was called  a Kuntao art , but I had no idea .

pekir

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #27 on: 09/01/2008 14:29 »
First I want to thank Bram and Erick for the response and I am glad also as to the way the thread is operating so I will not say much on Pekirs attempt to turn it arround , I mean after all the great posts here why go back to the beggining of  the thread to start a row ? ............

Were is the hostility? the fact that I'm questioning your words in your post is neither hostile not is it out of the ordinary. This still is a forum.

Since when can I only respond to posts in threads when it is convenient for one of the previous posters or the smooth discussion. It's not like I responded after 6 months it was less than one fr*king day after your post. It wasn't me who directed a critical remark in capital letters at other forum members that was you. If you consider this starting a row, well  ???

I'm a big supporter of reasonable debates and keeping away from personal attacks as much as possible but if that means we can't object to others peoples posts anymore a forum has lost it's purpose. Don't mistake debate for hostility....

Ranggalana

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #28 on: 09/01/2008 14:49 »
...So it is now called Silat ,that is what I was curious about . I thought maybe it was called  a Kuntao art , but I had no idea .

The name Kuntaw doesn't really feature in Indonesia anymore. The more Chinese styles call themselves KungFu or Wushu and those who feel more Indonesian call themselves silat. PGB is a member of IPSI. We are also the only school in Indonesian Chinese communities who play the Kie Lin.

Also, I don't think I have ever read a negative post from Patrick. He always adds quality to a thread. When someone doesn't agree with you it doesn't mean he is your enemy. Your critics are your friends!

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Sabrang kidul

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #29 on: 09/01/2008 14:55 »
Mas Bram,
What is Kie Lin.....?

 

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