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Author Topic: Philosophical musings on our arts  (Read 23614 times)

Russian Silat

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #30 on: 15/12/2007 04:40 »
Now that's funny!  ;D My wife's been shooting me dirty looks for the last hour!

Ooops, here she is...

Jerry

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #31 on: 15/12/2007 09:17 »
Hello Gajah,

Yes, it is very similar to the techniques you described. I didn't have much time to explain in detail, but anger is NOT your goal. It is only a spark to ignite the killer instinct from within. If you think about it, a tiger is not angry when it hunts, but it has a profound killer instinct. Its goal is to hunt and kill, so it may feed itself and its family, so they may live. When you practice the techniques that I described, you must do it over and over and over, and then once you can achieve this altered state at will, you must practice your pencak silat. You might have one specific juru to practice in the beginning in this fighting mode. This will allow your body to harness the tenaga dalam and contain it within the movements of the art. (SO YOU JUST DON'T SPAZ OUT). If you practice in this manner you will be able to achieve your own personal "Fighting Personality" I hope this helps, anyone else that was interested in this subject! Thank you for listening.

Salaam,
Jerry Jacobs

Jerry

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #32 on: 15/12/2007 11:11 »
Hi Russian Silat,

I'm sure you have already practiced each individual animal in the circle of creation, but I will give you a very easy technique to enhance your training. It consists of empowering or infusing a container of water with the desired animal. It's best to use spring water (NO TAP WATER). Develop your own personal mantra for the chosen animal. charge up the mantra in the circle of creation. sit in the appropriate quadrant according to which animal you are working with. Say the mantra into the water over and over, infusing it with the animal ilmu. After you are finished, you may spend more time throughout the evening infusing the water with the mantra. Use the water immediately the next day in your practice. Always practice inside the circle. Put a little water on your forehead and drink the rest. You will go into the desired animal trance immediately. Try it out Russian Silat and let me know how it works for you. It has been very powerful for us. I have some trances on video that i'm sure you would like to see. Just like with the "Cimande Personality", the more you practice, the easier it becomes!

Selamat,
G.B. Jerry
   

Ranggalana

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #33 on: 15/12/2007 12:00 »
Thank you to Ted and Jerry and other PCP seniors who are explaining their 'ilmu'.

I would like to comment as such:

In Jawanese 'ilmu' discourse there are the concepts of lungguh and kelungguhan. Lungguh means to sit, kelungguhan means to be sat on. Lungguh is desireable to all but kelungguhan is desireable for some only, namely, street theatre groups and professional 'dukun' : people who set up stall as 'someone with ilmu'. When I studied 'kapujanggan' (Jawanese poetship) I was told that I must learn to lungguh and avoid getting kelungguhan at all costs.

Some arts like getting 'sat on', for example the performance of traditional theatre 'kuda lumping' trance troups. They get possessed by animal spirits and perform for a living. But in poetry you want to be yourself. No use rewriting dead poets however powerfull they were.

Nang. Ning. Nung. Neng.
Lumakuwa saka lor mangidul
Datan noleh mangetan mangulon
Datan ana aku datan ana karsa lan pangira
Sing ana Ingsun Sunyata
Ingsun Sunyata iku tanpa Rupa.


Victory. Clarity. Prosperity. Contentment.
Walk from the North to the South
Do not look to the East or the West
Let there be no ego, no intention, no anticipation,
Let there only be the Real I
The Real I has no form.

'Ilmu' that calls spirits and surrenders the human body and soul of the practitioner to the spirit in Jawa is called 'ilmu karang', and traditional poetry warns against using this kind of ilmu for anything more serious than performance.

Kekarane ngelmu karang
Ukarane seka bangsane gaib
Iku boreh paminipun
Tan rumasuk ing daging kulup
Kapentok ing pancabaya
Ubayane mbalenjani


The thing about ilmu karang
Which comes from the unseen
Is that it is like a cosmetic powder
That does not penetrate your foreskin
When you are cornered from five directions
It's promises of power will let you down.

According to the Jawanese elders, it is always better to rely on your own resources rather that on some spirit other that God.

La hawla wa la quwwata illa billah

Warm salaams to all,
Ranggalana.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Jerry

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #34 on: 15/12/2007 13:48 »
Raggalana,

Thank you very much for your insight.  I understand what you are saying, but what i'm talking about is a little different. We don't allow our soul to be taken over by an outside entity and completely control us. If we did, then we would not need to train in pencak silat, because we would have no control over ourselves. The fact is, we are always in control. If we were not, we couldnt practice a juru while in this altered state. We call it being two headed. It's very hard to describe or put into words. Do you, or anyone else on this forum have any type of practice to develop a fighting mode in your system? I'm very interested!  :)

Warmest regards,
Jerry Jacobs
     

EricB

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #35 on: 15/12/2007 14:04 »
Jerry,

I don't think many people will speak in public about this.
For me, I have some experiences with this, but I will not write about these subjects in public.

regards, Eric

Russian Silat

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #36 on: 15/12/2007 16:35 »
Greetings to all,

I thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights. Bram especially, thank you for contributing in a positive way, I’m sure I have much to learn from you.

This thread has given me the chance to be explicit with what I know and what I have yet to learn. As such, it is a path of development, and a good reason for me to participate in this discussion board. For years I was held back by the limitations of the person I was training with, but now, thankfully, the way has been cleared for progress, and I want to make up for lost time.

Thanks G.B. Jerry for your detailed instructions for training the animal possession. Do you think we should wait for Pendekar to come, or try to experiment without him now? Remember that I will be the guy in charge, and I don’t have your level of skill in these things. I don’t want to have to keep one of my guys in a cage until I can find an exorcist!

I have understood for a long time that this type of Ilmu is acceptable to some people in Indonesia, and unacceptable for others. I respect everyone’s right to choose as they wish. I am not a Muslim, nor do I live in Javanese society, so I perhaps feel less restricted in doing these things.

So as I understand ‘Lungguh’ and ‘Kelungguhan’ mean ‘to sit on’ and ‘to be sat upon’ respectively.

Are these terms applicable to sitting on anything, such as on a chair, on the ground, etc.? The reason I ask is because in English language we make a distinction between sitting on inanimate objects and ‘sitting’ on animals, which we call ‘mounting’. My question is this; would it be more accurate to translate ‘lungguh’ as ‘to mount’ and ‘kelungguhan’ as ‘to be mounted’?

The distinction is further important because the purpose of such sitting is to ‘ride’ or ‘be ridden’. You sit on an animal for the purposes of controlling it, using its energy, but commanding it to carry you in the manner you wish.

In our style of animal spirit possession, we strive to be ‘two-headed’, as G.B. Jerry has explained. This is an important idea, because if we are not ‘two-headed’, then the animal “rides” us- but if we are 51% in control, then we “ride” the animal spirit.

Would this reflect in either ‘lungguh’ or ‘kelungguhan’? According to my current understanding, ‘lungguh’ which is desirable, would be the result of two-headed possession, while ‘kelungguhan’ would be the undesirable result of out-of-control possession.

Your input on this would be welcome.

As far as effectiveness goes, I have posted earlier about how the Ilmu has benefited me in both real-life and sparring situations. It has proven superior time and time again. I can’t explain the theory about why it works, but it does. You have greater strength, speed resistance to pain and injury, and instinctive movements. It may not be for everyone though, and as I said, I respect people’s freedom to choose. I personally believe that all things, even animal spirits, are part of the creator, His gifts to make our lives better, and that if we work with these gifts for good, then the creator gives His blessing.

It is said that Untung Surapati often used the spirit of the tiger in his body when he would fight. His followers reported seeing him actually grow larger and stronger when the tiger entered him, such that his clothes ripped open.

Perhaps we are violating taboo by discussing these things openly, but our purpose is to spread knowledge of our lineages, share information, and if the ancestors are pleased, may we continue to do so.

Best Regards,

-Russian Silat

Russian Silat

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #37 on: 15/12/2007 16:51 »
I feel I should comment again and thank Bram for the poem he gave us, and translated.

My understanding of the poem may not be correct, but I'll let all of you correct me if I'm wrong.

Spiritual experiences do not necessarily lead to overall spiritual development. You can be a master of Ilmu, be able to do magic, but this does not mean that you have mastered yourself.

In the end, when we face the final reckoning, such abilities will not substitute for having lead a spiritual life.

Having spiritual experiences are one thing, but real progress comes from living day to day according to Al-Batin. This may not be exciting or dramatic, but over time it creates a deep spiritual power, and in the final analysis, this is the ultimate goal.

Best Regards,

Russian Silat

Ranggalana

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #38 on: 15/12/2007 19:41 »
....So as I understand ‘Lungguh’ and ‘Kelungguhan’ mean ‘to sit on’ and ‘to be sat upon’ respectively.

Are these terms applicable to sitting on anything, such as on a chair, on the ground, etc.? The reason I ask is because in English language we make a distinction between sitting on inanimate objects and ‘sitting’ on animals, which we call ‘mounting’. My question is this; would it be more accurate to translate ‘lungguh’ as ‘to mount’ and ‘kelungguhan’ as ‘to be mounted’?...

-Russian Silat

Lungguh means to sit as in sit on a chair, but kelungguhan means posessed.

An other way to express the same, would be that you want to Rawuh, but not Kerawuhan. Rawuh is High Jawanese for arrive. You want to Arrive, rather than have a spirit 'arrive' in you.

The reason you don't want the kelungguhan is that the power is not yours, and these powers have the tendency to be treacherous - when you are cornered from five directions, their promises will let you down.

The Real I is stronger than any tiger spirit because the Real I is the Human Spirit and the Human Spirit, though arrogant, is stronger than mountains, respected by angels, and most beloved by God. The Real I will always be with you and needs no summoning.


Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Russian Silat

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #39 on: 15/12/2007 22:59 »
Greetings to all,

I respect your religious beliefs, and in no way wish to change them.

We, just like the masters of old, believe that there is value in letting the natural movements of animals inform us, on the spiritual and physical level. Embah Kahir was inspired by the monkey and tiger, and I see that you yourself study a crane-based system. The wisdom which the Creator imparted to these creatures can be used for combat, and we believe that same Creator made us naturally free to use this power if we so desire.

Learnng the internal portion of the art is a natural compliment to the external training- indeed the spiritual part gives birth to the physical.

We understand that the religious doctrine of some people does not allow these concepts. Thats fine. We support the right of all people to believe as they wish, without compulsion.

I submit that one of the reasons the "Real I" of human beings is so powerful is precisely because it is capable of such feats...

Otherwise, wouldn't we just look to the person to make a fighting style? This tendency to humanize the fighting arts is what our ancestors were against, because they thought the end result was to make them less effective...

Best Regards,

Russian Silat

Ranggalana

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #40 on: 16/12/2007 13:20 »
Greetings to all,

....Another one of our high-level practitioners has the ability to knock a knife out of someone's hand from across the room. I think my friends know who I'm talking about (JN). He had an unusual talent for the Ilmu. He actually stopped training because he used the Ilmu on the street to put someone's eyes out at a distance, and he was afraid to use it after that.
...

Best Regards,

Russian Silat

The story of someone's eyes getting put out at a distance, show how this type of power, that is obtained by invoking spirits, is dangerous. Who takes responsibility when something like that happens? The practitioner or the teacher, or the spirit that had been summoned?

You don't know when you might hurt more than you intended. You never know when the spirit might even want to hurt YOU!

That is why in Kejawen, this type of ilmu is called 'ilmu karang' - made up ilmu - and is used mainly for theatre. Traditionally people are warned not to trust or believe or rely on it too much. The spirits can do what they do but without God's permission they can do nothing. Discipline and training bring progress but beings from the unseen are only going to promise help and assistance for a price. Are you willing to pay the price of having jinns fight for you, for instance?

No one realy knows much about the unseen world and people who claim to know alot about it are liars... that is a memory quote from the Book of Truth.

Warm regards,
Ranggalana.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

EricB

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #41 on: 16/12/2007 15:01 »
I partly agree with Bram,

It is very dangerous to think too easy about this matter, a Jin (ghost/spirit/demon) can take possession of you and your body, you are not able to handle yourself anymore, don't use this on yourself and/or your students !!

If you cannot close or get the Jin out; accidents will happen for sure !!

I know some people who have played with it, they committed suicide wearing there full pencak silat outfit. I'm sure nobody wants to be responsible for that, but who did the damage the student or his instructor/teacher ??

Quote from: Bram
people who claim to know a lot about it are liars...

I won't cal them liars but non-sceptic, not careful, maybe ignorant.
If the claiming person believes for 100% in his teacher then he/she is not telling lies, it is true from there point of view.

People who know a little from personal experience will react corrective, to easily call them fools or liars is also a weakness, and the way of the least resistance.
But beware of the domino effect, corrected people will start thinking, offended people will counter-react. Now it is depending on what you want to achieve with your comment ?

Maybe it is our job / obligation to show them on what thin ice they are walking, because they really are in the danger-zone.
By calling someone a liar (in things he has learned from his beloved teacher) he or she will go into defence, that's obvious.
Throwing facts around without foundation will end into endless discussions like we have seen a few already.

In my humble opinion we all have to be more sceptical especially about things called the spirit-world, the wold of the unseen, the Jins and Ghosts.
have we seen them or is it because we are in a trance and just want to see something ?
Is it a race  ?  if you don't see the Jin/spirit you are not a part of the family ?? those kind of things

People beware of my words ................... don't play with these things, I cannot warn you all enough !!


* end of lesson * 
« Last Edit: 16/12/2007 16:11 by EricB »

dsbasuki

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #42 on: 16/12/2007 15:21 »
People beware of my words ................... don't play with these things, I cannot warn you all enough !! * end of lesson * 
Ampuuunnn Kang Eric....  ^:)^   ^:)^
 [run]

Salam,

Russian Silat

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #43 on: 16/12/2007 16:45 »
Warm Greetings to all,

Bram, I want to thank you for taking a civil tone with us (with a little help from the moderator), and I can assure you of reciprocity on our end.

On the matter of animal possession, you have expressed your concerns and objections admirably. I think that on this issue, we can respectfully agree to disagree. Our Aliran will continue to teach and train these things, so if students want to learn about them, they know where to go.

I may be wrong, but I believe the Islamic faith is a critical factor in accepting or rejecting animal spirit possession. I am not bound by this faith, so my views are different.

In America, many people wish to outlaw the owning of guns, because they are indeed dangerous. When untrained or unethical people get hold of them, bad things can happen. But many other people think that trained, ethical, responsible gun ownership is a blessing to society.

These two camps disagree, but they cannot agree to disagree because the debate results in binding legislation for all.

Thankfully, we can disagree about animal spirit possession, and each person will still be free to make their own choice.

Spirit animals are in some ways no different than physical animals.

If you bring a wild wolf into your home, or a cobra, yes it will effectively protect it, but could just as well attack its owner. But we are talking about the difference between finding a wild wolf to bring home, and having a trained guard dog. Very big difference.

If you have an elephant, indeed it can be trained to do circus tricks (as spirit animal possession can be theatrical). But this elephant can also be trained to do necessary tasks, and play a key role in battle.

So in other words, when it comes to animals, training is everything. In Pukulan Cimande Pusaka we do not just invite a wild animal to take control of us. The result would be just thrashing around, with unpredictable behavior. We give the animal spirit specific techniques to express itself through, and as already discussed, we insist on maintaining the dominance of our own awareness.

If you learn how to handle a gun safely, then spend time training yourself to use it, it is very safe, and provides you with many advantages.

If you train an animal to fight for you- be it a dog, a horse, an elephant, a bird of prey- then you benefit from its superior powers. Animals are superior fighters to human beings, that’s just a fact. Who would you rather face in combat, the best martial artist you know, or a wild tiger? I would always be more afraid of the tiger! They have better instinct, more strength, better reaction, more energy, more immunity to pain, and better movement than the best martial arts master.

Our Pendekar is also a master of training animals for hunting and combat (birds of prey and war horses), so he is an especially intuitive and effective guide in these matters.

So in other words, to just play with animal spirit possession would indeed be dangerous child’s play, as would be playing with guns. But to carefully train these things is another matter.

Now what if instead of a guard dog, you could have a “guard tiger”? If I can have access to this, I want it, and I’m not afraid.

So to roll around on the ground is one thing, but to weave this energy into martial techniques is something else. Guru Besar Jerry Jacobs speaks of being “two-headed” during trance, and indeed this is our goal. The training is done inside the circle of power, regulated by other teachers.

The late Pendekar Jafri encouraged our aliran to embrace these things and keep them alive. Thankfully, animal styles of Silat still exist here and there, but there was a time when the ‘powers that be’ wanted them all removed. Pendekar Jafri was a strong advocate of the animal styles, and animal possession for fighting. He was in almost constant argument with IPSI during the 1980’s regarding this.

In case people don’t know, Pendekar Jafri used to be the official representative of IPSI to the United States, such was the strength of his reputation. And he resigned from his post exactly because of this controversy. He refused to compromise the animal portions of Silat, because he thought that ‘humanizing’ Silat would rob it of most of its power, making it into an empty shell.

Pendekar Jafri is an ancestor of our art. He gave us our name, many of our techniques, and my students give him hormat at the end of each lesson. We will continue to honor his position on this matter.

But we will also continue to honor your choice to not train these things.

Best regards,

Russian Silat

P.S. Concerning the other thread, I will model Indonesian elders and express my disagreement by not responding. Everything that can be productive has already been said.

EricB

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Re: Philosophical musings on our arts
« Reply #44 on: 16/12/2007 17:47 »
what other thread do you mean Fyodor ?

can you give me a link

 

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