Philosophical musings on our arts

[Gajah]

Yes indeed Eric.

For me the actuality of the 'spirit' is irrelevent. I would perhaps see the use of a spirit as a way of conceptualising a mental state. Some may believe in an actual spirit. It does not matter really, which ever way you look at it, you may be drastically altering your normal conciousness.

Yes, I can see how spirit/psychology could be used as a fighting tool but for me at least it is not an attractive option.

This is why. I think I can perhaps say I've been in a few scrapes in the real world. I have on a number of occasions had no choice but to hurt someone to protect myself or loved ones. I'll use an example...

There was one occasion when I caught a guy sexually assaulting a female friend. I intervened, in fact my first goal was to get him away from the girl, as my thoughts were with her. I initially just pushed him away from her. However, he then tried to attack me so I had no choice but to disable him.

And there he was, on the ground at my feet. Everything in me wanted to stamp him into the ground. But I didn't. He'd hit the ground face first and had split his face from forehead almost to the tip of his nose. He was vaugely concious.

I picked him up, put him in the back of my car and took him to the nearest hospital.

Now, the point to my little real life tale is this. Despite everything, something pulled me back. That was my humanity.

There have been times when my human ferocity has shocked me. I wouldn't call it anger, more a state of detached aggression! I do not feel that I need any more than this!

My question is really, "what pulls you back?", "what if you cannot control your 'state' when you have only a split second to do so?".

If you have removed or subdued your basic humanity even for a brief instant, isn't there the possibility of overstepping the line and perhaps only knowing this too late?

[EricB]

Hormat to you Gaja aka Martin,

I totally understand what you are describing here, I have had some of those experiences also.

I try to explain things from my point of view, ...... also I try to keep it universal

When someone starts training and learning we call it "Latihan Gerak Lahir" in a way it is the birth of something new, you learn your first steps.
After a while movements are getting familiar and later they become instinctive, when you reach that point we talk about "Latihan Gerak Bathin" you don't have to think about your movement (jurus dll) anymore, you move pure on your what your mind is telling you, nobody is telling you how to move but you react instantly.
Our personal spirit is helping you move and do the right thing,
If one trains for positive things, your humanity will be overruling everything, mind is stronger then matter.

But..... If one is training to be a super-warrior, bragging around, or other negativeness, a situation like you described can be another thing.
It is possible that you permanently hurt or even kill your opponent, that is not why we train a noble art as Pencak Silat is.
If that happens to a person he/she will be thinking about what they have done, they will be totally confused, and even could become totally insane... I've seen some, they died and some of suicide.

So my point in general is: if someone trains things you must also understand what you are training for, don't do things because others do also, ask yourself why you are doing things if you don't understand them.
You have to feel it, you must have samples, you must try it with your fellow students, then you can get somewhere.

Be a man: and dare to question things your instructor/teacher/guru or whatever is asking you to do,
what can you reach by asking questions ............ a lot, you got answers
what can you reach by just doing what your asked to ........... nothing, you got question marks

==================================================
@ Martin:
 
It is not personal against you, but more in a general way that I posted this reaction
I hope this explanation is clear, forgive my lack of English language

Wassalam, Eric






 

[Gajah]

Hormat Eric,

LOL, I do have a tendency to interpret things via my own experiences and I like to look at the most straighforward explanations rather than overanalyse.

Your explanation is perfectly clear to me

I have certainly met at least one pesilat in Jawa driven to madness by occult practice. Perhaps some here may meet him wandering around a town in Jatim, dressed in a military uniform, speaking in tongues and involutarily being 'pulled' into a type of kembangan. Furthermore I have been told of many more similar tales and this includes Europeans too.

OK, I can understand trying to take on the aspect, or qualities of an animal, but I feel this is different to voluntarily inviting something external into oneself.

So, I suppose my other question would be why? Why would one feel the need to attempt to attain 'powers' beyond their own body and spirit?

[Ranggalana]

.....Now, the point to my little real life tale is this. Despite everything, something pulled me back. That was my humanity.

There have been times when my human ferocity has shocked me. I wouldn't call it anger, more a state of detached aggression! I do not feel that I need any more than this!

My question is really, "what pulls you back?", "what if you cannot control your 'state' when you have only a split second to do so?".

If you have removed or subdued your basic humanity even for a brief instant, isn't there the possibility of overstepping the line and perhaps only knowing this too late?

Very well put, Sir!

and very true as well.

Jihadis like to tell this story: at one time Ali in a swordfight threw his opponent to the ground and just as he was to kill, his enemy spat at him, making him feel anger. As soon as Ali felt anger in his heart he dropped his intent to kill. He feared that he sin if he kill a man in his anger, while he wanted to be a jihadi, who fights only for God.

When treading at the edge of life and death it is best to be aware.

In spirit possession there are usualy agreements between the human and the spirit. Usually in child's play using spirits there is a cue, a signal, a triger ... when we used to play Kolik-Kolikan here we would have a pact: the spirit would leave if someone threw some cemetery soil on to the possessed boy.

Best to be possessed only by your dedication, your life path, your responsibility here on this world. Never be possessed by the hitch-hickers of the spiritual world that need to get somewhere by taking a human body for a ride. Unless, of course, that is how you get your kicks. Truly, sudah banyak yang gila!

My question is still, in the case of a guys eyes getting put out from a distance by a PCP practitioner, who claimed responsibility? The teacher? The guy who did it? Or no one? 

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana

[Michael Lee]

WOW!!  Now this is what I'm talking about!  Stuff like this is what I'd hoped to be learning from this site.   

A lot of what's being said is beyond my personal experience and I feel that on this topic, I should stick to what I know for sure. 

That said, I want to relate one of my favorite stories about Pendekar Sanders's that deals with subjects along these lines.  Back in the summer of 1996 when I first started training in PCP, Sanders came to Detroit for a weekend seminar.  At this time, I had been training in Silat for less than a month and was very skeptical of many of the claims about ilmu I had heard from my teacher at the time, Jeff Davidson.  I had immediately recognized the technical superiority of Silat over all the martial arts I had seen, but still wasn't quite sure about the bits and pieces I had heard about fighting magick.  Remember that before I found Silat, I had had 10+ years of training in Korean martial arts, had been a high school wrestler and had been exposed to a smattering of Chinese styles as well.  I had also just returned from living and studying in Paris, France for 1 year.  That particular experience had opened my eyes to the ways of the world. 

Anyways, when Sanders was in town, he talked to us about the concept of animal possession.  Now mind you, this was the first time I’d heard of something like this and I was skeptical, but he said one thing in particular that caught my attention.  He said, "Whether or not you want to believe that you are actually being possessed by the spirit of an animal (monkey, tiger, snake and crane), or if you want to believe that it's a form of auto-hypnosis that causes you to move in a certain manner without fear, it doesn't matter.  It works."  Basically, believe an animal spirit is in your body or believe that self-hypnosis makes you think an animal spirit is in you.  Either one, doesn’t matter cause it works. 

At the time, that’s exactly what I needed to hear so that I could come to terms with a concept that was so foreign.  I didn’t believe in spirits, had my doubts about the whole concept of Tandga Dallam and really had no concept of Ilmu.  But that’s one of the special gifts that William Sanders has, the ability to teach to a western audience ideas and workings that are so foreign to our culture.  This is contrasted by Bram’s past approach towards teaching us that’s been overwhelmingly ineffective.  I don’t say that as a slam, rather I say because now that he is engaging us in a more friendly manner, he’ll find that we are 10,000x more open to what he has to say.  I’ll also add that personal examples like learning about the Keris from his grandmother are fantastic!  They paints a vivid picture for us in terms that we (anyone really) can relate to which are much better than wagging a finger at us from afar. 

Could this be the beginning of a new leaf?  I remain eternally hopeful.  

Incidentally, I know believe in Tanaga Dallam, Ilmu and animal possession.  I will also say that I can draw Tanaga Dallam into my hands, chest, legs and store it in my Cabang, and possess myself with all 4 animal spirits.  What I'm currently working on is possession with mutliple animals at once.  To date, I can summon 2 at the time same.  Hopefully, one day I will be able to handle 4 at once, and will be able to move onto the Raja Naga.

Warm regards to all,
Michael


P.S. Bram, I'm not sure who the guy is that Fyodor is talking about but I couldn't help but wonder if you had missed to name one other person that could be responsible....the attacker.  This is not to say that the Silat player shouldn't still take ownership of what he does, thereby holding himself to the highest level of responsibility, but when someone attacks someone else, they are also responsible for the repercussions.  The concept of Karma if you will.  Just thinking out loud here. 

[Russian Silat]

Greetings to all,

I thank you all for your input, it is refreshing to hear other opinions. I thought this was turning into a PCP discussion club! I’m here not just to clear the air, but to learn from other opinions as well.

Bram, I agree that there has to be control during spirit possession. The animal must enter your body and leave your body in obedience to certain words and physical triggers. One must always be able to employ human judgment to override the impulse of the animal. Without training this, I agree that it can be dangerous.

Concerning the fellow who had his eyes put out…

I would say that the primary responsibility lies with the aggressor. Don’t attack people on the street whom you don’t know!

The full story as I heard it was thus- our student, who was rather poor, was one his way to martial arts class, and his path always took him through a very bad neighborhood. On the way he was thinking of an older gentleman who lived in the neighborhood, and this older person was always in danger of being mugged. Our student was thinking of techniques this old person could use against attackers, groin strikes, knee-cap strikes, eye attacks, and the like.

Two men bent on attacking suddenly came at him from behind while he was thinking of these things. Our student got angry at the thought of being attacked, and when he turned to confront his attackers and defend himself, one of them fell to the ground, began to scream and grab his eyes. His friend tried to help him, giving our student time to run away.

It should be noted that if those guys had come any closer, they probably would have got the eye gouge anyway. This way was safer for our student, because the technique was executed from a distance. Although he was scared it was generally accepted that he was literally saved by a projection of his thought.

Again, if you take the time to train these forces, they serve you and help you. It is like police who train German Shepherds to help them during riots or other situations. The policeman gives the order, then the animal uses its superior powers to take down the bad guy. The animal is a stronger, faster and keener weapon than the policeman could ever be, and its power is in the service of the policeman.

But it takes training to do successfully. Those who are afraid of these concepts, or are disinclined because of religious beliefs should not train them.

I should add that using animal spirits for fighting is a very ancient practice, used all over the world. In fact, almost all warrior societies in ancient history have been societies of animal spirit shamanism, where new warriors were guided to knowing how to use these powers in controlled ways.

In Northern Europe, warriors called the spirit of the bear and wolf. To enter such societies, one sometimes had to physically hunt and kill a wolf or bear, then perform a special ceremony of respect to its soul. When this was accomplished, one used the skin of the animal to make a piece of clothing, and wearing this clothing helped to enter into possession. “Berserk”, from the Vikings known as ‘Berserkers’ actually means “bear-shirt”.

Africans and American Indians also used spirit possession to make them stronger and to provide immunity from pain and injury. This is a world-wide phenomenon.

To be able to use the powers of an animal spirit and see through its senses used to be considered an essential survival skill for hunting, navigating one’s way through the wilderness, knowing which plants were useful for food and medicine (animals know this naturally), predicting the weather, and protecting one’s self from dangerous predators or human enemies.

This type of knowledge is the heritage of the entire human race. We have a natural birthright to it. If someone chooses to limit themselves or be afraid, it is entirely up to you if you wish to accept their limitations as your own.

Best regards,

Russian Silat

P.S. Eric, I was referring to remaining silent about the Q&A thread. There seems to be a kind of double standard between our style and the dethuars; it is allowed to rip on us for months at a time on multiple threads, but when these folks are brought up they are protected like sacred cows.

Just an observation, I may be wrong.

[f4iz]

Hi to all,
I would like to share a few stories regarding the use of Spirits or Ilmu.
Let me start off by saying I'm not judging one system is superior than others. I'll leave that to each individual. I don't pursue this particular branch of Silat just out of my personal and religious belief. But thats just me.
My family used to own a small land in Kebon Baru Jakarta. There was a family who lived there kinda like a caretaker. One of the kids had learned Silat and Ilmu from a teacher. Part way thru his quest for Ilmu his teacher passed away. He became mentally ill. The family went to different people (other silat teachers, kiai, dukun) to try to help him, but last I saw him 12yrs ago his condition was still the same. He grew his hair long, had a blank stare. Sometimes he would go out in the middle of the night to climb a tree and stay there. One time we went to look at the place we say a hole about 2 meters deep 2 m long x2 m deep in the yard. We asked the mother, she said her son had dug it up with a screw driver. The mother asked why he did that, he said because he needed to hide since the enemy were coming. It was just sad. Some people said that he was not compatible with the Ilmu he was pursuing , some said that the teacher had not completed the ilmu transmission before his passing. Some people tried to pull the ilmu out of him, but they said it must be done by the person who transmitted otherwise it will be fatal.
My point is, if you're interested in these kinda of things make sure you are surounded by people who can help you in case things go South.
I know one or two person who learned Ilmu Silat Strum or Silat Hadiran. They said it was useful for them in self defense situation. When they are in a difficult situation the spirit takes over.
I've also have heard instances where it is uncontrolled. My brother in law was playing in a soccer match in Jakarta. The game was pretty close and it got a bit emotional. All of a sudden one of the players in the other team started to get really mad and attacked people. 4-5 people had to hold them down. My brother came up to the person looked at his eyes (they were red)..recited some prayers and yelled at the person. The person fainted just like that. Later people found out that the player had a guardian who was his deceased great grandfather.
So just thought of sharing that with the forum.

Regards,
Faiz

[Michael Lee]

Thank you for sharing Faiz! 

Those of us in the west have no where near the 1st hand experience level that you guys do.  As such, we love learning about this stuff from you guys.

Question for you:  Do you know what it was that made his eyes turn red?  Do you know what your brother yelled at him or what prayers he said?  Where did you brother get this knowledge? 

Thanks again!

Michael

[Gajah]

This is contrasted by Bram’s past approach towards teaching us that’s been overwhelmingly ineffective.  I don’t say that as a slam, rather I say because now that he is engaging us in a more friendly manner, he’ll find that we are 10,000x more open to what he has to say

LOL, maafkan aku Bram...but here goes....the thing is with Bram......he can come across as hot headed, opinionated and bloody minded but don't forget he is also a wellspring of knowledge! Ask and he will usualy respond with much information.

"Whether or not you want to believe that you are actually being possessed by the spirit of an animal (monkey, tiger, snake and crane), or if you want to believe that it's a form of auto-hypnosis that causes you to move in a certain manner without fear, it doesn't matter.  It works."

Now here's a question, do you think some people have a natural ability to attain a 'transformative fighting state(for want of a better term)'? Or do you think this has to be a learnt response?

I ask this for a reason. I have been able to enter a different state since childhood. This only occurs at times of danger. I have experienced the same detachment in car accidents too. Slow motion and heightened awareness. I always passed it off as the effects of an adrenaline response but that does not explain the unnerving sense of calmness and clarity.

I rarely talk this frankly, but anyone else experienced this?

I should add that using animal spirits for fighting is a very ancient practice, used all over the world. In fact, almost all warrior societies in ancient history have been societies of animal spirit shamanism, where new warriors were guided to knowing how to use these powers in controlled ways.

Indeed Fyodor, I think we would be hard pressed to find a culture that has not had this element at some point in it's history!

[Michael Lee]

Martin my friend!  I'm not sure I'm able to answer your question with any certainty, so I'll go out on a limb here and give you my best (un)educated guess.   

My thought is that it can be learned and that there are some people who possess a natural talent.  I'm thinking along the lines of genetic pre-disposition as it relates to how some people are born natural athletes, how others can't ever seem to hit the ball, but how most of lie somewhere in the middle.

Maybe you could say that psychics (the real ones..) are the natural athletes of the Ilmu world (i.e. the David Beckhams if you will ).  The ones that come across real knowledge (maybe they are born into a culture that possess it like Indonesia) are the great Ilmu people that we know and love.  For the rest of us, a varying degree of proficiency can be obtained depending upon our natural abilities and upon how much effort we put into it.

Those are my thoughts as they are today....right now... at this moment... subject to change.   

What does everyone else think?  Bram, I'd love to hear you insight on this one. 

Great question Gajah! 

Michael

[Michael Lee]

But much more importantly, what does everyone think of my new profile image?  I just figured out how to change my screename and add a photo.  

And in case you're wondering, Lee is my middle name.  It's not some reference to Bruce Lee like all my fraternity brothers used to think at Arizona State.   

Also, in case the images is to small to see, it's of 3 tigers taking a bath together.  I'm not exactly sure what statement I'm trying to make by displaying this particular image, but those tigers are adorable!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhGKcwpM3Xw

Michael

[f4iz]

Thank you for sharing Faiz! 
Question for you:  Do you know what it was that made his eyes turn red?  Do you know what your brother yelled at him or what prayers he said?  Where did you brother get this knowledge? 
Thanks again!
Michael

Hi Michael,
You're welcome. I was hoping that from the stories I told and also from others in the forum that people who are interested in these ilmu or spirit will be more informed.
The eyes of the person turned red because of lack of sleep Just kidding, they turned red because the spirit entered him when he got emotional and was about to get into a fight. At that instant I believe the spirit took over. He became really strong , like I said, 4-5 people had to hold him down. Usually these type of ilmu where it involves calling spirits or Jins, the spirit or Jins are either invited in by the practioner or enter by themselves when the person is in an emergency situation, in an imbalance emotional state, or void mental state.
My brother in law was also my senior in the Silat school we studied.
I don't remember exactly what he recited, he told me it was a verse from our Holy Scripture.
Regards,
Faiz

[Ranggalana]

.... Bram, I'd love to hear you insight on this one. 
Michael

Ngelmu iku kelakone kanthi laku
Lekase lawan kas
Tegese kas nyantosani...

Ilmu only manifests through discipline
and is complete when it brings health and prosperity.

The song above is written in the Pucung form, meaning it is a child's song, for young ones to memorize. There are some 'ilmu' that you can buy, like you can go to a kiai and get a charged sash (in Indonesia it is rather taboo to show-off those sashes, BTW) but the person who charges it must go through and maintain some sort of discipline.

So the essence of 'ilmu' is a discipline. The proof is in health and prosperity.

Because you are in the spiritual world here, once you begin to tread, you must develop your personal sense of black and white, otherwise you walk in the grey area and have no confidence. So you must here have the ability to see good and evil .... before you step over to a more Neitzchean existence.

To see this you need a life path, a dedication. Without a dedication ilmu is never completed, according to the Pucung above. This is why most 'ilmu' sources require an 'oath' - like the Patalekan Cimande. In the school I am in we have our 'Prasetya'.

Because 'ilmu' is discipline, every silat has it, at least, contained in the movement. In fact, every discipline will open doors to ilmu, if you know how to have the correct attitude in doing the discipline.

The repetition of a movement done with the correct attitude will uncover the 'ilmu' inside the movement. Kang Eric explained it in the concept of "Gerak Lahir" and "Gerak Batin".... and according to 'kawruh beksan Mataram', the correct attitude is:

1.GREGET: move with feeling.
2. SAWIJI: move with a single intention.
3. SENGGUH: move with responsibility (like if you put yourself in an awkward position, get out of it without getting out of the GREGET, SAWIJI of your movement)
4. NORA MINGKUH: move without fear, don't give up, and keep your chest open.

The continuous practise of movement with this mental attitude will bring about the ultimate in body movement according to the Mataram Mpu, which is attaining GREGEL.

Gregel, is movement like a baby, simple, natural, powerful, effortless.... you attain a pure and clean GERAK NURANI that is perfect in form and timing because you surrender your all to the Creator of the Universe who is Most Perfect. The purer your Gerak Nurani is the closer you get to attaining the Kejawen goal, of ‘Jumbuhing Kawula Gusti’ or the Union of the Slave and the Lord.
 
The problem with 'hadiran'... is that it stays in the GREGET stage and doesn't go higher and become GREGEL ... nor can it become GERAK NURANI. Also, like a song I quoted earlier says:

Kapentok ing pancabaya
Ubayane mbalenjani

Ambushed from five directions
It's promises will prove untrue.

The same goes for jimat, pusaka and such powerfull objects. In Kejawen it is advised not to rely on these things. If you practise proper Kejawen at some point you should attain:

Sugih tanpa bandha
Digdaya tanpa aji
Nglurug tanpa bala
Menang tanpa ngasorake

Wealthy without riches
Powerful without ilmu
Attack alone
Victorious without humiliating

So, yes, in Kejawen there is knowledge of spirit possession, but this knowledge is considered child's play, and the path is not considered to lead to wisdom. It doesn't lead to 'jumbuhing kawula Gusti' ... rather it leads to adigang adigung adiguna ... feelings of greatness, of strength, and of cleverness ... but they are just that, feelings. Real greatness, real strength, and real cleverness is humble and gentle and always ready to learn.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.







 

[Russian Silat]

Greetings to all,

Mas Agung the Cimande trance master, trains these things, and Pendekar Sanders has trained with him in Indonesia. He was open-minded enough to allow Sanders to tape some of the training sessions, and much of what we speak of here can be seen at the end of his ta naga dallam tape.

One sure way to tell that the person is NOT in control is that the eyes change, and become red. There is a man on the tape, and the spirit possession is visible in his eyes.

Mas Agung uses not only animal spirits, but also the natural emotions of the person, such as fear and anger, to create fighting trances. During these states everything becomes vivid, and time seems to slow down.

It is interesting to hear talk of being possessed by ancestors also. This is especially prevalent in African fighting. One channels the spirit of the strongest warrior ancestor, and he fights through you.

I do think that some families are genetically pre-disposed to have these abilities, whether it be from animal spirits, anger, or ancestral possession. Additionally, I believe that if you have these latent abilities, NOT TRAINING THEM IS MORE DANGEROUS THAN TRAINING THEM!

People in my family go into possession when they fight. I have an uncle who I’ve seen lift and throw someone by the throat. He only has to look an opponent in the eye to make him back down. My grandfather got into trouble in his youth because he beat four policemen rather badly. Whenever people in my family sense an enemy, an injustice, or if people act confrontational with them, they go into a combative state. They are also impatient, and easily aggravated. Rather than deal with people’s indecisiveness and stubbornness, they’d rather just do things themselves.

This can be dangerous if it isn’t trained. People in my family have committed murder while in this state, only to regret it afterwards. Before I trained PCP, I was afraid of all types of confrontation, because of the power unleashed.

The first time I experienced possession I was a child. A larger boy hit me in the head, and I didn’t even feel it. With no prior training, I proceeded to work him over quite thoroughly. Then when I was sixteen I had an old car, and someone vandalized it. When I found my car, two people were inside it, looking for something to steal. I went into possession immediately, ran towards my car, and pulled both of them out by the neck, and started to beat them badly. They were older boys who I would have been afraid of in other circumstances, but at this time I felt no fear, and they had to run away from me to avoid further damage.

Time slowed down, and I felt crystal clear about what I was doing- everything was instinctual. It was actually quite euphoric.

I prefer to train this power, because it will exist in me regardless. Not training it is like owning a gun without knowing how to use it- foolish.

Those who have trained with me and seen me move know that I have something which cannot be taught, only cultivated. When the inner warrior wakes up, you need to be in charge of him, otherwise bad stuff will happen.

I thank the other board members for sharing their knowledge and experience. This is the type of dialogue I had hoped for here.

Best Regards,

Russian Silat

[D]

Becoming a dragon that is unbeatable, it’s a nice thought but when someone smacks you one you will soon be brought back to planet earth and reconsider the concept.

Knocking knives out of peoples hands from a distance.

Putting peoples eyes out from a distance.

Spirits that follow you and brake peoples neck.

Indonesian men with green glowing eyes.

Using Magic to fight people and casting spells.

Animal possession or even physically turning into animals, I recall a story of one of the PCP members turning into a panther or tiger in a forest and another of a bat flying out of one of your guys mouths.

I choose not to believe,when you get a group of people with similar temperament together they will convince each other these things have taken place.