Philosophical musings on our arts

[Russian Silat]

Dear D,

I don't ask you to believe. I know what I've experienced, and even people on this board who generally disagree with us will admit that these things exist.

You can ask my student who was healed by Pendekar Sanders' te naga dallam if he believes or not.

Maybe I can get Pendekar Sanders to post the video footage of the knife being knocked out of someone's hand from across the room.

If you are skeptical, well, that's healthy. Seek it out and see for yourself. The world is much more than the usual person imagines.

Who's the name of the guy in Indonesia who can use his energy to cause combustion? I forgot.

You choose to not be open to these things. Your choice. May it serve you well.

Regards,

Russian Silat

P.S. By the way, I've been smacked and head-butted good. It only makes the dragon mad...

[Michael Lee]

Russian Silat, the man you speak of goes by John Chang, but he was originally known as Dynamo Jack, or "DJ," from the Blair Brothers BBC Ring of Fire documentary titled East of Karakota.

There are 2 books written about him that I know of, and they are both written by one of his students who is a Greek man named Kosta Danaos.  They are available on Amazon and are called:

The Magus of Java
&
Nei Kung

Here is the original clip of him from Ring of Fire that was filmed by the BBC in 1987:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77nD5xmL0kU

Here is a follow-up clip filmed just a few years ago by Lawrence Blair: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aos0hnwiHt8&feature=related

According to the books (I have them both), John Chang was born and raised in Indonesia and he is of Chinese extration.  He lives in Jakarta's Chinese district and the skills that he has are the result of training in a highly secret Chinese art called Nei Kung, or Mo-Pai.  Because this is a Chinese system and not Silat, I'll hold this post here.  But if anyone would like more information, please send me an email and I'll be happy to share what I know!

Best,
Michael

[D]

Russian Silat,

I did not say I dont believe there are people who posses Siddhis, I dont believe that PCP has or was passed the ilmu.

Showing a video of a member of the mo pai dose not prove that pcp can do such things, they are in no way linked with the mo pai.

I know your teacher tried to track him down when he was in Indonesia to seek instruction.

Such teachings exist but dont have much to do with anything you mentioned in your schools philosophical concepts.

[Michael Lee]

D! What's with the tude?  I don't recall Russian Silat or myself every saying that we were in any way connected to Mo-Pai.  I was simply passing along some info. for the forum members.  And the Mo-pai vid came from me, not Russian Silat.

If you don't like/believe us... nienta problema!  Just be sure as to what you're not believing!

Regards,
Michael

P.S. The story about the bat coming from someone's mouth was something that Sanders saw an Indonesian do while he was in Indonesia.  Maybe it was some sort of performance, but nonetheless, he saw it!

P.S.S. I never heard Sanders say that he tried to track down John Chang.  Not saying he didn't, just saying it's new info. to me!

[Ranggalana]

I think there are two distinct things that we are discussing as one here, namely TENAGA DALAM (correct spelling) and ILMU GAIB - ilmu of the unseen world. The two do cross over but are not the same. Tenaga Dalam is scientific and has been studied by scientist, especially the tenaga dalam of Merpati Putih, which is a Mataram silat. Ilmu Gaib, is different, and in traditional silat, is usually assosciated with DEBUS.

Debus is theatre of invincibility and bats flying out of practitioners mouths. Gorks has a few films of debus up on youtube. Debus is just as real as tenaga dalam, but it hasn't been scientifically scrutinized yet. Historically, Debus was brought by the Wali to spread Islam and the oldest debus equipment you find in the Kasepuhan museum in Cirebon. I know this because I translated an Islamic Art exhibition catalogue couple of years ago.

Tiger spirits are also popular in Jawa and Sumatera, and according to local tradition we have one here in our house. Great Grandfather's right-hand man when they opened this village killed the tiger with his bare hands and kept the spirit as a pet that guards the compound to this day.

There is ilmu that allows you to control tigers live or spiritual. Back in the late 1970's the head of the Police wanted to keep some tiger cubs as a pet. A silat teacher I know was pressed for dosh at that time and agreed to obtain the cubs. The tigers in the zoo in Yogyakarta at the time had just had cubs, so the silat master entered the zoo in the night, entered the tiger's cage by bending the bars, took the cubs, put the bars back, and sold the cubs in Jakarta.

There is also ilmu that allows the practitioner to become a tiger, and have the tiger spirit work through him. Maybe, as Russian Silat says, in the prehistoric past this method was considered to be novel and powerful. In Jawa that is no longer true, turning into a tiger or an other big animal is considered the 'easy' part of transformative magick. The higher levels of this ilmu allows you to turn into a speedy firefly.

In many areas this is considered to be black magick, and practitioners are often involved in wars of balls of fire when they clash using tenaga dalam. I once had a guru who was a Bali dalang (Pak Sija of Bone, Gianyar) and when he performed in the cemetery he would explicitly challenge all the black magis practitioners in the area to battle him spiritually, to the death. In Indonesia, if people know you practise this type of ilmu, it is considered fair to try and snatch your life force using ilmu too. In ilmu battles, the losers always die or go mad.

From what the PCP guys say, it would seem that to be able to be in trance with the spirit of the Most Powerful, the PCP members need to only take their ilmu one more step. When one of them experiences this, they will no longer think that animal spirit possession is great, fun, effective, and necessary.

Train further and selamat to all,
Ranggalana.

[Gajah]

Hmmmm, despite a number of personal experiences I still remain skeptical and choose to interpret many of these things through my Western mindset.

I still interpret spirit possession as an internal psychological transformation rather than an outside entity. I see the animal as a tool for conceptualisation. It is a very easy way to imbue a psychological transformation. Let's say a tiger, it's a powerful 'pre-packaged' idea, power and ferocity that is easily absorbed when compared to the alternative, a whole string of superhuman concepts. The animal 'spirit' is a neat ready made psychological package. But hey we're all free to frame it any way we please

As for slowing down time, heightened perceptions etc. It's the effect of adrenaline and possibly endorphins. When your reactions are speeded up, time appears to slow down. Your senses become sharpened. We all have this inate ability but some have the ability to harness an neurochemical response, others just have a neurotransmitter overload.

I personally would like to believe there is something more, and have perhaps on occasions felt this to be the case, but my rationalism will not let me.....yet

However, I have seen quite a few things that defy 'logic' too, and of course logic is culturally defined too.

Please note, it is not my intention to be critical of others beliefs, just to provide an alternate perspective.........and I might be a little bit of a  's advocate too!

[Ranggalana]

I recieved a PM from a knowledgeable brother, reminding me that I made a small mistake in explaining the Jawanese take on possession. When the spirit possessing is a jinn, an animal, or a butakala, the term is NOT kerawuhan. Kerawuhan is for, like in Bali, when people are possessed by their local gods or respected ancestor spirits.

When you are possessed by a spirit lesser than a god, it is not called kerawuhan (rawuh is High Jawanese) but is call kesambet dhemit, or ketemplekan dhemit.

[D]

Michael Lee,

If I dont believe that Sanders can knock someone out without toughing them, that people carry spirits with them that can brake peoples neck, that members of pcp can knock blades out of peoples hands or put their eyes out with mystical powers dose that mean I have an attitude?

[Russian Silat]

Greetings to all,

I want to again thank Bram for being so forthcoming with information. Now I understand why he has a reputation as a valuable contributor to this board.

He writes:

"From what the PCP guys say, it would seem that to be able to be in trance with the spirit of the Most Powerful, the PCP members need to only take their ilmu one more step. When one of them experiences this, they will no longer think that animal spirit possession is great, fun, effective, and necessary. "

I for one am totally open to learning this type of Ilmu.

D, you wrote:

"If I dont believe that Sanders can knock someone out without toughing them, that people carry spirits with them that can brake peoples neck, that members of pcp can knock blades out of peoples hands or put their eyes out with mystical powers dose that mean I have an attitude?"

No, this doesn't mean you have an attitude. But when you attack the credibility of the lineage of our master because of your pre-convieced ideas, ignoring the direct experience of many people, this does smack of attitude, especially considering that you have never met us. If you get your opinions from the internet, well...

I woul like to offer someone else's opinion regarding all of this:

"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves" ~ Carl Jung

"When we look at a rock what we are seeing is not the rock, but the effect of the rock upon us" ~ Bertrand Russell

"It is impossible for anyone to learn that which he thinks he already knows" ~ Plutarch

"A fool sees an enemy. A wise man sees a lesson to be learned"

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates

"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge"

"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world" ~ Schopenhauer

"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science" ~ Einstein

"The highest mountain of all to overcome is one's own preconceptions" - du Gabriel

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" ~ Philip K. Dick

"The greatest homage to truth is to use it" ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident" ~ Schopenhauer

"Whatever you think you are, that's not what you are" ~ Ajahn Sumedho

Best regards,

Russian Silat

[D]

Just because a group or community of individuals with similar temperaments say something is so it dose not automatically neutralize my scepticism.

Please view the following link, it shows how a group of individuals within an organization /school can be effected by something which may not work on the general public. Why don’t Sanders go into a boxing ring with a boxer and try to knock him out from a distance before he gets knocked out?  One thing you will notice is that people who practice such things will be reluctant to try then on someone who dose not belong to their group.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kb-ycDKoh6Q

Watch someone who was hypnotized to believe he was a chicken.  He walks around the stage clucking and pecking corn, would you say the spirit of a chicken went into him? It is also possible to hypnotize yourself but its all in the mind and dose not mean you possess the spirit of a tiger or a chicken.

How can someone take the spirit of a dragon when we all know there is no such thing as a dragon, where are you getting the dragon spirit from?


Regards

Darren

[Russian Silat]

No one here is trying to convince you or sell you anything Darren.

Believe whatever you wish.

But when you make it your role to go around challenging people to 'put up or shut up', this is not 'philosophical musings on our arts' it is called 'stirring up sh**'.

Go do that somewhere else.

-Russian Silat

[Michael Lee]

Michael Lee,

If I dont believe that Sanders can knock someone out without toughing them, that people carry spirits with them that can brake peoples neck, that members of pcp can knock blades out of peoples hands or put their eyes out with mystical powers dose that mean I have an attitude?

Not in the least bit Mr. Darren!  My point was that neither Russian nor myself had said that we were affiliated with Mo-Pai.  In my post I was simply informing R. Silat what I knew about the guy who started the fire with his hands.  As I have Russian's private email, I could have informed him off forum, but I thought that some of the members might be interested in hearing about John Chang as it relates to martial arts and is interesting as all hell! 

Anywho, I agree with Russian that we should try to keep this discussion civil and avoid stirring up manure.  Best of luck in whatever you're looking for and I wish you well.

Michael

[Gajah]

No, this doesn't mean you have an attitude. But when you attack the credibility of the lineage of our master because of your pre-convieced ideas, ignoring the direct experience of many people, this does smack of attitude, especially considering that you have never met us. If you get your opinions from the internet, well...

I don't think 'D' is attacking anyones credibility, rather he simply does not believe these claims. Not believing isn't part of some clandestine anti pcp conspiracy. It is simply not believing. As I said earlier, I gave up overanalysing, it can make one a little paranoid y'know

Do I discredit the Irish by not believing in leprechauns?

[puggiotto]

Everybody becomes what he thinks.

What I have read in this thread are neither magical tricks nor siddhic (occult) powers, which can come to everybody with the appropriate discipline and silat exercises. But there are another power to protect, heal and save people and materialize objects originate in God and can be used only by a real Guru. They are in no way designed, disciplined or developed, but flow from cosmic power.


There is no need for this Guru to command invisible spirits since his own divine will materializes the objects. He is everything, everywhere, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent; and so whatever He will, instantly happens. Like the qualities of truth, love and peace, these are things that generate the atmic (godly) or cosmic forces behind the universe.

There are two ways in which a Guru can help people: an instant solution as against a long term one.

Any instant solution would go against the fundamental quality of nature itself as well against the karmic law of cause and effect. Most people live in the material world of their desires and egos, which is governed by this law. They reap the fruits of their actions. This brings about their evolution or devolution. If the Guru intervenes to instantly solve their problems, it would stop all action, development, even evolution. This solution can be ruled out because it totally negates the natural laws.

The other and more effective alternative presents a long-term solution whereby the Guru leads the people themselves to a higher level of consciousness to enable them to understand the truth of spiritual laws so that they may turn towards righteousness and steadfastly work for better conditions. This will relate them back to nature and the karmic law of causation. This would then transcend the cycle of cause and effect in which today they are involved as victims and thereby command and control the natural forces.

Where is this Guru?

[Russian Silat]

I wish this Guru would start posting at SahabatSilat