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Author Topic: Pendekar Mama Sukarma's Address  (Read 3592 times)

SundaWarrior

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Pendekar Mama Sukarma's Address
« on: 07/10/2007 20:43 »
Salam Everyone,

Mr. Sanders has informed me he has put up a video from his teacher Bapak Sukarma on his website.  Please take the time to watch.  I hope it will help
clear up some issues regarding the PCP debate.

Hormat,
Nicholas
The Association of Pencak Silat America - "Promoting Brotherhood Within US Pencak Silat"

Martial Artist

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Re: Pendekar Mama Sukarma's Address
« Reply #1 on: 09/10/2007 03:41 »
After reading the outrageous posts against  Mr. Sanders, reading his website, and then watching the vids of Pendekar Mama on Sander's website, I can only say that it's obvious that Bram is an extremely articulate, yet very disturbed individual.  Despite what he says, it's clear that his whole reason for being on this site is to make personal attacks against Mr. Sanders. 

Any doubts I might have had about Mr. Sanders are now erased by Pendekar Mama's videos.  And to state the obvious, I don't know Indonesian but a friend of mine does.  He watched the videos and told me that Mr. Sander's English translation was more or less accurate. 

I only wish that one of his schools was near me on the east coast.  If anyone from his organization is reading that lives in the Jersey area, please email me.

David F.

SundaWarrior

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Re: Pendekar Mama Sukarma's Address
« Reply #2 on: 17/10/2007 06:52 »
After reading the outrageous posts against  Mr. Sanders, reading his website, and then watching the vids of Pendekar Mama on Sander's website, I can only say that it's obvious that Bram is an extremely articulate, yet very disturbed individual.  Despite what he says, it's clear that his whole reason for being on this site is to make personal attacks against Mr. Sanders.

David F.

Salam David,

I assure you Mas Bram is in no way "a disturbed individual."  His knowledge of Pencak
Silat is far beyond most (especially Westerners like myself).  Mas Bram has the right to
question conspicuous claims made by Westerners - especially when it comes to the
Martial Art of Indonesians.  I am happy to see Mr.Sanders bringing things to light about
"his" Cimande but again there are still concerns but for the sake of peace it is better
to  make friends than enemies - as we are all family in Pencak Silat.

Regards,
Nicholas
The Association of Pencak Silat America - "Promoting Brotherhood Within US Pencak Silat"

optimus prime

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Re: Pendekar Mama Sukarma's Address
« Reply #3 on: 17/10/2007 14:31 »
Salam David,

I assure you Mas Bram is in no way "a disturbed individual."  His knowledge of Pencak
Silat is far beyond most (especially Westerners like myself).  Mas Bram has the right to
question conspicuous claims made by Westerners - especially when it comes to the
Martial Art of Indonesians.  I am happy to see Mr.Sanders bringing things to light about
"his" Cimande but again there are still concerns but for the sake of peace it is better
to  make friends than enemies - as we are all family in Pencak Silat.

Regards,
Nicholas
[/quote]
[/i]Hi Nicholas

If you feel Bram has a right,to feel he needs to question conspicuous claims by "Westerners" than don't those very same "Westerners" have a right to have some sort of retraction or an apology, when the false accusasations that Bram have made are proven wrong? Or do you feel that Bram just because he Indonesian doesn't have to admit he been wrong. What exactly now is your concern? I honestly don't believe no matter what proof is brought forward, will ever be enough.

However you took Bram side on many arguments against Mr Sanders and were very quick of the draw, but have been very slow to come forward when the evidence to support Mr Sanders was given. I personally think Bram has a very unhealty obession with Mr Sanders which I think has left him abit trouble concerning anything to do with Mr Sanders and PCP. So far he has been proven wrong in nearly every single statement he has made about these two subjects.

You wrote in your last post, that its better to make friends than enemies for the sake of peace, "YES" thats very true and we all want that. But if one side of the line is constantly throwing slander, lies and deception, how long do you think before the other side hits back. Over the past few years Bram under his many names has started more rows on internet forums than any other individual, has that help Silat?? Or has people become more entrench? What exactly has he done except inflate his already large ego? If he truely wants change in the Silat world, than maybe he should try be to more diplomatic from the start, and than maybe these changes would happen in a bond of friendship and common goals and we all be much more happy.
« Last Edit: 17/10/2007 14:38 by optimus prime »

SundaWarrior

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Re: Pendekar Mama Sukarma's Address
« Reply #4 on: 17/10/2007 20:27 »
I am not getting into this argument again with you or anyone else.
Mas Bram is an adult and if he feels like he owes you an apology then
that is entirely up to him. I am not in the business of taking sides.  I only want to promote the culture and martial art of Pencak Silat.

Salam,
Nicholas
The Association of Pencak Silat America - "Promoting Brotherhood Within US Pencak Silat"

Ranggalana

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Re: Pendekar Mama Sukarma's Address
« Reply #5 on: 22/10/2007 16:37 »
Salam Everyone,

Mr. Sanders has informed me he has put up a video from his teacher Bapak Sukarma on his website.  Please take the time to watch.  I hope it will help
clear up some issues regarding the PCP debate.

Hormat,
Nicholas

Selamat Syawal everyone,

To those who don't know, it has been Ramadan and Idul Fitri here in Indonesia and people have been busy with family and friends and have not had time to respond to Sanders' funny efforts to boost his legitimacy. If you know what you are watching the videos of Pak Sukarma show that all along, the concerns of myself and others have been well grounded. Thanks for posting the video link Nick. The video of Pak Sukarma is of course very interesting and proves several things:

1. Sanders has been a murid for 3 years, and is authorized to teach Pak Sukarma's silat in the USA. Pak Sukarma doesn't say that Sanders is free to change, add, make better and create the best Cimande in the world. It looks like Pak Sukarma doesn't know what Sanders says on his site but was fed inflamatory information by a Sanders stooge. Twisted information designed to cover up tracks maybe?

2. Islam is, was, and will be an important base of Cimande philosophy and Pak Sukarma seems to have no knowledge that his murid, Sanders, has made up his own "Untung Surapati" kebatinan (with some glaring historical errors I have pointed out before).

3. It would seem that the contact between Sanders and his teacher Pak Sukarma is done through a third party.

4. Unlike the situation in Sanders' PCP, a guru besar is normaly the head of a school. Pak Sukarma says he is the Guru Besar of his school. In the same way, if Sanders better understood the culture of silat he would be the Guru Besar of PCP Sanders. Maybe now with Pak Karma explaining the position of a Guru Besar, Sanders will be able to see that when I said it was unusual to have several Guru Besars under him as Pendekar, I was telling him a truth that he would have been wise to listen to.

Sahabats, other than the newly obtained vids on the Sanders site, there is also an article by a PCP Sanders student talking about the "struggle between the old style silat and the new reactionist Islam groups" ... by a guy named Ted who is studying anthropology and was quoting Geertz in his articulate but misinformed essay. Geertz NEVER studied the Sundanese, who are the owners of Cimande. He studied Jawanese, and East Jawanese at that, in the last century. Secondly, Cimande was created within an Islamic society long after the Hindu kingdoms had crumbled in Sundaland.

How Sanders could allow such a mistake on his site further  strengthens people's questions for him. How can he be expert on Cimande and not know the difference between Jawa and Sunda and confuse the two? How can he be an expert in Cimande while at the same time opine that Islam has 'watered down' the art? Cimande began as an Islamic art and the first Patalekan Cimande mentions that Cimande students must obey Allah and His Prophet. Was Abah Khoir a Muslim? Was not Mas Jut Muslim? The words of Sanders that as long as a belief in God is held it can be Cimande are NEW and not traditional.

I don't understand why Sanders and his gang think they have any proof of anything to strengthen their made-up world of PCP Sanders with these videos and why they think that they have been slandered. If you do something 'bad' and people catch you, it is not slander and writing that down is not libel either. If Sanders thinks that I have slandered him then there is always the legal course that can be taken: sue me! I have always been of the opinion that Sanders could be a great asset to the silat world if he would take time to learn more about the culture that he claims to be promoting. At least he could learn to say less rather than more, because when he starts to invent things and say that they are traditional then he will find that he will be corrected. Like the way he holds the keris and explains things about the keris. Posting Jaffri playing around with a keris doesnt proove that keris fighting is part of Cimande tradition, it just prooves that at the time Jaffri was playing with a keris for whatever reason.

Salam hangat,

Selamat Hari Raya Eidul Fitri 1428 Hijriyah, mohon maaf lahir dan batin.
Sing wis ya wis sing durung dianyaki.
Sumonggo.

Bram.


batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

optimus prime

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Re: Pendekar Mama Sukarma's Address
« Reply #6 on: 23/10/2007 00:02 »
Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah....... same old shite... Blah, Blah, Blah.... no proof is enough.... Blah, Blah, Blah... (Intake of Breath) Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah,
Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.... everyone a Muslim.....Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.....Sanders is the false God ....Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, everything is wrong....Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, I'm the only one who's right.......Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, PCP guys are always wrong.....Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Hold it, wait for it......................... no sorry more Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Pendekar Jafri aahhh sure he was only playing around with a keris what would he know....Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah..

 Jee Bram you ain't much to add, and back to the same old story, suppose you nothing better to do with your life.

Optimus
« Last Edit: 23/10/2007 00:03 by optimus prime »

AbdUllah

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Re: Pendekar Mama Sukarma's Address
« Reply #7 on: 25/10/2007 16:10 »
Salam alal mumineen, and greetings to all people here :)
em i hope no one minds, but in Mas Liam's post, i saw a 2 things (misunderstandings in communication) which i would like to highlight, and try mediate just ever so slightly. Mas Liam please do not misunderstand my intentions in doing so, as i am just trying to throw my 2 cents into the attempt at conflict resolution amongst pesilat of the world.

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.....Sanders is the false God
i never saw this claim... in fact Mas Bram was apparently quite complimentary in his criticisms (given the nature of criticism is the absence of concurrence)..
I have always been of the opinion that Sanders could be a great asset to the silat world if he would take time to learn more about the culture that he claims to be promoting.
So here in fact he is stating that if certain claims were retracted, in his opinion then Mr. Sanders would in fact be a very strong element within the world of silat, so do not be too aggravated my friend :) .

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Pendekar Jafri aahhh sure he was only playing around with a keris what would he know
Again i do not think you have exactly read in to Mas Bram's intended statement.
Posting Jaffri playing around with a keris doesnt proove that keris fighting is part of Cimande tradition, it just prooves that at the time Jaffri was playing with a keris for whatever reason.
This does not question the skill or knowledge of Mas Jaffri, but simple states that his practicing with the keris shows his own personal interest rather than an established heritage and tradition of cimande as a whole.

Those are only 2 small issues, but i think it shows that Mas Bram respects your art as an art of defense, but only what Mas Bram perceives as newly established traditions (that he believes are being given the status of ancient traditions) of it come under his scrutiny (as everyone is aware of). So if i was involved in such a position, maybe i would intend to focus solely on these issues in my discussion and try remain as cool as possible no matter how difficult the situation (and i appreciate that sometimes this can be hard as we are all human). This is obvious but should be highlighted as if one (instead of focusing on the actual issues) starts making personal attacks on the character of other pesilat, or deriding other aspects about them, usually this does not accomplish very much or bring the conflict any closer to resolution.
That comment is not aimed at anyone in particular but rather is a principle that i should hope i could follow in  sincerely attempting to resolve conflicts of interest. Any other course of action would appear to be an attempt to sustain levels of animosity rather than bridge the gap.

Please excuse this attempt, and CERTAINLY i had no intention of offense to any party involved or third party who may read this, so if this has unfortunately happened please forgive me in advance.

BarakAllah feekum

srdananjaya

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Re: Pendekar Mama Sukarma's Address
« Reply #8 on: 25/10/2007 17:14 »
Salam..

hmmh.. ::) still linked with the other English topic..  cimande's fighter were fighting each other...[rapat] ...0o0 yeah.. :'( (my English is bad ;D .. just "iseng" seeing this "bloody" forum and try to write in English hehehe..)

just keep "semangat..!!"  [gro] [band] [fruit]


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peace lagi ah... salam for everyone

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« Last Edit: 25/10/2007 17:39 by srdananjaya »
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