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Author Topic: Cimande  (Read 17469 times)

Michael Lee

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Cimande
« on: 28/12/2007 00:47 »
Hello Forum Members! 

There has been much talk about PCP, which as most of you know, is the style of Silat that I practice.  As many of you also know, Pukulan Cimande Pusaka is comprised of a few different elements.  The main component is Cimande as it was practiced by Mas Jud.  He called his style Cimande Combanisi or Sera Combanisi.  Another component of PCP is traditional Cimande as it is practiced by Pendekar Sukarma of Tarik Kolot village, West Java. 

I've titled this thread "Cimande" because I wish to start a fruitful discussion on the subject of traditional Cimande, or standard Cimande.  I am VERY interested in learning from the many forum member Cimande players whatever it is they are willing to share about techniques, training, Ilmu, terminology, or anything else surrounding traditional Cimande. 

In the spirit of keeping things positive, I'll also ask the posters to please limit their comments to sharing about their Silat.  Please do not offer comments on what may be wrong with others. 

To start things off, I want to share about my experience with a Kelid movement I did just last night while training.

In class, we combined a kelid type block/parrying movement with a sweep into something we cal a "sticky foot drill."  For this drill, the attacker moved backwards while throwing a punch at the defender.  The defending executes a Kelid parry with a forearm smash while at the same time, stepping one foot behind the attackers front foot.  A sweep is partially executed against the attackers front foot.  The attacker then moves his front foot back, throws a punch with the other arm, and the drill repeats itself. 

:)

I look forward to learning from everyone!

Michael
« Last Edit: 28/12/2007 02:09 by Michael Lee »

Michael Lee

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #1 on: 07/01/2008 21:26 »
It's come to my attention that the reason nobody has replied to this thread is because the people that are able to reply, don't read / write English. 

So I have a favor to ask...... 

Can somebody who is versed in both English and Indonesian act as a translator?  One of the purposes of this forum is to help educate us non-Indonesians on traditional Pencak Silat.  As such, I think all of us Bule (correct use?) would love to learn directly from the source.  So if someone is willing to translate these 2 posts of mine, and maybe even cue in the Indonesian speaking members, I think we might be able to get an intresting discussion going here.   :)

Thanks in advance!
Michael
« Last Edit: 07/01/2008 22:27 by Michael Lee »

mantis

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #2 on: 08/01/2008 04:03 »
All well and Good Michael but I will also point out that it would appear by the counter , your post was read over 100 times . I think ,although I am speculating , that those readers would not be on an English site unles they could read english ? So, maybe it would also help if those who DO speak English could also join in on a positive training post .  [top]

Gajah

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #3 on: 08/01/2008 04:46 »
Hi Michael, maybe not many of the posters in English here train Cimande...I don't know :-\ Personally, I would welcome any threads that purely discussed techniques without all the politics.

I have no training in Cimande, though I have been told some of 'our' techniques are similar, I am however familiar with sticky feet, foot trapping or Kaki Nempel.

I am trying to visualise your technique.......so, firstly perhaps you could explain what a kelid block is. It is not a term we use ???.

I am visualising a block/hit and using langkah to 'hook' the foot behind the attackers foot......

So, am I getting it? Inside or outside block/hit/foot trap? Left or right?

Then, I'm a bit confused ??? Are you hitting and moving the foreward 'trapping' leg backwards? Or is it the rear leg in a beset type move.

When I'm clear on the technique I'll try to compare a similar technique from my point of view.....if we have one ;) Not trad Cimande though!




Michael Lee

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #4 on: 08/01/2008 05:09 »
Martin! Nice to see you again. 

You know, I was sitting here trying to figure out how to reword my explanation so that it's understandable to everyone besides me, and I realized something....  If a picture is worth a thousand words, then a 20 second Youtube clip (at 12 frames per second) is worth 240,000 words.  :)

Here is a Youtube clip of two PCP players demonstrating Kelid in a seated positioin:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=chs9wXFpTvs

After the 1 - 2 hand motions are exectued, the defenders rear foot 'glues' itself to the attackers front foot.  As the attacker moves backward he throws another punch and the defender repeats from the otherside a Kelid followed by another 'sticky' foot. 

This drill helps develop sensitivity of the legs, body position, feet, hands and forearms of both parties.  Did I explain that any better?  :)

Michael

Gajah

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #5 on: 08/01/2008 05:35 »
Yes Michael, we have similar! As always with other peoples techniques, it is very familiar but a little different.....there always seems to be a 'that's nearly the same as we do, but a little different' between styles.

So lets take this from the opponent attacking with a right punch...

We would usually follow through with the right hand as an intercepting punch and with the left either 'jam' the opponents attacking hand above the elbow into the body or perhaps 'scoop' it to the outside for an inside attack.

We may also do a similar 'scoop' over the attacking arm but would usually hook it into a lock or even under the armpit moving forwards into a takedown.

I am now assuming that in an upright position you would trap with your left leg and use a sapu to sweep towards you right whilst hitting.

I find the block/scoop motion quite interesting. Possibly more evasive than a more expected direct hit but more difficult to pull off I expect. Interesting though, you do still get a 2 for 1 as we say :)

Michael Lee

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #6 on: 08/01/2008 06:03 »
Martin, I see that I've somehow managed to effecitively communicate my message.  Sometimes I even manage to impress myself...     ;D

You are correct in your assumption about the defenders left leg doing the trapping and sapuing (sapuing... my first Indoneglish word!).  However, "block" and "scoop" requires some more explanation on my part. 

First of all, in the sticky foot drill, we wouldn't do the scooping motion with the arm.  From what I understand, Kelid is one of 21 - 33 Cimande Jurus.  I say 21 - 33 because I believe that depending upon which part of "Cimande Country" you are in, there are a different number of jurus.  Anyone with more insight, please feel free to correct me on this point. 

Anyways, the scoop is just one variation of the dozens of variations that some of the jurus have.  Kelid, in-and-of itself, is simply an open handed parry followed by a forearm to forearm smash.  The scoop is an after thought that is often done, but not necessarily part of Kalid.  Also, notice that the word "block" isn't in there because we prefer to "smash" as opposed to "block."  The forearm smash is supposed to be destructive. 

Having come from Korean style block punch kick martial arts, when I was first introduced to this type of fighting, I kept saying to myself, "Damn those Indonesians are smart!" 

Make sense?   :)

Michael

Gajah

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #7 on: 08/01/2008 06:28 »
LOL, absolutely...why block THEN hit when you simultaneously block AND hit in one unbroken motion. Genius.

This was something of an epiphany for me....yet so bloody obvious [top] Half the movement, half the time.

Likewise, I find the term block inappropriate and intercept sounds a little too JKD ;D Smash is good. As you say a 'block' is also an attack!

Ranggalana

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #8 on: 08/01/2008 07:57 »
My school has a sticky (hand-feet) drill with sapu-beset thrown in. We don't always block-smash. We have conditioning exercises for the forearms and for the shins though.

I find it very hard / impossible to explain movement in words.

Actually our sparring begins with a sticky hand drill with the langkah and torso swaying back and forward ... when the students become good at this, the pelatih will start throwing sweeps in, and from there the sparing develops as hard as the student wants.

There is nothing I can add to share.

Warm regards,
Bram.

batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

mantis

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #9 on: 08/01/2008 11:22 »
This sounds very similar to what we call  the principle of bamboo. As the blow is entering our space ( the area we can touch it ) we draw the body back just out of the way , then as the opponents blow reaches the apex of its movement and begains to with draw we snap back, using the recoil effect we have sort of wound up or cocked , by the rear movement ,to propel us forward , following the blow back to the attacker riding just behind and with the withdrawn blow . This as a drill can continue back and forth ,the legs can be with drawn in the same manner snapping back with a variety of kicks and  sweeps  even the middle torso can be sort of sucked back a bit , to be withdrawn from a blow if needed. WE start very slow and raise the level until it gets sloppy and starts to fail . Then you back off a bit . Each time the effort is to go faster with more precision . Eventualy as you say we call it profesional when the players  can go at full speed with out much damage as the skill grows . I find this dialog much more interesting and educational  :D

Ranggalana

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #10 on: 08/01/2008 11:36 »
..... I find this dialog much more interesting and educational  :D

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that this is your first 'positive' post on this site, mantis? Care to introduce yorself for real now?

Regards,
Ranggalana
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Michael Lee

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #11 on: 08/01/2008 12:08 »
Bram, would you be willing to help in a cultural exchange in this thread by acting as a translator?  If you are, would also be willing to help us kick things off by asking some Indonesian Cimande Players to participate / share with us?

I'm thinking they could post directly into this thread in Indonesian, then you/someone could translate.  Maybe if they had quesitons for us, they can ask them here too!  I/us/whoever can respond or ask questions back in English, and then you/someone could translate into Indonesian.

Il y a quel qu'un(e) qui parle que le francais, c'est pas de problem!  Moi je parle francais et anglais. 

Michael

mantis

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #12 on: 08/01/2008 12:19 »
Because this thread  has been going on  in a positve way  ( my posts are a direct reflection of that by the way ) I will ignore the dig in your reply. I have allready stated I am a student of Pendekar Sanders, you can call me josh if you like . I hope now we can get back on the talk of training , is that ok with you Bram ?

Ranggalana

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #13 on: 08/01/2008 12:29 »
To tell you the humble truth Michael translation is one of the things I do for money and because of that I can't do it for free - lest it become a habit and I lose my livelyhood.

I can't read people's minds, Michael, but I would suppose that some people from Cimande are reluctant to join in your thread because of other things, not only the language barrier. It would be wise for you to try and get the bigger picture, not just rely on Sanders' experience here. Talk to people like Eric B who knows Bogor like the back of his hand, or Gorka.

Remember, all the time you guys were attacking me for 'negativity' ... you were all decidedly being negative too!  I think you all know that 'keroyokan' or setting on someone as a gang (like PCP players habitually do to me) is far from silat values.
Salam hangat,
Bram

PS. Nice to meet you too, Josh. Lets get started in the building of bridges. Your critics are your friends!

PPS. There, Josh, I modified my post deleting the words you object to.
« Last Edit: 08/01/2008 13:21 by Ranggalana »
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

mantis

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Re: Cimande
« Reply #14 on: 08/01/2008 12:47 »
Bram , well it was a bit to good to hope for . My positive post to you was to show you I had no hard feelings and I  enjoyed a positive dialog on training with you .  Why did this have to come back to PCP again , my teacher again ,the deleted thread again . Pcp guys who stick together are mongrols etc etc  etc etc etc Isnt this what Errick has asked not to occur ?   :'(  Al of these things are old hat on this forum . We were REALY trying  to limit this to techniques to help each other out . I see no sense in indulging in the old dialog again even though it is clear you want to . Who on this forum is up to just keeping  this to training and staying positive ? Its your forum , you can let it get hijacked in this manner over and over  or we can talk about training ? 

 

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