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Author Topic: Hello from Russia  (Read 11644 times)

Michael Lee

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #30 on: 08/12/2007 12:28 »
hhhmmm...  Ok.. 

Just to be 100% clear here Bram.  After everything you seen on Sanders's website, after everything you've seen various people post on this website, and after everything I've posted, your mind has not been changed on one issue? 

You haven't seen anything written that's caused you to realize that we were correct on at least one point?

Ranggalana

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #31 on: 08/12/2007 16:52 »
hhhmmm...  Ok.. 

Just to be 100% clear here Bram.  After everything you seen on Sanders's website, after everything you've seen various people post on this website, and after everything I've posted, your mind has not been changed on one issue? 

You haven't seen anything written that's caused you to realize that we were correct on at least one point?

Cimande Fan,

I am clear as to your explained intentions of the why some things are on your website and I am sure that in many instances you and your teacher don't mean harm. For example I know how you view the word Pusaka in your name, but that doesn't change my opinion as to the implications it bears, even if you did not mean for those implications to be there, I think they are. An other example: you have all this "knowledge" on keris that is claimed to have come from Jawa and you have a vid of Eddie Jaffri playing nicely with a keris, but then you go on to say that he is from Riau - so that makes him a non Jawa anyway... and still, playing with keris for Orang Jawa is Ora Ilok.

My opinion about the inappropriateness to use Geertz' Abangan-Santri-Priyayi analysis on Jawa Timur to describe a community in Jawa Barat, remains. I still am of the opinion that Kejawen is not practised by the Sundanese and that in Kebumen you don't have a grave of Untung Surapati. I find the information that he died in the hills in Kediri, possible, but then again, Kediri is not far from Bangil, not like Kebumen, which is in the next province.

I still hold the opinion that it is unsual for a Guru Besar to be under a Pendekar and there to be several Guru Besar in one School (normaly called Perguruan). I notice you now also have the title Maha Guru and I find that even more unusual.

I still believe that Abah Khoir created Cimande he had da'wah Islam in his mind, as he was a Muslim and socio-historicvally that is how he would have thought. I still believe that and most of the othe issues I have brought up in this thread.

I believe that Pak Mama Sukarma's name is Mama Sukarma, and I believe that is rather unusual. I believe that Sanders is his student and I believe that that relationship is somehow obscure: I don't think Sanders has ever shaken hands with Pak Karma because there are no characteristic photos. I believe that in the vids of Pak Made Bawa and Pak Wanda, both were humoring Sanders and for Sanders to take the vids and put them up saying that he was so good he was baffling them is arrogant and contrary to the spirit of silat brotherhood and should not come form someone who has so many certificates claiming he is a Pendekar.

I believe that for your website to call this forum a hate site is wrong and counter productive, and for you guys to come here post as if you have been wronged is very naughty. I believe that if you guys are serious about mending bridges you could begin with the language and tone of your site when commenting on things said here and elsewhere. 

Lastly, Michael, I believe you sincerely love your art. I believe you believe what you believe but I don't believe it. Should we leave it there and avoid going over and over like a broken record?

Regards,
Ranggalana.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Michael Lee

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #32 on: 08/12/2007 21:34 »
hhmmmm.... 

Time is short as I'm out the door in 2 minutes for the weekend to Grandmother's 90th birthday party. 

Bram, the long list of issues and shots was not was I asking you.

For the sake of everyone else on this board, I'll keep it super simple...

After reading everything that I'VE posted, has your mind been changed on any of the questions/issues that you've raised? 

Have a great weekend everyone!

Michael

Ranggalana

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #33 on: 09/12/2007 08:06 »
hhmmmm.... 

Time is short as I'm out the door in 2 minutes for the weekend to Grandmother's 90th birthday party. 

Bram, the long list of issues and shots was not was I asking you.

For the sake of everyone else on this board, I'll keep it super simple...

After reading everything that I'VE posted, has your mind been changed on any of the questions/issues that you've raised? 

Have a great weekend everyone!

Michael

Hello Michael,

I hope your Grandmother's 90th was a great party.

Your posts have been different to every other PCP supporter's post that I have had the pleasure of addressing, in that YOU did not enter the conversation with negative preconceptions about who I am, and I really appreciate that.

However your teacher's website continues to call this forum a "hate-site" and uses other derogatory descriptions for me, and other people that your teacher regards as enemies... for example, an ex student who leaves him is described as "a dog". He describes an ex teacher as "ripping him off" and so on, airing all this dirty underwear in public.

I sincerely hope that your teacher realizes that people like you hold him up on a pedestal as a role model in silat, and because of that, I hope that your teacher learns to wash his dirty underware in private. When he stops attacking people, I am sure the negative feelings towards him will abide also. Don't you think so?

Warm regards,
Ranggalana
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

optimus prime

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #34 on: 09/12/2007 17:57 »
Hello Bram

I wonder sometimes Bram are you for real? Are you now pretending you are the innocent person in all of this, and you have been wronged. Lets not forget one thing, we have never, and I say it once more, we have never attack you first on any occassion, we have reacted to your slandering and at time fraudulent claims, which you attack Mr Sanders with. A man who you refused to meet or talk to, but where prepared to talk to everyone of his ex students, trying to get information. Not once checking up, if the information was correct (but we used to that now, from you) so here is lauaghable fact one

YOU did not enter the conversation with negative preconceptions about who I am.. Bram [lucu] [lucu] [lucu]

How would we come up with negative preconceptions about you, well... maybe its the last 30 months of rubbish you be ranting against us and other silat groups, which didnt fall in line with you.

Fact two

 I hope that your teacher learns to wash his dirty underware in private.. Bram [lucu] [lucu] [lucu] [lucu]

What do you think you been doing, when ask to meet us in private you refused, when asked to phone Mr Sanders you refused, when asked to email Mr Sanders privately you refuse, when we arrange to travel over and meet you personally in Camden you refused, instead you attack Mr Sanders on the internet for all the world to see, wow a real silat warrior. Tell me Bram is that what you call private??????????????????????

Fact 3

When he stops attacking people, I am sure the negative feelings towards him will abide also  [lucu] [lucu] [lucu] [lucu]

When did he start attacking you, only after you attack Mr. Sanders on a number of occassion, and continiously for past 30 months.

Fact 4

your teacher's website continues to call this forum a "hate-site" and uses other derogatory descriptions for me.. Bram  [lucu] [lucu] [lucu] [lucu]


In his view what else would be call this forum, I hardly think its the Mr Sanders appreciation society. This forum has allow you to make claim after claim, degradating Mr Sanders and you wonder why he calls it a hate site..


Optimus

.

EricB

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #35 on: 09/12/2007 19:28 »
Looks like we starting to get in an endless circle again

30 months on this forum ??, first registration date was on april 26; 2007 !
so don't blame this forum for the other 22 months

I've seen this discussion on many forum's and discussionboards, in the past and it's already going on for years.
Wouldn't it be better that PCP opens its own discussion board, so everybody can talk, defend and offend this organisation on its owne base.

To bring this discussion to al other boards its not getting nicer, we want to discuss traditional silat in this board, so please don't rake up old discussions over and over again, and yes there is smoke, there might be fire also... don't you all think ?
(old dutch saying: stop dragging drowned cows from a river, there useless)

This is not a mudpit, so please stop throwing around, this is impossible to solve, we have to many different thinking persons, we have the pro-PCP, the anti-PCP and a big group of sceptic people.
There can be no winners, only losers, and we don't want this forum to be the loser of someone elses fight

* this is a general message not to anyone special *
« Last Edit: 09/12/2007 19:35 by EricB »

Russian Silat

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #36 on: 10/12/2007 06:04 »
Hello Eric B,

I agree. Let's stop all attacks of other people and styles.

Please ask Bram to stop his provocations, and I for one will be happy to let sleeping dogs lie. He's entitled to his opinions, but they are just that- opinions, and he should keep them to himself if he wishes to have constructive dialogue.

In order to change the tone a bit, I'd like to report on a successful seminar conducted in Russia over the weekend.

Our objective was to provide the students with a base of movement from which they could improvise Kembagan sympathetic to the water element.

We divided the basic upper-body movements of the monkey into three basic dimensions: inside-out circular, outside-in circular, and linear direct blows. The initial practice was how to get the arms moving in a really fast and powerful way.

The basic inside-out movements were fleshed out to illustrate how they can be forearm strikes, monkey grabs, reverse hammer-fists, or open handed passes. The open-handed pass could be followed by a snake strike with the opposite hand (as in the seated jurus), or the same hand compacted into an elbow, as in the Sera Depok jurus.

The basic outside-in movement is a forearm smash first and foremost, classical Cimande. We use the same movements and body dynamics to inform the backhand speed punch, cross-body elbow spear, and follow through with a hooking knife-hand pass. The pass is followed up by a snake head strike with the opposite hand, or compacted into a devastating elbow blow.

The linear movements were hand spear, inverted hand spear, or palm heel strike. Each of these were practiced with a wave-type motion to provide power, and the strikes were informed by extended-power blows. The hand spear is followed by a corkscrew extended power blow , the inverted spear turns into an inverted punch, and the palm heel folds into a forward rolling knuckle punch (just like and incoming wave!).

We also studied a variety of elbow techniques. The rotor-parry elbow plus waterfall punch, and cross elbow followed by backfist.

We trained extensively with the knife also.

The female students were happy to learn how they could use their supporting hand to add power to the elbow strikes, and to actually "throw" a hammerfist at the opponent.

We incorporated the linear and circular movements into a number of nice combinations, hopefully to give the students a feel for how this style works.

We also trained on what to do if the knife gets stuck in the opponent, how to use the opposite hand to knock it free from an odd angle.

We also studied a great langka which uses these techniques against multiple opponents.

I chose this theme because I wanted to start focussing on one aminal exclusively. I believe the monkey to be foundational, critical to understanding the sitting jurus and Sera Depok jurus.

I also chose these movements because we are training a special meditation to do for the water element, and they need a good base of movement in order to express the spirit of water.

Next class we'll incorporate the lower body.

My goal in a few months time is to open the door for Pendekar Sanders to visit Russia again and put us all into monkey possession! But I'm sure I won't convince him to come until the weather gets a bit warmer.

The students train three times per week, and I visit them every two weeks. They are more advanced than the Moscow students, they've been training longer.

After training (six hours!), we went to the banya. The banya is located in a nearby village on the shore of a frozen lake. It is like a sauna, if you know what that is. We had a good sweat, beat each other with birch branches, then went and jumped into the lake through a hole in the ice! It makes you feel more alive than anything!

The banya is a Russian tradition, but I believe it is very cleansing, and helps to balance the elements in the body. The element of fire heats the room, the element of earth is in the hot rocks, water is thrown on the hot rocks, then air carries the steam to our bodies.

It is a great tradition. Men go in first, then women. Men go first because it is too hot for the women right after the rocks are fully heated.

Then we have a very nice meal, kind of like a Russian selamatan! Then, two more times in the banya and lake.

Please share your experiences with training too! I'd like to know how other schools and practitioners train the monkey, and what you all do to relax together.

Best Regards,

Godzilla
« Last Edit: 10/12/2007 06:35 by Russian Silat »

DasaMan

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #37 on: 13/12/2007 10:45 »
Sooo... what's up with Systema's connection with Muso's silat? Maybe I should just PM Bram on this one then...

Russian Silat

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #38 on: 13/12/2007 15:40 »
If you're asking me, I have no idea. I have nothing to do with systema.

I've seen some of it demonstrated in you-tube, and I've moved around with some people who've briefly studied it, but other than that, I don't know.

It does seem similar to Silat in some of its physical techniques, but how it actually employs those techniques seems quite different from what we do.

Regards,

Russian Silat

Russian Silat

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #39 on: 13/12/2007 20:12 »
Hello to all,

By the way, are there any Indonesians out there who are happy that we are trying to spread awareness of and appreciation for their culture in Russia? It does take alot of time and energy, and pays hardly any money. Most Russians know nothing about your country, but now they are getting interested. Perhaps they will want to come visit and train with local masters?

I am dissapointed by the total lack of feedback, or lack of even the slightest expression of positive support for what we are doing. Isn't this site called "Silat Friends"?

The more knowledge you share with me, the more I can pass on to my students. What have you given me to share with them so far?

Peace,

Russian Silat

Ranggalana

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #40 on: 14/12/2007 09:15 »
Hello to all,
....
I am dissapointed by the total lack of feedback, or lack of even the slightest expression of positive support for what we are doing. Isn't this site called "Silat Friends"?

The more knowledge you share with me, the more I can pass on to my students. What have you given me to share with them so far?

Peace,
Russian Silat

What did the Romans do for us?

Foydor, maybe you can tell your students that most Muslims don't take the "kill unbelivers" verses of the Qur'an literally ...  there are 'asbabun nuzul' for the said verse above, a context, if you like.

Salam hangat
Ranggalana
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Russian Silat

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #41 on: 14/12/2007 23:08 »
Well Bram, I will tell the Russians that you say "what have you ever done for us", and make it clear that you are either hiding behind a typo, or you are intentionally an idiot. I will make sure they know this is your attitude towards them.

I see here that you admit such verses exist in the Quran, just as I said.

Good for you, you are starting to come around to the truth.

I know that the Quran, like the Bible, can be interpreted to mean just about anything. I am not an expert in Islamic interpretation, I only offered the clear word of the text itself.

If Bram continues on like this, I will have little choice but to agree with Pendekar Sanders' assessment that this is indeed a "hate site". No matter how many positive things we try to say or share, there is never a positive repsonse. There is never anything but negative feedback or silence.

All attempts at friendship have been met with scorn and irrational, jihadist mentality.

I continue to be disappointed.

The moderators of this site have a history of irrational Anti-PCPism. They also know that we speak the truth about much of what is argued here, but they never speak the truth they know on our behalf (Kucang jurus!).

Is this a hate site?

Is this "The Bram Show"?

Why contiue to call it "Silat Friends"? Be honest, and call it "Platform for Bram to pursue his slander".

-Russian Silat

Ranggalana

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #42 on: 14/12/2007 23:34 »
Well Bram, I will tell the Russians that you say "what have you ever done for us", and make it clear that you are either hiding behind a typo, or you are intentionally an idiot. I will make sure they know this is your attitude towards them.
...Russian Silat

Ted Walls,

I said 'what did the Romans ever do for us" in reference to Monty Python, it was meant as a joke, sorry it did not come across as such, but it honsetly was.

I was responding to your questioning what positive things have been said here and in my opinion there is much, most all here is positive. It just takes a different point of view.

Why do you fashion yourself as the representative of silat in Russia?

Salam hangat,

Ranggalana.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Russian Silat

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Re: Hello from Russia
« Reply #43 on: 15/12/2007 00:36 »
Why do you fashion yourself as the arbiter of authenticity in Silat?

Gajah

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He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
« Reply #44 on: 15/12/2007 00:53 »
Russian Silat,

If someone does not agree with you (or PCP, or Mr Sanders etc) and happens to be Muslim, it does not mean that person is a 'Jihadist'. That is a very unwise and inflamatory choice of term and certainly not appropriate :-[

Sometimes I do get the feeling of an Islamophobic undercurrent with you guys. I don't know if it is intentional or not?

So, regardless of my own opinions, I firmly believe that everyone is also entitled to their own opinion. This of course includes you, PCP and Bram.

Just face facts, on many issues people will simply disagree. That's life I'm afraid :w

 

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