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Author Topic: Philosophical musings on our arts  (Read 23612 times)

Gajah

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #15 on: 14/12/2007 03:47 »
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My experience is that the metaphysical aspect of Silat is more important than the physical, because it makes the physical what it is.

Hmmm, I kind of think physical makes they physical what it is :-\ However, I can see how belief systems define the physical aspect. I am unsure about your use or definition of metaphysical. Meta being outside or beyond would depend on personal perspective and interpretation.

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I know nothing about physics or quantum theory, but I do know what I've been taught from Indonesian sources.

There are perhaps some theoretical comparisons expressed as metaphor, however I know little of these things.

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Gajah, do you practice Silat with no Ilmu or spirituality at all? Is this usual?


Hehehe, I am English therefore lack the capacity for spirituality >:D Seriously though, perhaps I just interpret things through a different filter. One man's God or animal spirits may just be another's metaphor for the whole, or aspects of, a physical (or perhaps metaphysical) universal interconnectedness.

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Let me say that I am against drugs of any kind, and that Pendekar Sanders discourages his students from using any kind of intoxicants. Implying that the teachings of our masters are drug-induced is very offensive and inappropriate.

Woah, ease up my man! I did not mean to offend! 'Twas merely a little humour directed at how deep things were getting. The conversation reminded me of some long nights around the campfire discussing all things metaphysical with many 'characters'.

Anyway, I don't do deep thought anymore. Against my belief system. Someone fetch me Occam's razor [pray2]




Michael Lee

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #16 on: 14/12/2007 03:48 »
Martin!  I assure that we don't do drugs.   [top]

Point of clarification, when talking about the kool-aid, was that reference to the whole Jim Jones episode where his followers followed him to suicide?  If it was, I hope you weren't suggesting that PCP is like that. 

Say it ain't so Gajah!   >:(

Michael  :)

Russian Silat

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #17 on: 14/12/2007 04:01 »
Martin, you wrote:

"Anyway, I don't do deep thought anymore. Against my belief system. Someone fetch me Occam's razor"

My intention here is to discuss the philosophical and spiritual aspects of our arts. You don't have to participate if you are not of a philosophical bend.

Humor is always appreciated- so long as its in good taste... [top]

-Russian Silat

P.S. If you are an atheist, you are the first I've met in Silat. I'm meeting all types on this site...
« Last Edit: 14/12/2007 04:03 by Russian Silat »

Gajah

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #18 on: 14/12/2007 04:07 »
Oh dear....I spelt Kool aid wrong :-[

I always thought Jim Jones was such an ordinary name for an occult leader, now David Koresh is a different matter........

Michael, I don't think my tongue in cheek sense of humour translates well to the internet forum........hmmm and sometimes in real life too..... :-X

Jerry

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #19 on: 14/12/2007 04:10 »
Russian Silat,

I AGREE COMPLETELY! It seems that the spiritual aspects are somewhat lacking in many modern pencak silat systems. The fact that someone does not believe, really doesn't matter. The result appears in the physical world when the opponent is hitting the ground and then waking up wondering how they ended up there. Whether they believe it or not, the results are the same. If these conversations about spirituality seem like ramblings to anyone here, then it makes me question the foundation of the pencak silat of which you practice!

P.S. Thanks for the good words brother, keep up the good work!

Selamat,
Jerry Jacobs

Michael Lee

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #20 on: 14/12/2007 04:20 »
No harm done Martin...  I've been having the same problem for years.   :'(

I'm a career smartaleck and as such, my intentions are often mistaken by others.  ::)

As you can see, we are pouring our hearts out here in an effort to expose the forum readers to what PCP is.  I have my own way of addressing the forum members and Fyodor has taught me that maybe I was mistaken in taking so much time in re-answering the same questions.  Maybe my time would have been better spent sharing what I know and learning from others.  That's what he's doing here with this thread.  

It is our hope that more people will join in and talk about their Silat so that all of us can learn.    :)

Warmest regards,
Michael
« Last Edit: 14/12/2007 06:36 by Cimande Fan »

Jerry

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #21 on: 14/12/2007 04:27 »
Mike,

I don't have much time to post on here, but i'm putting together a couple of posts on physical and spiritual training in PCP.

Selamat,
Jerry

Michael Lee

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #22 on: 14/12/2007 04:51 »
Dear Forum Members,

I would like you all to please welcome to this forum my good friend and teacher Guru Besar Jerry Jacobs.  He has been very busy these past few months with opening a new martial arts school in Hazel Park, Michigan and with moving Port Huron school to a new location. 

Because he's not the type of person to talk about himself, I'll relate a couple of quick facts about him to give some color as to who he is.  Jerry has been involved in Martial Arts for over 24 years and has instructor level certifications in multiple styles.  Also, for the last several years, he has taken in foster children at his home.  Not the cute little youngsters mind you, but the adolescents that have caused problems in other homes.  His son Brian was one such young man until Jerry adopted him a few years ago.  Brian is now attending college, is a Guru in Pukulan Cimande Pusaka, and is planning on becoming a U.S. Marine. 

I could say a lot more but I suspect that I've said to much already.  Please welcome Jerry Jacobs to this forum and get to know him.  I promise you that you'll be a better person for it!

Michael Fishman
« Last Edit: 14/12/2007 06:35 by Cimande Fan »

Jerry

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #23 on: 14/12/2007 05:24 »
Thank you Michael,

I have to teach in a little while, but I wanted to get this post on before I go.

As Russian Silat posted so eloquently, in PCP, we train the internal so that the external may manifest. There must be a confluence of both for the art to work properly. I will share with you another exercise that is usually only taught to senior PCP students. As russian Silat already posted, in PCP we train in the circle of creation with the elements, animals and other things that I might share if anyone is interested, you can email me privately. We also teach a fighting mode which we term "Cimande Personality". This concept is also taught in other styles and arts, however, I almost never here anyone talk about it. The idea is that when you are faced with an eminent threat, you must change your everyday personality into that of an animal, a predator. You must be able to turn it on and off like a light switch. Here's how we teach it in the beginning. I will have the student stand in the center of the circle and go into meditation. I then have them think and visual an event that could and would make them so angry and upset that they would kill someone, rip them to pieces, etc. They might think about some thugs raping and killing their wife or mother, etc. This of course is only in their mind. As they continue, they will start to get very angry, turn red, shake, etc. The idea with this initial exercise is to imagine the body as a cage that will not allow the beast to come out. You harness this tenaga dalam and keep it inside (for now). After the student has performed the exercise several times, maybe 20 to 30 times, eventually they will break out of the cage and release the Cimande Beast within. When this is accomplished, we usually have them try to contain the movement to a simple juru. Eventually, it will be completely spontaneous. the hardest part is coming back out of it. You must train it constantly and develop your own mantras to signal to go into it or come out of it. Eventually it will become as easy as a simple juru or kembangan.

Advantages to this type of training:

1. Eyes become wide open and draw in more tenaga dalam.
2. Eyes don't blink, can see more opponents.
3. Shocks and frightens the opponents.
4. You feel no pain.
5. You become ferocious, like a tiger.
6. The fight may be over before it even begins.

Regards,
Jerry Jacobs
 

Michael Lee

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #24 on: 15/12/2007 02:02 »
In the spirit of sharing and learning from each other, I want to offer to this forum a ritual that I did last night that came to us straight from Pendekar Mama of Tarik Kolot Village, Jawa Barat. 

We call it the Cimande Elder Incense Ritual

After a day of fasting, last night after sundown, I prepared 2 half cups of coffee (made from organic coffee beans) and one half cup of tea.  Adding honey to one of the cups of coffee to make it sweet, I then placed all three cups in the special room in my house that I use only for meditation.  Placing some fresh biscuits in the room as well, I was then ready for the ritual.

While burning a small portion of special incense sent to us from Pendekar Mama on the edge of a piece of charcoal, I repeatedly said the following in a loud voice:

"Embah Kahir dan Keruhun Cimande, Embah Pangring, Embah Lasiun Hadir"

(please excuse any spelling errors as I'm at work and don't have my cheat sheet in front of me!)

Once the incense was burned out, the ritual is done.  I then left the beverages and biscuits in the room.  Immediately following this I inhaled a baja burrito with extra salsa and cilantro from a local mexican place called Zumba's.  ;D

This ritual summons the Cimande Elders to watch over me and my home.  I was told to watch out for a large white spirit tiger as well as men in robes walking around my house.  I've been doing this ritual for over a year now on every 5th Thursday evening.  To date, I have never seen a spirit tiger, but on one occasion, sometime last summer, a man in white robs followed me up the stairs to my bedroom in the middle of the night after I had gone downstairs to have a late night glass of water.  I was startled to see him out of the corner of my eye, but felt no fear at all.  I remember it as clear as day. 

Has anyone else every had a similar experience?  Anything else to share along these lines? 

Michael
« Last Edit: 15/12/2007 03:06 by Cimande Fan »

Russian Silat

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #25 on: 15/12/2007 03:56 »
Greetings to all,

Thanks Mike and Guru Besar Jacobs for sharing this. I have much to learn!

I have experienced animal possession during practice under the guidance of Pendekar Sanders. In my twenties I successfully channeled the ular sendok spirit, and later in my 30's I channeled the tiger.

These experiences were extraordinary, but I need more practice. The animal has uncontrolled movements when it first comes into the body, and the connection is not 100% clear. I hope we can bring Pendekar to Mosow this spring to help us channel the spirit of the monkey. Any advice for training animal spirit possession, G.B. Jerry?

The things spoken of here are just the tip of the iceberg in our art. One of our advanced level practitioners has a special type of Ilmu- a demon actually follows him wherever he goes (perhaps "demon" isn't the right word). He was given this spirit helper in Java. He does a special juru, says a mantra, and this demon takes possession of him, and has the ability to instantly break the neck of the enemy, no matter what the enemy tries to do to prevent it.

Another one of our high-level practitioners has the ability to knock a knife out of someone's hand from across the room. I think my friends know who I'm talking about (JN). He had an unusual talent for the Ilmu. He actually stopped training because he used the Ilmu on the street to put someone's eyes out at a distance, and he was afraid to use it after that.

I remember the demonstration at Chicago field museum, we had been training with Pendekar all the day before, and we were charged with energy. Pendekar gave us all an extra charge of te naga dallam so we would do well. While we were waiting to go on stage to do our demo I was really juiced up. Out of nowhere, an Indonesian man approached me, and his eyes were glowing green, I mean like radioactivity. He just walked up to me and asked "Where did you get your power from?" I repsectfully took him over to talk to my teacher, and I don't know what they said. My teacher at the time was Jeff Davidson, so I never did get a straight answer about his subsequent encounter with this man.

Let's use this opportunity to share experiences about the non-physical part of the art- or as Guru Besar Jerry said, how the non-physical creates the physical part.

Best Regards,

Russian Silat

Gajah

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #26 on: 15/12/2007 03:57 »
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P.S. If you are an atheist, you are the first I've met in Silat. I'm meeting all types on this site...

I would probably term myself 'an open minded agnostic'-the product of a socialist athiest & Methodist upbringing, may I enquire likewise?

My Occamite reference was to lex parsimoniae.

"entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"
"entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity"

Regarding the lack of positive response that I believe has been aforementioned(maybe on another thread). Michael, I understand why PCP is providing information in the spirit of openess, but I would urge your members not to missinterpret a lack of response as ostracism. You may find people are not so much unwilling, rather forbidden to discuss such matters publically. i know from personal experience because there are a number of things I have been taught that I am not able to disclose.

Jerry, I interpret your approach as similar to certain visualisation and NLP techniques I have come across. I studied similar in India under a yogic guru many years ago, though this was to attain the opposite effect ??? However, I actually can see how 'programming' (for want of a better term) the psyche for an instantly attainable state could prove beneficial in the appropriate scenario.

However being a pesilat Harimau Berantai (Chained Tiger) I would be interested in how you apply the 'rantai'. How you make the state useful and controlled, rather than just a state of anger? How do you attain constructive aggression rather than destructive anger? I'm genuinely intested.


Gajah

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #27 on: 15/12/2007 04:17 »
Fyodor,

I hope you will respect my scepticism, as perhaps my interpretation of spirit trance varies from your own. I view it as metaphor to allow a conceptualisation of an altered state.

I am desperately trying to remember the name of a book I once read by a bone fide Western educated Indian psychologist who conducted a study relating to mental illness. He actually surprised himself in finding that traditional folk treatments (shamanic?) were actually more successful than Western treatments......I think you may find it interesting. It'll come to me later. Have you read 'The Healing Song'?

May I ask which group you are working with? Evenk, Yupik, Tungus.....?

Edit. The name Kakar has resurfaced [top]
« Last Edit: 15/12/2007 04:21 by Gajah »

Russian Silat

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #28 on: 15/12/2007 04:22 »
Gajah, I want to thank you for accepting our offer of positive dialogue, and sharing with us.

I hope G.B. Jerry answers your question soon, because I want to know too!

If you inquire about my upbringing, I would say generic American Protestant, although I have Christian Orthodox roots as well. Living in Russia has renewed my appreciation for this faith.

Today I wouldn't classify myself other than to say I seek a direct relationship with the Cosmos, which I consider to be a living being. I do not hold to the ex nihilo creation theory, I believe the Cosmos has always existed in some form, and that everything is emanated from source, providing for the unbroken continuity of all things. This excludes me from most of Judeo-Christian tradition, although I honor all faiths.

Long-winded answer, eh?

I accept the fundamental principle that there are dimensions of reality in which consciousness can exist independantly of a physical form. I believe this simple principle satisfies the spirit of Occam's razor in explaining a whole host of things.

So I buy into reincarnation, afterlife, projecting awareness, and all kinds of stuff which follows from this.

If you appreciate a qualitative attempt at justifying this, check out these links:

http://www.afterlife101.com/Reincarnation.html

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html

http://www.childpastlives.org/library.htm

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation01.html

http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/reinc.htm

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/v19/n4/bookReview-Life-Before-Life.html

These are all attempts to document near-death experiences, memories of past lives, birthmarks which represent wounds recieved in past life, etc.

Not trying to convince- I'm a firm believer that we convince ourselves, or refuse to be convinced for our own reasons which others can never know. I also think that humans have the natural right to form their own conclusions, and that this responsibility is connected with spiritual evolution.

Best Regards,

Russian Silat

P.S. Finno-Ugric group called "Mari"
« Last Edit: 15/12/2007 04:24 by Russian Silat »

Gajah

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #29 on: 15/12/2007 04:31 »
LOL, perhap's our world view is not that dissimilar ;D

Anyway, it came back to me. Many years since I read it but I found it a very interesting read as I vaguely recall.



Sudhir Kakar. Shamans, Mystics, And Doctors: A Psychological inquiry into India and its Healing Traditions. (New York: A.Knopf, 1982)

http://www.sudhirkakar.com/book5.htm

I will peruse the links when I get time. Thanks. Anyway must get away from the computer before a get a 'spirit attack' from the wife :D

 

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