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SilatIndonesia.Com

Author Topic: Hello from Russia  (Read 11645 times)

Russian Silat

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #15 on: 07/12/2007 00:49 »
Hello Raganalla,

In the spirit of reconciliation, I offer you my apologies for my previous tone. Please read my other post for the explanation.

I've been studying PCP since 1994.

I was present in Chicago when the Pencak Silat Governing Board was formed in the US.

I've studied and taught in the US, Russia, Ireland and Holland. I brought the art with me to Russia when I moved here in 2002. I have two groups of students, one in the town of Vladimr, and another in Moscow. We train in Moscow two times per week, and I travel to Vladimir on weekends, where we train for six hours at a time on Saturday.

I devote alot of my time to the art, and to creating appreciation for Indonesian culture. We use gamelan music, I teach them the right terms, and encourage them to learn about Kejawen.

I would like to encourage them to participate in this website, to build their broader knowledge, but I think they would react poorly to the anti-PCP stuff here. Hopefully this can be reconciled in the future.

I don't make a big deal of myself, I just train my students, and love this art. I just recently discovered this website, and was quite upset about the attitudes here regarding PCP.

But my honest feeling is that it has all been a big misunderstanding, caused by a troublemaker.

Your English is good, Bram, but I speak American English, we only say 'mate' to refer to our wives! I have only one 'mate' here, and her involvement in PCP is lmited to washing my training clothes and taking calls from the students. :)

Peace,

Guru Fyodor

Gajah

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #16 on: 07/12/2007 01:57 »
Gajah, Privyet!

Vi Russki chto li? A gde zhivyotye? Esli budtye v Moskvye, pozhalsta, prexoditye k nam ha trainerovka.

Vso Xoroshovo,

Fyodor

LOL Fyodor, net I don't speak Russian I just know a few phrases from spending a little time with some many years ago...welcome being one of those I can remember.

The others being za vashe zdorovye which seemed to coincide with all things vodka related ;D Apologies for any cultural steriotyping :-X

EricB

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #17 on: 07/12/2007 03:11 »
Mr. Fyodor welcome to our forum

excuse me for not calling you Guru, that's a title I only use towards my own teacher.
Calling yourself Guru is maybe a little high don't you think ? or can you compare yourself already with teachers in Indonesia and Malaysia ?

You are saying you use the Gamalan and teach Kejawen ? how well do you know the backgrounds of pencak silat especially Cimande ?

Cimande is a traditional Sundanese style, that is not using Gamalan but Gendang Pencak.
Kejawen is an animistical belief from Middle and East-java, Cimande doesn't use that, Cimande practioners are Muslim and use the Al-Quran to strengthen themselves.

A view openers ;)

Russian Silat

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #18 on: 07/12/2007 03:41 »
Hello Eric,

What you choose to call me is your business, thanks for your hostile welcome.

I try every day to live up to the title I have been given. I am aware that it is a big responsibility.

I use the title because it was given me by my master, I didn't start calling myself this.

To not use the title would be disrespectful.

We don't have access to alot of Indonesian music in Russia, so we use Gamelan. I used Kendang Pencak music in the US, but I like to train to all kinds of Javanese music.

If you wanted to be helpful, you would help us get the appropriate training music.

As far as what I know about Kejawen, I see no reason so submit to being tested by you. You tell me what you know first.

I can tell you that I am faithful to the teachings of my master, and will pass it along faithfully.

I won't try to re-interpret it according to some kind of foreign religious ideology.

By the way, I have been a Cimande practicioner since 1994, and I'm an Animist. I don't use the Al-Quran for anything, although I have read it.

It is humorous to hear young Indonesians worry that their culture is being re-interpreted by foreigners who don't understand it.

In the future, your country will be so Muslimized that you won't have a distinct culture anymore.

Guru Fyodor
« Last Edit: 07/12/2007 03:52 by Russian Silat »

Russian Silat

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #19 on: 07/12/2007 04:09 »
Hello Eric

I might add that I know perfectly well what Gendang (or Kendang, as I’m used to saying it) is like. I’ve beat too many people while listening to it to be mistaken.

When I say “gamelan”, this is just my way of saying “Indonesian music”. I’m lucky if most people I talk to even know the capital of Indonesia, let alone the different styles of Javanese music.

The main point is that we use the music for internal training, to open the doors of spirit. Don’t you do this?

Kejawen used to be practiced all over the island of Java, before the coming of Islam.

We choose to practice the old ways, as many Javanese also do, but are afraid to admit because of being intimidated by intolerant types such as yourself.

Is it true that many people in your country are officially Muslim, but still practice things from Hinduism and Buddhism?

Pendekar Mama Sukarmo, who is a direct lineage holder from Mbah Kahir, says that one doesn’t have to be Muslim in order to do Cimande. Are you calling him a liar?

Isn’t it true that there is much magic and sorcery in Java which Muslims don’t like to admit exist?

Pukulan Cimande Pusaka is a form of Cimande which is NOT Muslim based. It is open to all people. This is the art I practice.

Guru Fyodor

Gajah

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #20 on: 07/12/2007 05:18 »
Fyodor,

I will respectfully ask you to cool down a little!

I understand issues are close to peoples hearts & are perhaps the results of former wrongdoings, but this forum is used by many pesilat from many countries.

Please note that things have 'calmed down' of late and people have begun to accept a respectful difference of opinion.

It is my fear that the constant negativity between certain factions may be seen as representative of us all and the art as a whole.

Remember, many of us simply like study our silat without politics or fanfare.

With respect

Martin
« Last Edit: 07/12/2007 05:20 by Gajah »

SundaWarrior

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #21 on: 07/12/2007 05:19 »
Welcome Mr. Fyodor,

It is good to have your opinion here. A couple of questions though:



I might add that I know perfectly well what Gendang (or Kendang, as I’m used to saying it) is like. I’ve beat too many people while listening to it to be mistaken.


Are you proud to say that you have beaten too many people wile listening to Gendang
Pencak.  I am not sure to many Cimande Guru's would say something like that  :-\

Pukulan Cimande Pusaka is a form of Cimande which is NOT Muslim based. It is open to all people. This is the art I practice.
Are you saying that Muslim based Cimande is not open to all people?


Salam,

Nicholas
The Association of Pencak Silat America - "Promoting Brotherhood Within US Pencak Silat"

EricB

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #22 on: 07/12/2007 11:32 »
Hello Fyodor,

my welcome is not hostile but friendly with placing some question-marks,
when I read your posts (some are quite flaming) you seem to be on a mission here.

In my opinion you act like you have to defend yourself, why ?? are you being attacked ? I don't think so.

If you need to have a music to beat people ............ hmmmmmm
I don't need music to do that, I beat them fair and square ....if they attack me, but ............. I teach the art of self-defence, not beating up people.
That's what I learn from my teachers ;)

Also I don't want to test you in your Kejawen, it's obvious you don't understand it,
If Holland is Muslimized so be it, I don't care I'm Muslim myself ;)
But in my country the main religion is still Christian religion, and that OK by me

You say you have read the Al-Quran, reading and understanding are 2 different things, a lot of Ilmu is coming from the Holy Book, if you know where and how to find it.

About music, I have a lot, but not for training purposes, music you use to perform in Pencak Silat Seni, like demonstrations.
To open the spiritual doors you can also do some prayers that's normal in Cimande.


Then another point: intolerant people like me (that's what you call me) who are doing some traditional Cimande don't use Javanese old ways, Cimande is not Javanese but Sundanese, that's a big difference.
It is developed in the area's around Bogor in a time the majority was already Muslim, like Mbak Khair was also

If Bpk Mama Sukarmo said you don't have to be Muslim that are his words, I have never met him, I really like to have a chat with him, maybe next time I go to Indonesia.
I really wonder if the things he said are translated right, maybe it is a big misinterpretation, don't you ever be sceptic about things people say about others, translate it and publish it ??

Kind regards



"Cai Imam Anu Hade"

 


« Last Edit: 07/12/2007 11:35 by EricB »

EricB

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #23 on: 07/12/2007 11:42 »
PS. if you want to know who I am, just ask other people who know me, there are some on this forum

I don't like to put myself on a high spot, I'm just a "pelatih"

Russian Silat

  • Guest
Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #24 on: 07/12/2007 19:36 »
Hello All,

I will respect Gajah's request to cool it down.

To respond as cooly as possible...

Yes, I've sparred and beat people to the sound of Javanese and Sundanese music.

I've also performed alot of kembagan, jurus and langkas to it.

These are all aspects of training, having nothing to do with being proud.

Are you saying that you have never used your Silat to fight with someone? In my style, Pukulan Cimade Pusaka, we actually fight hard with each other. I beat other people, sometimes they beat me, but we're all friends.

Being in a combative state of mind causes one to recieve an imprint of what was experienced.

It's obvious to a Dutch Muslim that a guy in Russia knows nothing about Kejawen.

It's obvious to me from your passive-agressive confrontational statement and baiting in the beginning of our discourse that we have different understandings of Kejawen. I won't try to influence your understanding, it's none of my business.

Concerning Muslim-based Cimande being open to all people or not...

To answer your question honestly, I don't know. I know that my style of Cimande is. I know that Cimande as taught by Pendekar Mama is. I know that the styles taught to my Master are open to all. Concerning everything else, I simply don't know.

Eric B, if you have any questions to Pendekar Mama, then it is an excellent idea to seek him out and ask him directly. I hope you post the results of this conversation on every Silat website.

You can call yourself whatever you want. As I said before, I only use the title I've been given, no more or no less. If you don't like it, what should I do, return my certificate to my teacher?

Do I percieve being attacked? Yes. Maybe I'm wrong, but as soon as I mentioned being a Guru of Pukulan Cimande Pusaka, I immediately felt the hostility. Then I viewed the threads of this website, and found out that my style has been disrespected here, for no good reason, and that no apology has ever been made for various attempts to discredit it.

What I percieved was an open state of warfare against my Pendekar, William Sanders, and the style I've practiced for 13 years.

What would your reactions be?

Diplomacy and politeness are to be highly valued, to be sure, but no one can sit back and watch their teacher and style attacked without responding.

So please tell me I'm wrong, that my style and my teacher are being given due respect, and I'll be happy to move forward with constructive dialogue.

This is my hope.

-Guru Fyodor


Ranggalana

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #25 on: 07/12/2007 20:13 »
Hello All,
....So please tell me I'm wrong, that my style and my teacher are being given due respect, and I'll be happy to move forward with constructive dialogue.
This is my hope.
-Guru Fyodor

Fyodor,

Due respect to your style and your teacher is given here. I have given your style and teacher respect by looking through your website and questioning statements that are there, like Kejawen being part of Cimande teaching, or like you mistakenly state: that before Islam arrived the belief in Jawa was Kejawen. I also show respect to your teacher when I respond patiently to his childish attacks to me on his site.

If not for respect, I would simply ignore.

But I respect Cimande. [top]

A lot of what appears on your website is not of Cimande.  :-\

A lot of statements inside your website about Sunda, Jawa, Kejawen, Untung Surapati, Keris, Cikolong and so on, are simply wrong. :-\

I say this with respect for Sanders. I respect you too. That is why I explain over and over again. Respect.  [top]

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

optimus prime

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #26 on: 07/12/2007 20:49 »
Hello Bram


Respect you say Bram... sorry but that won't wash, you keep playing the same old record, pretending you very respectful. Please answer me, where was your respect last week, when you posted the comment about Mr Sanders certificates, that you got into trouble for. Was that respectful?? :-[ What about the time when you pretended you didnt know about Pendekar Mama even though you had his address was that respectful? :- You have shown very little respect, and thats why, you find yourself now in this turmoil that you cause. When Mr Sanders offered you the hand of friendship, you completely refuse, on one occassion your requested that Mr Sanders should have to travel to your market stall in Camden, before you even would talk to him. You have never email, fax or even phone him directly to talk to him, even though he offer. Instead you prefere to carry out your covert attacks on Mr Sanders on the internet, never facing him or any of his senior guys like a true silat warrior would. We are no furthur forward than 2 and half years, and I fully expect another two and half years the way you go on. At the end of the day, you are doing a very good job of bringing this forum down to your level, and with that all the other silat groups. This is not going to stop, untill you stop throwing muck.

I will however give you credit for not denying,who you contact in the ex PCP community was. I find it hard to understand, since you say you want the truth, that you were prepared to send private mails and get in personal contact with Mr JD, but wouldnt do so with Mr Sanders. And not once have you asked for Mr JD to back up any of his wild claims, you are very silent on this. This ends up making your claims about wanting to find the truth very hard to believe and instead it sounds more a crusade on your part to continual discredit a man who you have never met, who is out there giving his heart and soul to promote Indonesian culture and art (and only God knows why) there not much to promote if you read this forum.

Optimus
« Last Edit: 07/12/2007 20:51 by optimus prime »

Russian Silat

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #27 on: 08/12/2007 01:19 »
Dear Raganella,

If you respect our style and our teacher, then why do you continue to make false clams against us?

We have taken the time to answer ALL of your questions repeatedly, providing multiple proofs.

Alot of what is on our website is Cimande, and alot of other stuff is Kebatinan from the lineage of Untung Surapati.

What you probably mean to say, is that what appears on our website is not the kind of Cimande you want to admit exists, because it contradicts your a priori beliefs.

If you have respect for us, and for other seekers of knowledge in Silat, do not try to impose your limited understanding and world-view on them or us.

If you want your experience in Cimande to be an exclusively Muslim phenomenon, rooted in the Quran, totally divorced from the native Javanese spirituality, this is your choice, and I support your choice.

But I cannot support your tendency to force this choice on others.

ALL of our statements are based on fact, but you choose to ignore the evidence we present. Is this respect?

Let's be honest...

-Guru Fyodor

Michael Lee

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #28 on: 08/12/2007 03:40 »
I'm gonna have to agree with Optimus and Fyodor on this one.  I don't think that Bram has respect for us. 

I would have hoped that by now with the information we've provided that he would have at least come to some sort of understanding that we are for real, but it doesn't seem to be the case.  Not to say that he has to agree with every point we've made, but I couldn't help but hope that we've changed his mind on some of the issues.

Have we Bram?  Has your mind be changed on any of the points made on this website by PCP? 

And to Hanachu!  Nice to see you posting again.  I wish you well with your projects and look forward to our constructive dialogue continuing.   [top]

Warm regards,
Michael
« Last Edit: 08/12/2007 03:42 by Cimande Fan »

Ranggalana

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #29 on: 08/12/2007 07:14 »
.... Have we Bram?  Has your mind be changed on any of the points made on this website by PCP?  .....

Warm regards,
Michael

What points, Michael? Should I make a list? I'm going by memory here so there might be some points overlooked:

1. The address www.cimande.com, in my view, is like claiming to be the real Cimande.
2. Claims of an ancient, royal art, are bogus. Abah Choir was pencaking in the 18th century at the earliest, and that is not so long ago in Indonesian history. By that time there was no karaton in Sundaland.
3. The reference to Jawa and Kebatinan / Kejawen, is very wierd, as Sundanese would never ever call what they do as Kejawen.
4. The claims of teaching ancient keris fighting methods, are illustrated by Sanders holding several kerises, all in a way contrary to the usual way of holding keris in Jawa.
5. In the past, the site was selling a carved bladed (kruwingan) tombak, identifying it as spirit keris.... This is not there anymore! Well done!
6. Wrongly spelt names on the certificate form Banten and from Tarikolot are still wrong.
7. Venomous attacks to other silat people and schools are still abundant on the site.
8. Claims of making Pak Wanda and Pak Made Bawa not being able to figure out Sanders' moves, are still arrogant and not in spirit with Cimande.
9. The application of Geertz' categories from his study in Modjokuto (East Jawa 1950s) is still applied to Sunda 2007.
10. This forum and website is continousley described as a hate site.
11. The name Pukulan Cimande Pusaka still carries the connotations explained a thousand times before, but as we learn the Kebatinan of PCP comes from non-Cimande sources, I understand more how much it is made up and a deviation from the traditional.
12. How and who gave Sartono the title Pendekar,  no one knows.
13. As a name Pendekar Mama, is still unusual and will always be, and I appologize for not believing that was his name but not for (as you twist my words) that the gentleman doesn't exist. I do though, strongly suspect that Sanders has never met him? Is that true?
14. The connections with the perdukunan website Indotalisman has never been made clear.
15. Though you often mention the Singa Barong keris corner as a credible source of keris, the guy there, contacted me specifically to tell me that I was right to suspect Sanders and because of bad experiences, he wanted NOTHING to do with you anymore.
16. The tittles Guru, Mahaguru, Guru Besar, and Pendekar, are all used in a way that is, let us say, unique to PCP and unusual in Indonesia.
17. The reference to a silat called Cikolong is unusual. Let me elaborate: Ci, from Cai, means water. Kolong, is the space under a bed, or table. So Silat Cikolong would be silat of the water under the bed. In Jawa beds are only bamboo slits and a reed mat without a mattress, and if there is water under the bed, it means that the guy sleeping did a pee in his sleep [lucu].

There are 17 points to chew on. There could be more but I am getting bored now.

Warm salams to all,

Ranggalana. 

batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

 

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