Forum Sahabat Silat
English Version => Pencak Silat General Forum => Topic started by: Russian Silat on 10/12/2007 13:01
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A greeting of peace,
In an attempt to move dialogue towards constructive ends, I would like to offer my own musings on the philosophical and spiritual dimensions of the art I practice.
These are my own observations after 13 years of practice. It is wholly my personal opinion.
I invite other practitioners here post their own views about the spiritual and philosophical dimensions of the silat styles they practice. Perhaps this can serve as a bridge of understanding.
Hormat,
Godzilla
Attaining the Dragon
The goal of Pukulan Cimande Pusaka is to attain the Naga, in both its physical and spiritual sense.
The forces of nature have non-physical, spiritual, energetic aspects, which are apparent in us as well as in natural phenomenon. The different aspects and nuances of natural forces have their analogies in our minds, in our personalities, in the makeup of our character, in our emotions and even in the secret place which gives rise to our thoughts, attitudes and feelings. The Javanese believe that there is an inner, hidden connection between things such that these analogies have mutual influence upon each other in subtle ways.
Animist religion, of which Pukulan Cimande Pusaka can claim to be an expression, is about having a harmonious relationship with the forces of nature and expressing them in a balanced way in ourselves and in the world.
The history of media and artistic expression is closely tied to animism as well. When we as humans want to express a higher idea or force, we use some kind of media. Traditionally these have included dance, dramatic performance, song, drumming, ritual and poetic and graphic arts.
According to animism, all unhappiness, un-fulfillment, confusion, ill-health, personal weakness and bad luck are the result of a deficit or imbalance of natural forces as they are expressed through us.
If we expect any kind of force to express itself through us in a healthy way, we must become a healthy medium for this force. Simply wanting it to come to us, or asking it to come is not enough, although these are important too.
Just as someone cannot express themselves musically until they have mastered the medium sufficiently, practiced a certain instrument, learned music theory and so forth, so too do we have to train and condition ourselves in certain ways to be able to express certain forces. Sometimes this training takes the form of severe ascetic discipline, or adherence to a very strict and specific moral code. Sometimes it requires meditation, the memorization of prayers and ritual actions.
In Pukulan Cimande Pusaka, the medium through which we express the forces of nature is combat. And as with all media, there must be an element of artistry which opens the door. Without a genuine desire to express something subtle, something higher, all forms of media fail in their intentions, ours especially.
I have often described what we do as combative animist worship. The movements of our art are designed to alter the consciousness and express a certain type of energy. This design of our movements comes from animists who were successful in using the powers of nature to achieve their combative ends, and the physical shell of what they left us is a key to attaining the same mystical, powerful state they were in when they performed the movements. The principle is just like that of traditional prayers, the idea being that prayers spoken in a specific state can be re-spoken, and if this is done with proper intent, leads one back to the state in which they were composed. This is why it is so important in Islam to chant the Quran, for example, because it is God’s will expressed to the mind of man, put into words. In fact, I think Islam would be better off chanting the Quran and keeping its injunctions, instead of engaging in pseudo-intellectual speculations, and then using these speculations to impose restraints on Javanese culture.
The benefits of practicing Pukulan Cimande Pusaka are that the energies channeled during combat training have very strong analogies to all parts of one’s life and character, such that strengthening one’s self for combat simultaneously develops the overall spiritual, mental and emotional condition.
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The four elements
Each set of animal movements in PCP is meant to open the door to the energies of certain elements and animal fighting energies. This follows the principle of mudra from Hindu mysticism, and also yoga, but its roots are distinctly animistic.
When we perform the movements in a trance state, these energies are called into our body- in order to be expressed through our body. This is a fundamental rule. Energies will not manifest unless there is the means by which they can be expressed, and the occasion fits also. This principle will be important later when speaking of the circle of creation.
When I express an elemental energy through myself, it is as if I have had an epiphany of it. I experience it in a direct, transforming way. I am re-shaped, renewed and energized by the encounter. This is true for any spiritual epiphany; we encounter spiritual force in a direct way, and that confrontation causes fundamental changes in the way we exist and see the world. And after each encounter, our connection to that force becomes stronger, allowing it to influence and change us even more.
What I’m speaking of, experiential spirituality, is very different from dogmatic religion. It is a direct knowing of certain processes and truths, and knowing these informs us in the most perfect way how to be. It is better to guide someone to have an experience, then to ask them to accept what comes from the mind of another, unless of course you want to enslave someone.
All of our personal strengths and weakness, all of those things which determine our fate and determine our outlook can be understood in connection with the elements. We are a prisoner to the way we see reality- our ego is usually the interpreter of events, and this limits the range of responses we can make, and factors we can be aware of. When we become free of these self-imposed prisons of perception, then we have what the Javanese call “rasa”, correct intuitive knowledge.
As an example, let’s say that the fire element is unbalanced in my person. I will be aggressive, I will be prone to argument, I will be hasty to act, etc. I will let things stress me that probably shouldn’t. What this means is that I am a prisoner to these personality traits. The same set of circumstances, the same events could be experienced by me and another person, but because of my dysfunctional relationship with the fire element I will see it differently, and respond differently. I will step into a totally different future, with a totally different set of probabilities than the other person from that one theoretical point we share. I will be suspicious of the motives of others, perhaps making unfounded assumptions and guesses. People will not want to be around me for long periods of time, maybe avoid interacting with me. I can destroy personal relationships, fail to be diplomatic with the right people, or anger someone I shouldn’t.
When the elements are unbalanced, when there is an unhealthy abundance or deficit, we will find various prisons of thought, ego interpretation and response which keep us from acting according to our best destiny. This self-made prison is called “nafsa” in Javanese.
We therefore seek to understand the elements as they exist within us, and use the power-building, energy manifesting movements of PCP to give us an epiphany of the healthy element we need to influence us. Water counteracts too much fire, for example. I would be more calm and sensitive, reflect reality more instead of assume, be willing to go with the flow, etc. All of this is the opposite of suspicion, anger, and the need to control.
It is the usual state of most people to live in unbalance, which is why the world is the way it is. Even after you do the work of balancing yourself, you must maintain your balance always. Life will always offer you chances to lose your balance. We must also harmonize with the cycles of nature, because various elements and forces ebb and flow at different times. We must be aware of the affects of this in ourselves, and also realize what times are appropriate for what things. All of this knowledge is part of the Ilmu of the Bayang-Bayang Naga Penglima.
When we balance all of the elements within ourselves, we will have freed ourselves from many internal prisons, many of which we won’t be aware of until we’ve escaped. After this happens, we can see properly and respond properly. Our perception is open to seeing reality how it truly is, and we allow ourselves a broader range of possible responses. It seems like magic to people who haven’t undergone this same journey on some level, as if we know things and are capable of dealing with reality on a totally different level. This is the mind of the dragon. In Javanese culture, this is known as “Eiling”, which can be translated as being centered, remembering what you need to remember, having depth of awareness, and being an ethical person. This puts us into the state of “weneng”, meaning clarity and purity.
Circle of Creation
The circle of creation is a diagram of how things come into being, and how we create our reality. Be clear that you do in fact create your reality at any given moment. More accurately, you are now living in the reality you created not long ago, and the circle of creation you are in now is forming your future. Your life is like a series of interconnected circles, spiraling upwards like DNA. It is also like the “S” diagram footwork of Mas Jud. To gain the mind of the dragon is to work with this process in a much more far-seeing, subtle and effective way.
As Pendekar Sanders has taught, all potentiality starts in the water element. This is where things are conceptualized, given birth to in potential. Next is the earth element. This is where the stage is set, where the material conditions and potential are arranged. The fire element governs the actual process, the action of bringing in to being. It is decisive action towards the goal. The air element is the thing realized, which frees us to travel in a new realm of potentiality. The fifth element is the great matrix of what “is”, to which all accomplished energies go, to play out their karmic effects according to the will of the Cosmos.
There is really nothing mysterious about this, it is logical upon reflection. If a student needs to write a term paper, for example, the first thing is to get the idea straight in their head of what they’re going to do. Then they gather books from the library, schedule some time, and sit down at the computer. The fire element will be the actual beginning of the writing process, and the air element is the finished product. The fifth element will be how your paper affects your grade point average!
Another example is if you want a new job. You first must be clear about what you want, what is available, and what you are capable of. This is the domain of the water element. Then you craft a good resume or CV, collect references, and find out where to apply. This is the earth element, taking care of those practical matters which will allow the whole thing to happen. The fire element is actually sending out the resumes and going to interviews. The air element is your first day on the job, the fifth element is the long-term results of having made this career choice.
Pendekar Sartono put the elements on a circle, with the water in the west, earth in the south, fire in the east, air in the north. Their respective colors are blue, red, orange and white. The reason given was that this was the process of how night turned into day, so it is essentially how a new day is created in the heavens. First the sky is blue, then turns red as the sun starts to come up, then orange in the morning, becoming white at mid-day. And just as the path of the circle of creation is anti-clockwise, so too do we have to go against established momentum when we want to intentionally create something. If we just “go with the flow” we meet little resistance, but we must exert ourselves if we want to express our will. Expression of will is creative and alive, like the morning to the noontime, but passivity in life is like the setting sun- you fade away.
From this we can see how imbalances in the elements in our personality can negatively affect the way in which we create our lives. Imbalance in the water element, for example, means that we never understand what we really want, and can never imagine the right way to go, the best future for ourselves. If we aren’t in touch with who we really are and what we want, if we cannot decide for ourselves what path is best, all our efforts will go to serve something else, no matter how skillful or diligent we are. We don’t have our own true goals, so we will accept someone else’s goals, adopting them as our own.
Imbalance in the earth element means that our ideas never pan out. We never get it together enough to make things happen. We try to proceed without having laid the right foundation, or don’t manage the practical aspects as we should. Or maybe we over-plan, without ever getting out of the planning stage. We can’t get our goals “off the ground”.
If the fire element is imbalanced, we act hastily, forcing things. Impatience burns us. We are too rash, not careful enough. If we lack fire, hesitation sabotages us, or lack of motivation.
If the air element is imbalanced, we cannot see things through to completion, we stop short. Either that, or we try to finish the job too early, or are unclear and scatter-brained about what to do, how to proceed to the finish.
So we can see that the process of creating anything in life relies on the healthy participation of all the elements. One imbalance can de-rail the whole act of creation.
Sympathetic magic
If you do manage to purify your elements to a certain degree, then you will be able to exert your will with far greater effect, embracing subtleties of cause and effect unavailable to most people. But more than that, you have the sanction to perform magic. Only now will you safely be able to use magical means to enhance your will-power. If you dabble in magic before this purification, then those prisons of perception will tighten their chains as never before, and cause ALL of your willful acts to go afoul of your desires.
Once the analogy is fully grasped, it is possible to use the circle of creation to perform sympathetic magic which brings results into being. When someone ritually pantomimes the process of manifestation in the circle of creation, there is a sympathetic connection which demands that that energy find its expression in reality. All causes must have their effect.
Sympathetic magic is primal, and easy to understand once the basic concept is grasped. If you find or make something which resembles something else, there is a strong hidden connection between the two. If you understand how certain processes work, these processes can be represented ritually, and the ritual will have this same kind of sympathetic connection to the process it imitates.
When we combine the use of symbolic materials and symbolic processes, then we have a real laboratory wherein we can engineer reality, especially if we can trick ourselves (mostly our subconscious mind) into believing what we’re doing is not symbolic, but real. If our inner-self is acting as if the sympathetic magic process is the actual process, and that the representational material is the actual material, then all the creative powers of our spirit reverberate into the cosmos to help cause the change.
Using the circle of creation in training
The circle of creation has two primary functions in helping us to improve our martial arts skills. Firstly, by purifying our perceptions our reactions will be correct, enabling us to respond to our opponent in ways he himself will not be able to comprehend. We seek that state of clarity mentioned above, from which we can see without the interference of our ego filters, which include fear, anger, nervousness. The goal is to develop the ability to do the right thing at the right time, which in martial arts is everything. If the elements are balanced within you, you will not be prone to the certain “blindnesses” associated with each element in its dysfunctional state.
Second, we use sympathetic magic to determine the outcome of a technique before it is even performed. By performing different martial arts techniques in the circle of creation, (using a special methodology which we possess) we can control how these will manifest themselves in reality. It is not deterministic- no magic is. It is the creation of a ‘potential’ which seeks to express itself if conditions allow. If I perform a successful attack or defense within my circle, (by the methodology from the Untung Surapati lineage, which is a carefully guarded secret) it exists in the ether, a waiting potential. If the need ever arises to use the technique, I simply ground this potential out through my opponent by my movements. The outcome has already been strongly conditioned in my favor.
All Pukulan Cimade Pusaka techniques need to be pre-programmed in this way, if one is truly doing Ilmu. Physical and energy attacks will have special mudras and mantras which call this potential into being, triggers which were programmed using the circle of creation. Some of these mantras have existed for hundreds of years, having been programmed over and over again by generations of masters. When this type of magical training is combined with the instinctive response trance training we employ, the result is something very powerful and effective. It is true combat sorcery.
The Dragon
In all cultures, the dragon is a holy mythical creature. This is a mystical animal, different from the rest of creation.
In our art, the dragon is that which operates on a different, higher level. It is the overcoming of fragmented perceptions, able to see things in their totality, the “big picture”. The dragon can make better physical choices, because he knows better the overall dynamics of cause and effect, but he can also cause change through non-physical means. He knows how power exists in various correspondences, how to manipulate these, and how to manipulate his own belief about reality. He is not a passive victim, letting random forces dictate to his inner-self; he informs his inner-self from his higher self.
As Pendekar Sanders has said, the dragon is unfathomable. It is almost impossible for the opponent to see how the dragon attacks, and it is impossible to attack the dragon unless he himself allows it. The opponent is manipulated into doing what the dragon wants him to. In all things, the dragon operates according to his own terms, and if you must confront him, he will be the master of all aspects of the confrontation.
Our “Ta Naga Dallam”, or “Inner-Dragon” is the power we have access to when all the elements are purified and balanced. It is the power of subtle, mystical comprehension of reality, and the numinous power which accompanies this understanding. We have power from the four elements; moisture from water, body heat from fire, breath from wind and muscle power from earth, and we get these elements by breathing, drinking and eating. But the other power, the fifth element, is something different.
The various properties of this power- how it is increased, how it becomes depleted or captured, how it expresses itself in various circumstances- are taught in Pukulan Cimande Pusaka. The art is an example, a mandala of this power and the truths which govern it. This is why it is called “Pusaka”- a sacred vessel of knowledge which can be passed down through the generations.
The Dragon fighter
In reality the dragon rarely has to physically fight. Most confrontations are caused by a lack of wisdom, so wisdom is the primary martial tool, and for us wisdom means a balanced and healthy expression of the elements.
Training in Pukulan Cimande Pusaka is characterized by a lack of emotion in crisis situations, emotions which serve to filter your response. When I was younger I got into confrontations every once in awhile, and these were always times of great stress for me for various personal emotional reasons. After studying this art, I have been in a number of confrontations, but I was never nervous or scared- if anything I was extremely empty and focused. Most of the time, my would-be attacker suddenly decided it would be better to leave well enough alone, not because of anything I said, or a threatening posture I made, but because of the silence, total readiness and lack of fear they felt.
Fear actually fuels the flames of aggression. There is something primal inside of us which urges us on to attack with more ferocity when we sense fear in someone. Many predatory types rely on fear to set the stage and give them the cues and stimulus they are waiting for. Without it, it is like a rapist with impotence.
The student of Pukulan Cimande Pusaka knows that there is almost nothing that can happen to him on the street which his body isn’t already prepared to handle. His training makes him calm, because the confrontation is not a new, unknown or unusual thing he is experiencing. Any fear or uncertainty is cast upon the opponent, and this is really half the battle.
Many of my students started studying with me because they had been in confrontations, and felt as if the other styles they studied had let them down. But I know of no one who has been let down by this style in a real-life situation. No one has ever left this art because it failed them on the street; indeed, it has saved the lives of several people I know personally, men and women, although there were sometimes legal problems afterwards. One small boy had to leave the art because it enabled him to stand up to his tormenters at school- a little too well. His father stopped bringing him for lessons after he broke the leg of a much bigger, older boy who had bullied him.
My students have also reported to me that the frequency of confrontations they experienced was greatly reduced after studying this art. They simply seem to stop getting into fights. This is the first indicator that you are becoming the dragon- things begin to happen on your own terms.
The master of Pukulan Cimande Pusaka knows that everything has been decided in advance. He has trained so extensively in the circle of creation, that any attack to his person will be met by an extreme surge of potential flowing against the attacker in favor of the master. Destiny itself is on your side, because you have aligned with it, and aligned it with you. The only possible attack can come from someone who does not possess such alignment, and without these elements in place, it will be like attacking with a weak, ineffectual limb, still frozen from the night’s sleep.
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gile.. panjang banget postingannya.. :D
salam aja for sahabat russian silat [top]
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I am glad to see you sharing some of the religious/cultural aspects behind your PCP Cimande. It makes for a more mature conversation and hopefully will not lead to more negative arguments. I do recommend that you not refer to yourself as godzilla. It makes for better conversation if we know eachother by name.
Salam,
Nicholas
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Nick! We actually have a ton of positive stuff to say about Pukulan Cimande Pusaka. Trouble is that most on this forum were never interested. They'd rather just denounce us. Not that I need any more proof of this, but I believe the "Cimande makes you go hmmmmm" thread is approaching 8000 hits.
But I say let's let bygones be bygones and talk about something constructive! [top]
Something I want to add to this thread is how I explained the concept of Pukulan Cimande Pusaka (PCP) to one of our new students last week. This may be equally appropriate for the "When is it Silat" thread, but as it's about PCP, it belongs here.
I explained that in PCP, our movement is an expression of your inner self in a combative form.
An Analogy ....
When students enter a painting class, they are all given a canvas, some paint, and some instructions by the teacher about form, design, texture, etc.. etc.. (I'm not a painter so please excuse if the terms aren't correct). The students then paint as they see fit. They use various brush sizes and brush strokes. They paint in whatever colors they feel will express what they want to express best. They paint whatever shapes they feel will express best what they want to express. If the entire class is told to paint a bowl of fruit, everyone will paint it in a unique way. To be sure, the bowl will probably have an apple, maybe a banana or some pears. I’d venture to say that each painting will have fruits in different orders. Each painting will have fruits of different size, different hue and maybe of different colors.
In short, each painting is of a bowl of fruit, but every painting is different because they are all expressions from the individual artist’s hand.
So it is with PCP. We do punch and kicks (canvas and paint). We have high and low postures (design). We have our favorite techniques and ways of attacking (form). We have weapons of various sorts (texture). But what makes our movement unique is that it’s “made up,” for lack of a better term, by the practitioner. It’s movement that it’s an expression of the individual PCP player. To be sure, it will contain punches and kicks and takedowns and joints destructions, but once the basics are learned, the PCP individual expresses himself in his (or her) own unique way through martial movement.
That’s what makes it Pukulan Cimande Pusaka movement. For sure, we certainly don’t have a monopoly on self-expression through combative movement. I’ll even venture to say that if you re-write my above text and substitute every time I say PCP for the word “Silat,” what I just wrote would still be more or less valid.
Let me also say to Fyodor THANK YOU for taking all that time to share so much of yourself. I want to say a couple of fast facts about Fyodor that the general reader may not know:
Between 1989 – 1993, he was an active member of the United States Marine Corps where he fought in Operation Desert Storm. He is currently married with children and living in Moscow where he's doing research for his Doctoral Thesis in Anthropology on indigenous shamanistic inhabitants of Russia.
I say this because I doubt that he will, and I think its important background information that speaks to his creditability as both a human being and a martial artists. 8) Despite his chosen moniker of "Godzilla," he's actually a pretty humble guy...until you rile him up that is. Godzilla... LOLOL!! You're frickin' killin' me bro! [lucu]
Warmest regards to all,
Michael
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Thanks for that, Mike.
These arts are so interesting, I believe that is why they have survived intact for so long.
I seriously doubt people get as much pleasure from Karate, for example.
Once a person "finds the thread" of knowledge, it becomes an interesting life-long companion, teaching you about many things.
I would be interested in the other members sharing their spiritual experiences of Silat, or the spiritual dimensions of their training.
Anyone?
Best Regards,
Guru Fyodor
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Between 1989 – 1993, he was an active member of the United States Marine Corps where he fought in Operation Desert Storm. He is currently married with children and living in Moscow where he's doing research for his Doctoral Thesis in Anthropology on indigenous shamanistic inhabitants of Russia.
Ah, I see. That's explains that little bit of 'shock and awe' and the Geertz :P
Also the appreciation of 'the drum' that is prevalent in much shamanism and certainly the Samoyedic groups and of course the broken rythmn of silat.
I see Godzuki is something of an eclectic syncretic himself from his writings :)
But what makes our movement unique is that it’s “made up,” for lack of a better term, by the practitioner. It’s movement that it’s an expression of the individual PCP player. To be sure, it will contain punches and kicks and takedowns and joints destructions, but once the basics are learned, the PCP individual expresses himself in his (or her) own unique way through martial movement.
Not just PCP Michael, I think this principle is included in a lot of silat! You see, what I like with silat is it is not just 'counter A with B', on the contrary, individual expression and interpretation is encouraged allowing us all to develop an individual flavour and adaptability. In essence there is not the 'one size fits all' mentality of many other arts, and as we all know we are all different sizes, shapes, temperaments..........
For instance, going back in time, I could never have said to my old karate teacher, "I prefer to use a hammerfist rather than a chop with that move". Of course the response would generally be "but the move IS a chop".
Now, also going back a while when I was a murid baru......reminds me of a very simple indication of flow and adaptiveness. One of our drills has a chop to the throat. I thought I'd be a bit cheeky one day & throw a hammerfist to the point of the jaw instead.
Instead of, "wrong move" I got the response of "good, good". So, instead of the rigidity of former arts, I now had the freedom and responsibility to assemble the fragments as I saw fit. Of course my teacher gave me these fragments....
Anyway, that's pecahan for us!
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.... When we become free of these self-imposed prisons of perception, then we have what the Javanese call “rasa”, correct intuitive knowledge.
...When the elements are unbalanced, when there is an unhealthy abundance or deficit, we will find various prisons of thought, ego interpretation and response which keep us from acting according to our best destiny. This self-made prison is called “nafsa” in Javanese....
This is the mind of the dragon. In Javanese culture, this is known as “Eiling”, which can be translated as being centered, remembering what you need to remember, having depth of awareness, and being an ethical person. This puts us into the state of “weneng”, meaning clarity and purity.
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Fyodor,
Thank you for the coherent explanation of PCP's kebatinan. Well, from what you write I wouyld say PCP is very syncretic, using Jawanese Kejawen concepts in a Sunda based art.
What is not clear to me :
1) What school / perguruan is Pak Sartono affiliated to and who gave him the tittle pendekar?
2) It seems that from your explanation the main part of kebatinan in PCPO comes from Sartono. What has happened to the kebatinan from Banten and Tarikolot? Do not these two systems have their own, whole, intergrated kebatinan and ilmu?
An other thing might be typos, or it might be transcribing from handwriting. There is no 'nafsa' in Jawa kebatinan... there is NAFSU, which entered Jawa kebatinan throught Sufism. The Arabic would be NAFS, and in Jawa, this is often interpreted as the 4 spiritual siblings we all have.
There is no Jawa word 'Eiling' - you must mean 'ELING' which means what you say it does. Again, this comes from Sufism, where it is practiced as 'remembrance of Allah' and is attained through 'dzikir'. For example, we can se the use of the word eling in a 'dandanggula' poem atributed to Sunan Kalijaga... which goes:
Eling, eling, pra kadang den eling
Urip ira ning donya tan suwe
Bebasan mung mampir ngombe
Cinecep nulya wangsul
Mring asaling sangkaning neki
begja kang wus pana
sangkan paranipun
dedalan kang den ambah
mrih rahayu lumampah margi utami
sejatining kasidan....
I think for clarity, you would say WENING rather than WENENG.
So Fyodor, though you say that your kebatinan and your movement is an expression of animism, you have borrowed central concepts in your kebatinan from Islam.
Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.
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Hello Bram,
Thank you for your feedback on my essay, I hope you received some insight into our art. You will have to forgive my lack of competency in Indonesian language, I have never studied it. Indeed, some of these words I have never seen in print before. If you insist on proper spelling and pronunciation, I’m afraid that in this department you will have to be my teacher.
To answer your question about Pendekar Sartono…
The lineage of Untung Surapati was passed on to Sartono from his teacher, Kiyai Donowongso. The Ilmu from Untung Surapati is the ability to summon any deceased master of any style and attain their knowledge. This is the Ilmu that Pendekar Sanders now possesses, which he passes on to his students. Pendekar Sartono referred to this ability as “Silat Surapati”, and his base of physical Silat was from the style of Abdul Jabar, and Sheik Abdulkadir Jaelani. These names were used in a mantra, and the result is that their fighting knowledge would flow into the practitioner. So in other words, 'Silat Surapati' is what happens as the result of summoning the knowledge connected with these names. The names are used as a mantra in the summoning proccess. Sartono practiced physical Silat in his youth, but then specialized only in the metaphysical aspects, which he considered the real Silat. After mastering the Ilmu of Untung Surapati, to study any particular style became redundant. He was introduced by Pendekar Jafri and Sirait with the title 'Pendekar', and they stood in awe of him.
In my essay, I was musing only on the parts of the art which I’m currently studying. We also have from Pendekar Mama various mantras, fastings and other traditional Cimande spiritual methods, but these are not for discussion on a public forum. Join our art in good faith, and we will be happy to teach you.
Pendekar Sanders was introduced to Pendekar Sartono by Pendekars Sirait and Jafri, who considered him the premier practitioner of Ilmu. We have Ilmu from other sources, but Pendekar Sartono is our main influence. If you have further doubts about Pendekar Sartono, I suggest you seek him out personally and experience his Ilmu for yourself, and ask about his credentials.
Syncretism is a feature of classical Javanese culture. I am not a syncretist, because I don’t have enough knowledge to be able to put the pieces together in a coherent way. But the late Mas Jud was, and he had similar problems to what we are having today. He and his family were ‘Abangan’ believers, and he mixed traditional Cimande with Cikalong, Animal styles, and whatever else he wanted, and deviated from an exclusive Islamic focus. Because of this, he and his family were harassed, and had to move several times to new locations. He was part of an Islamic organization called “Dawru Islam”, I believe (don’t prosecute me for spelling errors!), and when he no longer wanted to embrace this philosophy, the organization tried to make life difficult for him. By the way, he was also a master of Ilmu Kontac, and this Ilmu is part of PCP through the Mas Jud lineage.
Now concerning the four brothers…
I understand that this idea has its analogue in Sufism. To say that it is ‘Sufism’ or ‘Animism’ exclusively would be intellectually dishonest. Sufism borrows from Kejawen, Hesychasm, Tantra, Kabbala, western magic (magic squares), and many other sources. The native traditions of Java have been equally influenced by Islam. This, to my mind, is fascinating and beautiful…
The fact is that the Animist variant of the four brothers exists openly on Bali, divorced from Islam. So which variant came first, the Animist variant or the Sufi variant? If we consider the relative age of both traditions as they exist in the archipelago, I think animism takes the elder place, even if it once existed through different names.
This is compounded by the fact that Islam has a long history of incorporating and assuming local Pagan/Animist forms, then claiming them for itself. Islam has traditionally re-defined older traditions, just like Christianity.
For example, it is a well understood that the Kaaba, the Hajj, and all the rites associated with it long pre-dated the Prophet (P.B.U.H.) as a part of Arabic polytheism.
Therefore, when we speak of borrowing we enter into another discussion altogether. I for one am happy to admit the influence of Islamic Sufism in my art, and in my personal philosophy. I am happy that we teach Ta Naga Dallam jurus which use the most perfect names of Allah as mantras.
I hope I have answered your questions (but I’m sure just the same you’ll never be satisfied).
-Russian Silat
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So let me see if I can put the fine point on this, and hopefully soothe alot of ruffled feathers in the proccess...
Pukulan Cimande Pusaka has been criticized and attacked because it displays features not consistent with traditional Cimande. People assume that some guy from California made a bunch of stuff up, and decided "Cimande" would be a good name for it all.
If this were indeed the case, then your grounds for anger and outrage are completely justified.
However, this is NOT the case...
The primary source of our physical art is the lineage of Mas Jud. HE WAS THE ONE WHO MIXED TRADITIONAL CIMANDE WITH OTHER ELEMENTS! That's why it is different that what you normally see.
This should be a source of interest and scholarly research, not persecution.
We practice his version of Cimande, and have changed nothing.
Mas Jud was persecuted during his lifetime for doing this, and we inherit this legacy also. I believe it's time to lay it to rest.
Is Pendekar Sartono's Ilmu part of traditional Cimande?
No, it isn't. But this is what our Master's Masters brought him to and told him to learn. We honor this.
People are mad that we use the word "Pusaka". Pendekar Jafri gave us that name, we didn't assume it ourselves. It is meant to offend no one.
Does PCP contain traditional Cimande and Cimande Ilmu? Absolutely. We have the full Embah Kahir heritage as given through Pendekar Mama.
Please, let's move foreward...
Peace,
Russian Silat
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Agreed Russian Silat... I mean Godzilla... no wait... I mean Fyodor! ;D
Let's move forward!
On that note, I'm pleased to announce that Pendekar Williams Sanders will at the new King Tiger School of Martial Arts for a seminar March 15th and 16th, 2008. The seminar is open to the public and all are welcome. Topics covered will be Crane Jurus & fighting and Keris fighting.
If anyone would like more information feel free to contact me personally.
Michael
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A greeting of peace to all,
Hi Mike. I sent Godzilla back into the ocean, and hopefully he can stay there.
I would like to move the discussion back towards the philosophy and spirituality surrounding our arts, and would be extremely grateful if others would share their impressions as well. I would be especially interested in hearing about direct experiences with Ilmu, and healing.
I have seen my master, Pendekar Sanders, use Ilmu on several occasions both combatively, and to heal. I’ve personally seen him use Ilmu to knock people to the ground, make them lose consciousness, make them lose their strength, and to manipulate their emotions of fear and anger.
But also to heal. One good example is my senior student Sergei in Russia. Sergei had fractured his wrist in several places, and because it wasn’t set properly by Russian doctors, it didn’t heal right, and caused him constant pain. This pain had gone on for more than three years.
After our seminar, Pendekar Sanders spent about ten minutes with him, and channeled his ta naga dallam through the affected area. Sergei said he felt as if electricity and heat were running through his wrist the whole time. After Pendekar Sanders finished, Sergei realized that his pain was totally gone, and ever since that time, his wrist has been perfectly healthy. I didn’t see Sergei for about two years, and when I saw him again one of the first things I asked was “how’s your wrist?”. He just smiled and said “great!”.
This is one reason why PCP has gained credibility in Russia, and why we continue to train it.
I personally have had success in using the techniques taught by my master both combatively, and to heal.
A regular part of our Ilmu training in Russia is to practice temporarily causing weakness in our opponents. We can’t do it with the power and consistency of Pendekar Sanders yet, but we are still training, and have some successes.
The Ilmu has helped me in several confrontations I’ve had here in Russia. Russia can be a very violent place, especially in Moscow. More than once I have had people confront me, and I have used Ilmu techniques to make them suddenly very afraid, so that they left me alone. This results from training yourself to feel fear, then suddenly shut the fear off, whereupon it will attach itself to the opponent.
When people did attack me, they suddenly became confused about what to do, while everything was easy for me.
I have also used te naga dallam to take away headaches, and to relieve people of pain and tension. Some of my students had never felt energy before and were skeptical it even existed, but I was able to help them to feel and understand it.
I hope I’m not bragging, because I am no master at these things! I have only basic skills. Others in our art are more adept than me.
I have much more to learn, and hopefully will learn something from your responses.
Peace,
Russian Silat
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When I was with Pendekar Sanders recently in Ireland, I had the chance to ask him more about the teachings of Pendekar Sartono. Together with Guru Besar Liam, we were walking in the beautiful countryside of Ireland, in a place of incredible beauty and power. There were green mountains surrounding us, and we were in a grove of giant, ancient trees. It was a truly mystical place, and the perfect setting for hearing the teachings.
He spoke more of the circle of creation. Every period of our life is like a circle of creation. We live in the now, but we also create the future we are moving into. Life is like moving through a series of spheres, some of them large, some small. Each movement in to the future is like being born again into a new variant of our destiny.
In each period of our life, we exist as if in an egg, waiting to hatch into the future. The egg must be broken from the inside out in order to move forward. In nature, failure to do this results in stagnation and death.
The snake is holy also because it knows to shed its skin and renew itself.
In this analogy, the shell represents the old ego beliefs which we collect around ourselves. Because we tend to be reactionary, seeing everything through the lens of what we think we already know, life experience imparts ego beliefs to us, and sometimes these beliefs are necessary to that stage of our evolution. But when the lessons of that stage are learned, the ego beliefs must be abandoned, otherwise they prevent you from moving forward.
This is one meaning of the phrase “om awingam atsu”, may there be no hindrance. Pendekar taught us long ago "do not accept other people's limitatons as your own". Your own ego beliefs are burden enough, but if you willingly assume other people's dogma as well, you can become quite lost along the journey of life.
In a previous post, we looked at how imbalance in the elements causes us to create prisons of perception. These prisons are the egg shell which needs to be broken.
Destiny is like circles within circles. Each moment of life gives us a chance to decide, and our decision places us on a new branch of our life’s path, sends us in a different direction. Cycles of time are small, such as one moment, or they are large, such as the cycle of childhood, the cycle of a season, or the cycles of the Javanese calendar. At the end of each old cycle, the ego beliefs you hold determine the trajectory you travel into the new cycle.
So how do we know we are walking the true path? How do we navigate our way through to the end of life and beyond successfully, fulfilling God’s purpose for our lives?
At each moment of choice we must be as clear as possible. If we balance the elements, and purify our ego of its dogmatic beliefs, we can see reality, and respond correctly as we should.
The result of practicing this transforms the “egg” into the “cocoon”. Now our life is not a shell which needs to be broken free from, it becomes a cocoon in which we undergo transformation. At the end of life, we emerge as a butterfly, free from ego and able to fly in any direction. We leave the constraints of time and space behind forever.
When we let the events of life happen to us randomly, our process of evolution is a series of egg shells which we must break free from with pain. When we work with our destiny by letting go of ego and seeking balance with nature, harmony with the elements, we weave the nurturing environment we need to help us evolve according to God’s will.
I thank the members of this board for providing the occasion to make these things explicit in writing.
Peace-
Russian Silat
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Woah, you guys certainly like to muse philosophical, and there was me thinking we'd be having a little talk about individual expression within MA :) Are you sure you've not been partaking in a little too many herbal cigarettes :) I've also had a day when one of my physicist colleages went all quantum. Of course he could have been right and wrong-at the same time ;D
Anyway, after many years of pondering such things myself, I made a concious choice not to ponder any longer. This was via Sufi mystics, Hindu saddhus and so on and on.....deserts, mountains and caves and so on and on ::) Lot's of metaphysical claims, psuedo scientific mystic rhetoric & what not, but I have never really been convinced.
Now, I do believe that some people can master a greater connection and understanding between mind and body, that allows them to use their physical rescources to a level that beyond the 'normal'.
So guys, no offence intended but I'll have to respectfully not believe :-X
Anyway, I must go top up my cool aid :P
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That's okay, Gajah, I respect your right to believe or not believe.
My experience is that the metaphysical aspect of Silat is more important than the physical, because it makes the physical what it is.
I know nothing about physics or quantum theory, but I do know what I've been taught from Indonesian sources.
Gajah, do you practice Silat with no Ilmu or spirituality at all? Is this usual?
Let me say that I am against drugs of any kind, and that Pendekar Sanders discourages his students from using any kind of intoxicants. Implying that the teachings of our masters are drug-induced is very offensive and inappropriate.
Peace,
Russian Silat
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My experience is that the metaphysical aspect of Silat is more important than the physical, because it makes the physical what it is.
Hmmm, I kind of think physical makes they physical what it is :-\ However, I can see how belief systems define the physical aspect. I am unsure about your use or definition of metaphysical. Meta being outside or beyond would depend on personal perspective and interpretation.
I know nothing about physics or quantum theory, but I do know what I've been taught from Indonesian sources.
There are perhaps some theoretical comparisons expressed as metaphor, however I know little of these things.
Gajah, do you practice Silat with no Ilmu or spirituality at all? Is this usual?
Hehehe, I am English therefore lack the capacity for spirituality >:D Seriously though, perhaps I just interpret things through a different filter. One man's God or animal spirits may just be another's metaphor for the whole, or aspects of, a physical (or perhaps metaphysical) universal interconnectedness.
Let me say that I am against drugs of any kind, and that Pendekar Sanders discourages his students from using any kind of intoxicants. Implying that the teachings of our masters are drug-induced is very offensive and inappropriate.
Woah, ease up my man! I did not mean to offend! 'Twas merely a little humour directed at how deep things were getting. The conversation reminded me of some long nights around the campfire discussing all things metaphysical with many 'characters'.
Anyway, I don't do deep thought anymore. Against my belief system. Someone fetch me Occam's razor [pray2]
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Martin! I assure that we don't do drugs. [top]
Point of clarification, when talking about the kool-aid, was that reference to the whole Jim Jones episode where his followers followed him to suicide? If it was, I hope you weren't suggesting that PCP is like that.
Say it ain't so Gajah! >:(
Michael :)
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Martin, you wrote:
"Anyway, I don't do deep thought anymore. Against my belief system. Someone fetch me Occam's razor"
My intention here is to discuss the philosophical and spiritual aspects of our arts. You don't have to participate if you are not of a philosophical bend.
Humor is always appreciated- so long as its in good taste... [top]
-Russian Silat
P.S. If you are an atheist, you are the first I've met in Silat. I'm meeting all types on this site...
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Oh dear....I spelt Kool aid wrong :-[
I always thought Jim Jones was such an ordinary name for an occult leader, now David Koresh is a different matter........
Michael, I don't think my tongue in cheek sense of humour translates well to the internet forum........hmmm and sometimes in real life too..... :-X
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Russian Silat,
I AGREE COMPLETELY! It seems that the spiritual aspects are somewhat lacking in many modern pencak silat systems. The fact that someone does not believe, really doesn't matter. The result appears in the physical world when the opponent is hitting the ground and then waking up wondering how they ended up there. Whether they believe it or not, the results are the same. If these conversations about spirituality seem like ramblings to anyone here, then it makes me question the foundation of the pencak silat of which you practice!
P.S. Thanks for the good words brother, keep up the good work!
Selamat,
Jerry Jacobs
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No harm done Martin... I've been having the same problem for years. :'(
I'm a career smartaleck and as such, my intentions are often mistaken by others. ::)
As you can see, we are pouring our hearts out here in an effort to expose the forum readers to what PCP is. I have my own way of addressing the forum members and Fyodor has taught me that maybe I was mistaken in taking so much time in re-answering the same questions. Maybe my time would have been better spent sharing what I know and learning from others. That's what he's doing here with this thread.
It is our hope that more people will join in and talk about their Silat so that all of us can learn. :)
Warmest regards,
Michael
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Mike,
I don't have much time to post on here, but i'm putting together a couple of posts on physical and spiritual training in PCP.
Selamat,
Jerry
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Dear Forum Members,
I would like you all to please welcome to this forum my good friend and teacher Guru Besar Jerry Jacobs. He has been very busy these past few months with opening a new martial arts school in Hazel Park, Michigan and with moving Port Huron school to a new location.
Because he's not the type of person to talk about himself, I'll relate a couple of quick facts about him to give some color as to who he is. Jerry has been involved in Martial Arts for over 24 years and has instructor level certifications in multiple styles. Also, for the last several years, he has taken in foster children at his home. Not the cute little youngsters mind you, but the adolescents that have caused problems in other homes. His son Brian was one such young man until Jerry adopted him a few years ago. Brian is now attending college, is a Guru in Pukulan Cimande Pusaka, and is planning on becoming a U.S. Marine.
I could say a lot more but I suspect that I've said to much already. Please welcome Jerry Jacobs to this forum and get to know him. I promise you that you'll be a better person for it!
Michael Fishman
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Thank you Michael,
I have to teach in a little while, but I wanted to get this post on before I go.
As Russian Silat posted so eloquently, in PCP, we train the internal so that the external may manifest. There must be a confluence of both for the art to work properly. I will share with you another exercise that is usually only taught to senior PCP students. As russian Silat already posted, in PCP we train in the circle of creation with the elements, animals and other things that I might share if anyone is interested, you can email me privately. We also teach a fighting mode which we term "Cimande Personality". This concept is also taught in other styles and arts, however, I almost never here anyone talk about it. The idea is that when you are faced with an eminent threat, you must change your everyday personality into that of an animal, a predator. You must be able to turn it on and off like a light switch. Here's how we teach it in the beginning. I will have the student stand in the center of the circle and go into meditation. I then have them think and visual an event that could and would make them so angry and upset that they would kill someone, rip them to pieces, etc. They might think about some thugs raping and killing their wife or mother, etc. This of course is only in their mind. As they continue, they will start to get very angry, turn red, shake, etc. The idea with this initial exercise is to imagine the body as a cage that will not allow the beast to come out. You harness this tenaga dalam and keep it inside (for now). After the student has performed the exercise several times, maybe 20 to 30 times, eventually they will break out of the cage and release the Cimande Beast within. When this is accomplished, we usually have them try to contain the movement to a simple juru. Eventually, it will be completely spontaneous. the hardest part is coming back out of it. You must train it constantly and develop your own mantras to signal to go into it or come out of it. Eventually it will become as easy as a simple juru or kembangan.
Advantages to this type of training:
1. Eyes become wide open and draw in more tenaga dalam.
2. Eyes don't blink, can see more opponents.
3. Shocks and frightens the opponents.
4. You feel no pain.
5. You become ferocious, like a tiger.
6. The fight may be over before it even begins.
Regards,
Jerry Jacobs
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In the spirit of sharing and learning from each other, I want to offer to this forum a ritual that I did last night that came to us straight from Pendekar Mama of Tarik Kolot Village, Jawa Barat.
We call it the Cimande Elder Incense Ritual.
After a day of fasting, last night after sundown, I prepared 2 half cups of coffee (made from organic coffee beans) and one half cup of tea. Adding honey to one of the cups of coffee to make it sweet, I then placed all three cups in the special room in my house that I use only for meditation. Placing some fresh biscuits in the room as well, I was then ready for the ritual.
While burning a small portion of special incense sent to us from Pendekar Mama on the edge of a piece of charcoal, I repeatedly said the following in a loud voice:
"Embah Kahir dan Keruhun Cimande, Embah Pangring, Embah Lasiun Hadir"
(please excuse any spelling errors as I'm at work and don't have my cheat sheet in front of me!)
Once the incense was burned out, the ritual is done. I then left the beverages and biscuits in the room. Immediately following this I inhaled a baja burrito with extra salsa and cilantro from a local mexican place called Zumba's. ;D
This ritual summons the Cimande Elders to watch over me and my home. I was told to watch out for a large white spirit tiger as well as men in robes walking around my house. I've been doing this ritual for over a year now on every 5th Thursday evening. To date, I have never seen a spirit tiger, but on one occasion, sometime last summer, a man in white robs followed me up the stairs to my bedroom in the middle of the night after I had gone downstairs to have a late night glass of water. I was startled to see him out of the corner of my eye, but felt no fear at all. I remember it as clear as day.
Has anyone else every had a similar experience? Anything else to share along these lines?
Michael
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Greetings to all,
Thanks Mike and Guru Besar Jacobs for sharing this. I have much to learn!
I have experienced animal possession during practice under the guidance of Pendekar Sanders. In my twenties I successfully channeled the ular sendok spirit, and later in my 30's I channeled the tiger.
These experiences were extraordinary, but I need more practice. The animal has uncontrolled movements when it first comes into the body, and the connection is not 100% clear. I hope we can bring Pendekar to Mosow this spring to help us channel the spirit of the monkey. Any advice for training animal spirit possession, G.B. Jerry?
The things spoken of here are just the tip of the iceberg in our art. One of our advanced level practitioners has a special type of Ilmu- a demon actually follows him wherever he goes (perhaps "demon" isn't the right word). He was given this spirit helper in Java. He does a special juru, says a mantra, and this demon takes possession of him, and has the ability to instantly break the neck of the enemy, no matter what the enemy tries to do to prevent it.
Another one of our high-level practitioners has the ability to knock a knife out of someone's hand from across the room. I think my friends know who I'm talking about (JN). He had an unusual talent for the Ilmu. He actually stopped training because he used the Ilmu on the street to put someone's eyes out at a distance, and he was afraid to use it after that.
I remember the demonstration at Chicago field museum, we had been training with Pendekar all the day before, and we were charged with energy. Pendekar gave us all an extra charge of te naga dallam so we would do well. While we were waiting to go on stage to do our demo I was really juiced up. Out of nowhere, an Indonesian man approached me, and his eyes were glowing green, I mean like radioactivity. He just walked up to me and asked "Where did you get your power from?" I repsectfully took him over to talk to my teacher, and I don't know what they said. My teacher at the time was Jeff Davidson, so I never did get a straight answer about his subsequent encounter with this man.
Let's use this opportunity to share experiences about the non-physical part of the art- or as Guru Besar Jerry said, how the non-physical creates the physical part.
Best Regards,
Russian Silat
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P.S. If you are an atheist, you are the first I've met in Silat. I'm meeting all types on this site...
I would probably term myself 'an open minded agnostic'-the product of a socialist athiest & Methodist upbringing, may I enquire likewise?
My Occamite reference was to lex parsimoniae.
"entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"
"entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity"
Regarding the lack of positive response that I believe has been aforementioned(maybe on another thread). Michael, I understand why PCP is providing information in the spirit of openess, but I would urge your members not to missinterpret a lack of response as ostracism. You may find people are not so much unwilling, rather forbidden to discuss such matters publically. i know from personal experience because there are a number of things I have been taught that I am not able to disclose.
Jerry, I interpret your approach as similar to certain visualisation and NLP techniques I have come across. I studied similar in India under a yogic guru many years ago, though this was to attain the opposite effect ??? However, I actually can see how 'programming' (for want of a better term) the psyche for an instantly attainable state could prove beneficial in the appropriate scenario.
However being a pesilat Harimau Berantai (Chained Tiger) I would be interested in how you apply the 'rantai'. How you make the state useful and controlled, rather than just a state of anger? How do you attain constructive aggression rather than destructive anger? I'm genuinely intested.
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Fyodor,
I hope you will respect my scepticism, as perhaps my interpretation of spirit trance varies from your own. I view it as metaphor to allow a conceptualisation of an altered state.
I am desperately trying to remember the name of a book I once read by a bone fide Western educated Indian psychologist who conducted a study relating to mental illness. He actually surprised himself in finding that traditional folk treatments (shamanic?) were actually more successful than Western treatments......I think you may find it interesting. It'll come to me later. Have you read 'The Healing Song'?
May I ask which group you are working with? Evenk, Yupik, Tungus.....?
Edit. The name Kakar has resurfaced [top]
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Gajah, I want to thank you for accepting our offer of positive dialogue, and sharing with us.
I hope G.B. Jerry answers your question soon, because I want to know too!
If you inquire about my upbringing, I would say generic American Protestant, although I have Christian Orthodox roots as well. Living in Russia has renewed my appreciation for this faith.
Today I wouldn't classify myself other than to say I seek a direct relationship with the Cosmos, which I consider to be a living being. I do not hold to the ex nihilo creation theory, I believe the Cosmos has always existed in some form, and that everything is emanated from source, providing for the unbroken continuity of all things. This excludes me from most of Judeo-Christian tradition, although I honor all faiths.
Long-winded answer, eh?
I accept the fundamental principle that there are dimensions of reality in which consciousness can exist independantly of a physical form. I believe this simple principle satisfies the spirit of Occam's razor in explaining a whole host of things.
So I buy into reincarnation, afterlife, projecting awareness, and all kinds of stuff which follows from this.
If you appreciate a qualitative attempt at justifying this, check out these links:
http://www.afterlife101.com/Reincarnation.html
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
http://www.childpastlives.org/library.htm
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation01.html
http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/reinc.htm
http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/v19/n4/bookReview-Life-Before-Life.html
These are all attempts to document near-death experiences, memories of past lives, birthmarks which represent wounds recieved in past life, etc.
Not trying to convince- I'm a firm believer that we convince ourselves, or refuse to be convinced for our own reasons which others can never know. I also think that humans have the natural right to form their own conclusions, and that this responsibility is connected with spiritual evolution.
Best Regards,
Russian Silat
P.S. Finno-Ugric group called "Mari"
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LOL, perhap's our world view is not that dissimilar ;D
Anyway, it came back to me. Many years since I read it but I found it a very interesting read as I vaguely recall.
Sudhir Kakar. Shamans, Mystics, And Doctors: A Psychological inquiry into India and its Healing Traditions. (New York: A.Knopf, 1982)
http://www.sudhirkakar.com/book5.htm
I will peruse the links when I get time. Thanks. Anyway must get away from the computer before a get a 'spirit attack' from the wife :D
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Now that's funny! ;D My wife's been shooting me dirty looks for the last hour!
Ooops, here she is...
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Hello Gajah,
Yes, it is very similar to the techniques you described. I didn't have much time to explain in detail, but anger is NOT your goal. It is only a spark to ignite the killer instinct from within. If you think about it, a tiger is not angry when it hunts, but it has a profound killer instinct. Its goal is to hunt and kill, so it may feed itself and its family, so they may live. When you practice the techniques that I described, you must do it over and over and over, and then once you can achieve this altered state at will, you must practice your pencak silat. You might have one specific juru to practice in the beginning in this fighting mode. This will allow your body to harness the tenaga dalam and contain it within the movements of the art. (SO YOU JUST DON'T SPAZ OUT). If you practice in this manner you will be able to achieve your own personal "Fighting Personality" I hope this helps, anyone else that was interested in this subject! Thank you for listening.
Salaam,
Jerry Jacobs
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Hi Russian Silat,
I'm sure you have already practiced each individual animal in the circle of creation, but I will give you a very easy technique to enhance your training. It consists of empowering or infusing a container of water with the desired animal. It's best to use spring water (NO TAP WATER). Develop your own personal mantra for the chosen animal. charge up the mantra in the circle of creation. sit in the appropriate quadrant according to which animal you are working with. Say the mantra into the water over and over, infusing it with the animal ilmu. After you are finished, you may spend more time throughout the evening infusing the water with the mantra. Use the water immediately the next day in your practice. Always practice inside the circle. Put a little water on your forehead and drink the rest. You will go into the desired animal trance immediately. Try it out Russian Silat and let me know how it works for you. It has been very powerful for us. I have some trances on video that i'm sure you would like to see. Just like with the "Cimande Personality", the more you practice, the easier it becomes!
Selamat,
G.B. Jerry
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Thank you to Ted and Jerry and other PCP seniors who are explaining their 'ilmu'.
I would like to comment as such:
In Jawanese 'ilmu' discourse there are the concepts of lungguh and kelungguhan. Lungguh means to sit, kelungguhan means to be sat on. Lungguh is desireable to all but kelungguhan is desireable for some only, namely, street theatre groups and professional 'dukun' : people who set up stall as 'someone with ilmu'. When I studied 'kapujanggan' (Jawanese poetship) I was told that I must learn to lungguh and avoid getting kelungguhan at all costs.
Some arts like getting 'sat on', for example the performance of traditional theatre 'kuda lumping' trance troups. They get possessed by animal spirits and perform for a living. But in poetry you want to be yourself. No use rewriting dead poets however powerfull they were.
Nang. Ning. Nung. Neng.
Lumakuwa saka lor mangidul
Datan noleh mangetan mangulon
Datan ana aku datan ana karsa lan pangira
Sing ana Ingsun Sunyata
Ingsun Sunyata iku tanpa Rupa.
Victory. Clarity. Prosperity. Contentment.
Walk from the North to the South
Do not look to the East or the West
Let there be no ego, no intention, no anticipation,
Let there only be the Real I
The Real I has no form.
'Ilmu' that calls spirits and surrenders the human body and soul of the practitioner to the spirit in Jawa is called 'ilmu karang', and traditional poetry warns against using this kind of ilmu for anything more serious than performance.
Kekarane ngelmu karang
Ukarane seka bangsane gaib
Iku boreh paminipun
Tan rumasuk ing daging kulup
Kapentok ing pancabaya
Ubayane mbalenjani
The thing about ilmu karang
Which comes from the unseen
Is that it is like a cosmetic powder
That does not penetrate your foreskin
When you are cornered from five directions
It's promises of power will let you down.
According to the Jawanese elders, it is always better to rely on your own resources rather that on some spirit other that God.
La hawla wa la quwwata illa billah
Warm salaams to all,
Ranggalana.
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Raggalana,
Thank you very much for your insight. I understand what you are saying, but what i'm talking about is a little different. We don't allow our soul to be taken over by an outside entity and completely control us. If we did, then we would not need to train in pencak silat, because we would have no control over ourselves. The fact is, we are always in control. If we were not, we couldnt practice a juru while in this altered state. We call it being two headed. It's very hard to describe or put into words. Do you, or anyone else on this forum have any type of practice to develop a fighting mode in your system? I'm very interested! :)
Warmest regards,
Jerry Jacobs
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Jerry,
I don't think many people will speak in public about this.
For me, I have some experiences with this, but I will not write about these subjects in public.
regards, Eric
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Greetings to all,
I thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights. Bram especially, thank you for contributing in a positive way, I’m sure I have much to learn from you.
This thread has given me the chance to be explicit with what I know and what I have yet to learn. As such, it is a path of development, and a good reason for me to participate in this discussion board. For years I was held back by the limitations of the person I was training with, but now, thankfully, the way has been cleared for progress, and I want to make up for lost time.
Thanks G.B. Jerry for your detailed instructions for training the animal possession. Do you think we should wait for Pendekar to come, or try to experiment without him now? Remember that I will be the guy in charge, and I don’t have your level of skill in these things. I don’t want to have to keep one of my guys in a cage until I can find an exorcist!
I have understood for a long time that this type of Ilmu is acceptable to some people in Indonesia, and unacceptable for others. I respect everyone’s right to choose as they wish. I am not a Muslim, nor do I live in Javanese society, so I perhaps feel less restricted in doing these things.
So as I understand ‘Lungguh’ and ‘Kelungguhan’ mean ‘to sit on’ and ‘to be sat upon’ respectively.
Are these terms applicable to sitting on anything, such as on a chair, on the ground, etc.? The reason I ask is because in English language we make a distinction between sitting on inanimate objects and ‘sitting’ on animals, which we call ‘mounting’. My question is this; would it be more accurate to translate ‘lungguh’ as ‘to mount’ and ‘kelungguhan’ as ‘to be mounted’?
The distinction is further important because the purpose of such sitting is to ‘ride’ or ‘be ridden’. You sit on an animal for the purposes of controlling it, using its energy, but commanding it to carry you in the manner you wish.
In our style of animal spirit possession, we strive to be ‘two-headed’, as G.B. Jerry has explained. This is an important idea, because if we are not ‘two-headed’, then the animal “rides” us- but if we are 51% in control, then we “ride” the animal spirit.
Would this reflect in either ‘lungguh’ or ‘kelungguhan’? According to my current understanding, ‘lungguh’ which is desirable, would be the result of two-headed possession, while ‘kelungguhan’ would be the undesirable result of out-of-control possession.
Your input on this would be welcome.
As far as effectiveness goes, I have posted earlier about how the Ilmu has benefited me in both real-life and sparring situations. It has proven superior time and time again. I can’t explain the theory about why it works, but it does. You have greater strength, speed resistance to pain and injury, and instinctive movements. It may not be for everyone though, and as I said, I respect people’s freedom to choose. I personally believe that all things, even animal spirits, are part of the creator, His gifts to make our lives better, and that if we work with these gifts for good, then the creator gives His blessing.
It is said that Untung Surapati often used the spirit of the tiger in his body when he would fight. His followers reported seeing him actually grow larger and stronger when the tiger entered him, such that his clothes ripped open.
Perhaps we are violating taboo by discussing these things openly, but our purpose is to spread knowledge of our lineages, share information, and if the ancestors are pleased, may we continue to do so.
Best Regards,
-Russian Silat
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I feel I should comment again and thank Bram for the poem he gave us, and translated.
My understanding of the poem may not be correct, but I'll let all of you correct me if I'm wrong.
Spiritual experiences do not necessarily lead to overall spiritual development. You can be a master of Ilmu, be able to do magic, but this does not mean that you have mastered yourself.
In the end, when we face the final reckoning, such abilities will not substitute for having lead a spiritual life.
Having spiritual experiences are one thing, but real progress comes from living day to day according to Al-Batin. This may not be exciting or dramatic, but over time it creates a deep spiritual power, and in the final analysis, this is the ultimate goal.
Best Regards,
Russian Silat
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....So as I understand ‘Lungguh’ and ‘Kelungguhan’ mean ‘to sit on’ and ‘to be sat upon’ respectively.
Are these terms applicable to sitting on anything, such as on a chair, on the ground, etc.? The reason I ask is because in English language we make a distinction between sitting on inanimate objects and ‘sitting’ on animals, which we call ‘mounting’. My question is this; would it be more accurate to translate ‘lungguh’ as ‘to mount’ and ‘kelungguhan’ as ‘to be mounted’?...
-Russian Silat
Lungguh means to sit as in sit on a chair, but kelungguhan means posessed.
An other way to express the same, would be that you want to Rawuh, but not Kerawuhan. Rawuh is High Jawanese for arrive. You want to Arrive, rather than have a spirit 'arrive' in you.
The reason you don't want the kelungguhan is that the power is not yours, and these powers have the tendency to be treacherous - when you are cornered from five directions, their promises will let you down.
The Real I is stronger than any tiger spirit because the Real I is the Human Spirit and the Human Spirit, though arrogant, is stronger than mountains, respected by angels, and most beloved by God. The Real I will always be with you and needs no summoning.
Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.
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Greetings to all,
I respect your religious beliefs, and in no way wish to change them.
We, just like the masters of old, believe that there is value in letting the natural movements of animals inform us, on the spiritual and physical level. Embah Kahir was inspired by the monkey and tiger, and I see that you yourself study a crane-based system. The wisdom which the Creator imparted to these creatures can be used for combat, and we believe that same Creator made us naturally free to use this power if we so desire.
Learnng the internal portion of the art is a natural compliment to the external training- indeed the spiritual part gives birth to the physical.
We understand that the religious doctrine of some people does not allow these concepts. Thats fine. We support the right of all people to believe as they wish, without compulsion.
I submit that one of the reasons the "Real I" of human beings is so powerful is precisely because it is capable of such feats...
Otherwise, wouldn't we just look to the person to make a fighting style? This tendency to humanize the fighting arts is what our ancestors were against, because they thought the end result was to make them less effective...
Best Regards,
Russian Silat
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Greetings to all,
....Another one of our high-level practitioners has the ability to knock a knife out of someone's hand from across the room. I think my friends know who I'm talking about (JN). He had an unusual talent for the Ilmu. He actually stopped training because he used the Ilmu on the street to put someone's eyes out at a distance, and he was afraid to use it after that.
...
Best Regards,
Russian Silat
The story of someone's eyes getting put out at a distance, show how this type of power, that is obtained by invoking spirits, is dangerous. Who takes responsibility when something like that happens? The practitioner or the teacher, or the spirit that had been summoned?
You don't know when you might hurt more than you intended. You never know when the spirit might even want to hurt YOU!
That is why in Kejawen, this type of ilmu is called 'ilmu karang' - made up ilmu - and is used mainly for theatre. Traditionally people are warned not to trust or believe or rely on it too much. The spirits can do what they do but without God's permission they can do nothing. Discipline and training bring progress but beings from the unseen are only going to promise help and assistance for a price. Are you willing to pay the price of having jinns fight for you, for instance?
No one realy knows much about the unseen world and people who claim to know alot about it are liars... that is a memory quote from the Book of Truth.
Warm regards,
Ranggalana.
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I partly agree with Bram,
It is very dangerous to think too easy about this matter, a Jin (ghost/spirit/demon) can take possession of you and your body, you are not able to handle yourself anymore, don't use this on yourself and/or your students !!
If you cannot close or get the Jin out; accidents will happen for sure !!
I know some people who have played with it, they committed suicide wearing there full pencak silat outfit. I'm sure nobody wants to be responsible for that, but who did the damage the student or his instructor/teacher ??
people who claim to know a lot about it are liars...
I won't cal them liars but non-sceptic, not careful, maybe ignorant.
If the claiming person believes for 100% in his teacher then he/she is not telling lies, it is true from there point of view.
People who know a little from personal experience will react corrective, to easily call them fools or liars is also a weakness, and the way of the least resistance.
But beware of the domino effect, corrected people will start thinking, offended people will counter-react. Now it is depending on what you want to achieve with your comment ?
Maybe it is our job / obligation to show them on what thin ice they are walking, because they really are in the danger-zone.
By calling someone a liar (in things he has learned from his beloved teacher) he or she will go into defence, that's obvious.
Throwing facts around without foundation will end into endless discussions like we have seen a few already.
In my humble opinion we all have to be more sceptical especially about things called the spirit-world, the wold of the unseen, the Jins and Ghosts.
have we seen them or is it because we are in a trance and just want to see something ?
Is it a race ? if you don't see the Jin/spirit you are not a part of the family ?? those kind of things
People beware of my words ................... don't play with these things, I cannot warn you all enough !!
* end of lesson *
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People beware of my words ................... don't play with these things, I cannot warn you all enough !! * end of lesson *
Ampuuunnn Kang Eric.... ^:)^ ^:)^
[run]
Salam,
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Warm Greetings to all,
Bram, I want to thank you for taking a civil tone with us (with a little help from the moderator), and I can assure you of reciprocity on our end.
On the matter of animal possession, you have expressed your concerns and objections admirably. I think that on this issue, we can respectfully agree to disagree. Our Aliran will continue to teach and train these things, so if students want to learn about them, they know where to go.
I may be wrong, but I believe the Islamic faith is a critical factor in accepting or rejecting animal spirit possession. I am not bound by this faith, so my views are different.
In America, many people wish to outlaw the owning of guns, because they are indeed dangerous. When untrained or unethical people get hold of them, bad things can happen. But many other people think that trained, ethical, responsible gun ownership is a blessing to society.
These two camps disagree, but they cannot agree to disagree because the debate results in binding legislation for all.
Thankfully, we can disagree about animal spirit possession, and each person will still be free to make their own choice.
Spirit animals are in some ways no different than physical animals.
If you bring a wild wolf into your home, or a cobra, yes it will effectively protect it, but could just as well attack its owner. But we are talking about the difference between finding a wild wolf to bring home, and having a trained guard dog. Very big difference.
If you have an elephant, indeed it can be trained to do circus tricks (as spirit animal possession can be theatrical). But this elephant can also be trained to do necessary tasks, and play a key role in battle.
So in other words, when it comes to animals, training is everything. In Pukulan Cimande Pusaka we do not just invite a wild animal to take control of us. The result would be just thrashing around, with unpredictable behavior. We give the animal spirit specific techniques to express itself through, and as already discussed, we insist on maintaining the dominance of our own awareness.
If you learn how to handle a gun safely, then spend time training yourself to use it, it is very safe, and provides you with many advantages.
If you train an animal to fight for you- be it a dog, a horse, an elephant, a bird of prey- then you benefit from its superior powers. Animals are superior fighters to human beings, that’s just a fact. Who would you rather face in combat, the best martial artist you know, or a wild tiger? I would always be more afraid of the tiger! They have better instinct, more strength, better reaction, more energy, more immunity to pain, and better movement than the best martial arts master.
Our Pendekar is also a master of training animals for hunting and combat (birds of prey and war horses), so he is an especially intuitive and effective guide in these matters.
So in other words, to just play with animal spirit possession would indeed be dangerous child’s play, as would be playing with guns. But to carefully train these things is another matter.
Now what if instead of a guard dog, you could have a “guard tiger”? If I can have access to this, I want it, and I’m not afraid.
So to roll around on the ground is one thing, but to weave this energy into martial techniques is something else. Guru Besar Jerry Jacobs speaks of being “two-headed” during trance, and indeed this is our goal. The training is done inside the circle of power, regulated by other teachers.
The late Pendekar Jafri encouraged our aliran to embrace these things and keep them alive. Thankfully, animal styles of Silat still exist here and there, but there was a time when the ‘powers that be’ wanted them all removed. Pendekar Jafri was a strong advocate of the animal styles, and animal possession for fighting. He was in almost constant argument with IPSI during the 1980’s regarding this.
In case people don’t know, Pendekar Jafri used to be the official representative of IPSI to the United States, such was the strength of his reputation. And he resigned from his post exactly because of this controversy. He refused to compromise the animal portions of Silat, because he thought that ‘humanizing’ Silat would rob it of most of its power, making it into an empty shell.
Pendekar Jafri is an ancestor of our art. He gave us our name, many of our techniques, and my students give him hormat at the end of each lesson. We will continue to honor his position on this matter.
But we will also continue to honor your choice to not train these things.
Best regards,
Russian Silat
P.S. Concerning the other thread, I will model Indonesian elders and express my disagreement by not responding. Everything that can be productive has already been said.
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what other thread do you mean Fyodor ?
can you give me a link
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Yes indeed Eric.
For me the actuality of the 'spirit' is irrelevent. I would perhaps see the use of a spirit as a way of conceptualising a mental state. Some may believe in an actual spirit. It does not matter really, which ever way you look at it, you may be drastically altering your normal conciousness.
Yes, I can see how spirit/psychology could be used as a fighting tool but for me at least it is not an attractive option.
This is why. I think I can perhaps say I've been in a few scrapes in the real world. I have on a number of occasions had no choice but to hurt someone to protect myself or loved ones. I'll use an example...
There was one occasion when I caught a guy sexually assaulting a female friend. I intervened, in fact my first goal was to get him away from the girl, as my thoughts were with her. I initially just pushed him away from her. However, he then tried to attack me so I had no choice but to disable him.
And there he was, on the ground at my feet. Everything in me wanted to stamp him into the ground. But I didn't. He'd hit the ground face first and had split his face from forehead almost to the tip of his nose. He was vaugely concious.
I picked him up, put him in the back of my car and took him to the nearest hospital.
Now, the point to my little real life tale is this. Despite everything, something pulled me back. That was my humanity.
There have been times when my human ferocity has shocked me. I wouldn't call it anger, more a state of detached aggression! I do not feel that I need any more than this!
My question is really, "what pulls you back?", "what if you cannot control your 'state' when you have only a split second to do so?".
If you have removed or subdued your basic humanity even for a brief instant, isn't there the possibility of overstepping the line and perhaps only knowing this too late?
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Hormat to you Gaja aka Martin,
I totally understand what you are describing here, I have had some of those experiences also.
I try to explain things from my point of view, ...... also I try to keep it universal
When someone starts training and learning we call it "Latihan Gerak Lahir" in a way it is the birth of something new, you learn your first steps.
After a while movements are getting familiar and later they become instinctive, when you reach that point we talk about "Latihan Gerak Bathin" you don't have to think about your movement (jurus dll) anymore, you move pure on your what your mind is telling you, nobody is telling you how to move but you react instantly.
Our personal spirit is helping you move and do the right thing,
If one trains for positive things, your humanity will be overruling everything, mind is stronger then matter.
But..... If one is training to be a super-warrior, bragging around, or other negativeness, a situation like you described can be another thing.
It is possible that you permanently hurt or even kill your opponent, that is not why we train a noble art as Pencak Silat is.
If that happens to a person he/she will be thinking about what they have done, they will be totally confused, and even could become totally insane... I've seen some, they died and some of suicide.
So my point in general is: if someone trains things you must also understand what you are training for, don't do things because others do also, ask yourself why you are doing things if you don't understand them.
You have to feel it, you must have samples, you must try it with your fellow students, then you can get somewhere.
Be a man: and dare to question things your instructor/teacher/guru or whatever is asking you to do,
what can you reach by asking questions ............ a lot, you got answers
what can you reach by just doing what your asked to ........... nothing, you got question marks
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@ Martin:
It is not personal against you, but more in a general way that I posted this reaction
I hope this explanation is clear, forgive my lack of English language
Wassalam, Eric
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Hormat Eric,
LOL, I do have a tendency to interpret things via my own experiences and I like to look at the most straighforward explanations rather than overanalyse.
Your explanation is perfectly clear to me :)
I have certainly met at least one pesilat in Jawa driven to madness by occult practice. Perhaps some here may meet him wandering around a town in Jatim, dressed in a military uniform, speaking in tongues and involutarily being 'pulled' into a type of kembangan. Furthermore I have been told of many more similar tales and this includes Europeans too.
OK, I can understand trying to take on the aspect, or qualities of an animal, but I feel this is different to voluntarily inviting something external into oneself.
So, I suppose my other question would be why? Why would one feel the need to attempt to attain 'powers' beyond their own body and spirit?
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.....Now, the point to my little real life tale is this. Despite everything, something pulled me back. That was my humanity.
There have been times when my human ferocity has shocked me. I wouldn't call it anger, more a state of detached aggression! I do not feel that I need any more than this!
My question is really, "what pulls you back?", "what if you cannot control your 'state' when you have only a split second to do so?".
If you have removed or subdued your basic humanity even for a brief instant, isn't there the possibility of overstepping the line and perhaps only knowing this too late?
Very well put, Sir!
and very true as well.
Jihadis like to tell this story: at one time Ali in a swordfight threw his opponent to the ground and just as he was to kill, his enemy spat at him, making him feel anger. As soon as Ali felt anger in his heart he dropped his intent to kill. He feared that he sin if he kill a man in his anger, while he wanted to be a jihadi, who fights only for God.
When treading at the edge of life and death it is best to be aware.
In spirit possession there are usualy agreements between the human and the spirit. Usually in child's play using spirits there is a cue, a signal, a triger ... when we used to play Kolik-Kolikan here we would have a pact: the spirit would leave if someone threw some cemetery soil on to the possessed boy.
Best to be possessed only by your dedication, your life path, your responsibility here on this world. Never be possessed by the hitch-hickers of the spiritual world that need to get somewhere by taking a human body for a ride. Unless, of course, that is how you get your kicks. Truly, sudah banyak yang gila!
My question is still, in the case of a guys eyes getting put out from a distance by a PCP practitioner, who claimed responsibility? The teacher? The guy who did it? Or no one?
Salam hangat,
Ranggalana
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WOW!! Now this is what I'm talking about! Stuff like this is what I'd hoped to be learning from this site. [top]
A lot of what's being said is beyond my personal experience and I feel that on this topic, I should stick to what I know for sure.
That said, I want to relate one of my favorite stories about Pendekar Sanders's that deals with subjects along these lines. Back in the summer of 1996 when I first started training in PCP, Sanders came to Detroit for a weekend seminar. At this time, I had been training in Silat for less than a month and was very skeptical of many of the claims about ilmu I had heard from my teacher at the time, Jeff Davidson. I had immediately recognized the technical superiority of Silat over all the martial arts I had seen, but still wasn't quite sure about the bits and pieces I had heard about fighting magick. Remember that before I found Silat, I had had 10+ years of training in Korean martial arts, had been a high school wrestler and had been exposed to a smattering of Chinese styles as well. I had also just returned from living and studying in Paris, France for 1 year. That particular experience had opened my eyes to the ways of the world.
Anyways, when Sanders was in town, he talked to us about the concept of animal possession. Now mind you, this was the first time I’d heard of something like this and I was skeptical, but he said one thing in particular that caught my attention. He said, "Whether or not you want to believe that you are actually being possessed by the spirit of an animal (monkey, tiger, snake and crane), or if you want to believe that it's a form of auto-hypnosis that causes you to move in a certain manner without fear, it doesn't matter. It works." Basically, believe an animal spirit is in your body or believe that self-hypnosis makes you think an animal spirit is in you. Either one, doesn’t matter cause it works.
At the time, that’s exactly what I needed to hear so that I could come to terms with a concept that was so foreign. I didn’t believe in spirits, had my doubts about the whole concept of Tandga Dallam and really had no concept of Ilmu. But that’s one of the special gifts that William Sanders has, the ability to teach to a western audience ideas and workings that are so foreign to our culture. This is contrasted by Bram’s past approach towards teaching us that’s been overwhelmingly ineffective. I don’t say that as a slam, rather I say because now that he is engaging us in a more friendly manner, he’ll find that we are 10,000x more open to what he has to say. I’ll also add that personal examples like learning about the Keris from his grandmother are fantastic! They paints a vivid picture for us in terms that we (anyone really) can relate to which are much better than wagging a finger at us from afar.
Could this be the beginning of a new leaf? I remain eternally hopeful. [top]
Incidentally, I know believe in Tanaga Dallam, Ilmu and animal possession. I will also say that I can draw Tanaga Dallam into my hands, chest, legs and store it in my Cabang, and possess myself with all 4 animal spirits. What I'm currently working on is possession with mutliple animals at once. To date, I can summon 2 at the time same. Hopefully, one day I will be able to handle 4 at once, and will be able to move onto the Raja Naga.
Warm regards to all,
Michael
P.S. Bram, I'm not sure who the guy is that Fyodor is talking about but I couldn't help but wonder if you had missed to name one other person that could be responsible....the attacker. This is not to say that the Silat player shouldn't still take ownership of what he does, thereby holding himself to the highest level of responsibility, but when someone attacks someone else, they are also responsible for the repercussions. The concept of Karma if you will. Just thinking out loud here. :)
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Greetings to all,
I thank you all for your input, it is refreshing to hear other opinions. I thought this was turning into a PCP discussion club! I’m here not just to clear the air, but to learn from other opinions as well.
Bram, I agree that there has to be control during spirit possession. The animal must enter your body and leave your body in obedience to certain words and physical triggers. One must always be able to employ human judgment to override the impulse of the animal. Without training this, I agree that it can be dangerous.
Concerning the fellow who had his eyes put out…
I would say that the primary responsibility lies with the aggressor. Don’t attack people on the street whom you don’t know!
The full story as I heard it was thus- our student, who was rather poor, was one his way to martial arts class, and his path always took him through a very bad neighborhood. On the way he was thinking of an older gentleman who lived in the neighborhood, and this older person was always in danger of being mugged. Our student was thinking of techniques this old person could use against attackers, groin strikes, knee-cap strikes, eye attacks, and the like.
Two men bent on attacking suddenly came at him from behind while he was thinking of these things. Our student got angry at the thought of being attacked, and when he turned to confront his attackers and defend himself, one of them fell to the ground, began to scream and grab his eyes. His friend tried to help him, giving our student time to run away.
It should be noted that if those guys had come any closer, they probably would have got the eye gouge anyway. This way was safer for our student, because the technique was executed from a distance. Although he was scared it was generally accepted that he was literally saved by a projection of his thought.
Again, if you take the time to train these forces, they serve you and help you. It is like police who train German Shepherds to help them during riots or other situations. The policeman gives the order, then the animal uses its superior powers to take down the bad guy. The animal is a stronger, faster and keener weapon than the policeman could ever be, and its power is in the service of the policeman.
But it takes training to do successfully. Those who are afraid of these concepts, or are disinclined because of religious beliefs should not train them.
I should add that using animal spirits for fighting is a very ancient practice, used all over the world. In fact, almost all warrior societies in ancient history have been societies of animal spirit shamanism, where new warriors were guided to knowing how to use these powers in controlled ways.
In Northern Europe, warriors called the spirit of the bear and wolf. To enter such societies, one sometimes had to physically hunt and kill a wolf or bear, then perform a special ceremony of respect to its soul. When this was accomplished, one used the skin of the animal to make a piece of clothing, and wearing this clothing helped to enter into possession. “Berserk”, from the Vikings known as ‘Berserkers’ actually means “bear-shirt”.
Africans and American Indians also used spirit possession to make them stronger and to provide immunity from pain and injury. This is a world-wide phenomenon.
To be able to use the powers of an animal spirit and see through its senses used to be considered an essential survival skill for hunting, navigating one’s way through the wilderness, knowing which plants were useful for food and medicine (animals know this naturally), predicting the weather, and protecting one’s self from dangerous predators or human enemies.
This type of knowledge is the heritage of the entire human race. We have a natural birthright to it. If someone chooses to limit themselves or be afraid, it is entirely up to you if you wish to accept their limitations as your own.
Best regards,
Russian Silat
P.S. Eric, I was referring to remaining silent about the Q&A thread. There seems to be a kind of double standard between our style and the dethuars; it is allowed to rip on us for months at a time on multiple threads, but when these folks are brought up they are protected like sacred cows.
Just an observation, I may be wrong.
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Hi to all,
I would like to share a few stories regarding the use of Spirits or Ilmu.
Let me start off by saying I'm not judging one system is superior than others. I'll leave that to each individual. I don't pursue this particular branch of Silat just out of my personal and religious belief. But thats just me.
My family used to own a small land in Kebon Baru Jakarta. There was a family who lived there kinda like a caretaker. One of the kids had learned Silat and Ilmu from a teacher. Part way thru his quest for Ilmu his teacher passed away. He became mentally ill. The family went to different people (other silat teachers, kiai, dukun) to try to help him, but last I saw him 12yrs ago his condition was still the same. He grew his hair long, had a blank stare. Sometimes he would go out in the middle of the night to climb a tree and stay there. One time we went to look at the place we say a hole about 2 meters deep 2 m long x2 m deep in the yard. We asked the mother, she said her son had dug it up with a screw driver. The mother asked why he did that, he said because he needed to hide since the enemy were coming. It was just sad. Some people said that he was not compatible with the Ilmu he was pursuing , some said that the teacher had not completed the ilmu transmission before his passing. Some people tried to pull the ilmu out of him, but they said it must be done by the person who transmitted otherwise it will be fatal.
My point is, if you're interested in these kinda of things make sure you are surounded by people who can help you in case things go South.
I know one or two person who learned Ilmu Silat Strum or Silat Hadiran. They said it was useful for them in self defense situation. When they are in a difficult situation the spirit takes over.
I've also have heard instances where it is uncontrolled. My brother in law was playing in a soccer match in Jakarta. The game was pretty close and it got a bit emotional. All of a sudden one of the players in the other team started to get really mad and attacked people. 4-5 people had to hold them down. My brother came up to the person looked at his eyes (they were red)..recited some prayers and yelled at the person. The person fainted just like that. Later people found out that the player had a guardian who was his deceased great grandfather.
So just thought of sharing that with the forum.
Regards,
Faiz
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Thank you for sharing Faiz!
Those of us in the west have no where near the 1st hand experience level that you guys do. As such, we love learning about this stuff from you guys.
Question for you: Do you know what it was that made his eyes turn red? Do you know what your brother yelled at him or what prayers he said? Where did you brother get this knowledge? :)
Thanks again!
Michael
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This is contrasted by Bram’s past approach towards teaching us that’s been overwhelmingly ineffective. I don’t say that as a slam, rather I say because now that he is engaging us in a more friendly manner, he’ll find that we are 10,000x more open to what he has to say
LOL, maafkan aku Bram...but here goes....the thing is with Bram......he can come across as hot headed, opinionated and bloody minded but don't forget he is also a wellspring of knowledge! Ask and he will usualy respond with much information.
"Whether or not you want to believe that you are actually being possessed by the spirit of an animal (monkey, tiger, snake and crane), or if you want to believe that it's a form of auto-hypnosis that causes you to move in a certain manner without fear, it doesn't matter. It works."
Now here's a question, do you think some people have a natural ability to attain a 'transformative fighting state(for want of a better term)'? Or do you think this has to be a learnt response?
I ask this for a reason. I have been able to enter a different state since childhood. This only occurs at times of danger. I have experienced the same detachment in car accidents too. Slow motion and heightened awareness. I always passed it off as the effects of an adrenaline response but that does not explain the unnerving sense of calmness and clarity. ???
I rarely talk this frankly, but anyone else experienced this?
I should add that using animal spirits for fighting is a very ancient practice, used all over the world. In fact, almost all warrior societies in ancient history have been societies of animal spirit shamanism, where new warriors were guided to knowing how to use these powers in controlled ways.
Indeed Fyodor, I think we would be hard pressed to find a culture that has not had this element at some point in it's history!
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Martin my friend! I'm not sure I'm able to answer your question with any certainty, so I'll go out on a limb here and give you my best (un)educated guess. ;D
My thought is that it can be learned and that there are some people who possess a natural talent. I'm thinking along the lines of genetic pre-disposition as it relates to how some people are born natural athletes, how others can't ever seem to hit the ball, but how most of lie somewhere in the middle.
Maybe you could say that psychics (the real ones..) are the natural athletes of the Ilmu world (i.e. the David Beckhams if you will ;D). The ones that come across real knowledge (maybe they are born into a culture that possess it like Indonesia) are the great Ilmu people that we know and love. For the rest of us, a varying degree of proficiency can be obtained depending upon our natural abilities and upon how much effort we put into it.
Those are my thoughts as they are today....right now... at this moment... subject to change. :w
What does everyone else think? Bram, I'd love to hear you insight on this one.
Great question Gajah!
Michael
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But much more importantly, what does everyone think of my new profile image? I just figured out how to change my screename and add a photo. 8)
And in case you're wondering, Lee is my middle name. It's not some reference to Bruce Lee like all my fraternity brothers used to think at Arizona State. ;D
Also, in case the images is to small to see, it's of 3 tigers taking a bath together. I'm not exactly sure what statement I'm trying to make by displaying this particular image, but those tigers are adorable!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhGKcwpM3Xw
Michael
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Thank you for sharing Faiz!
Question for you: Do you know what it was that made his eyes turn red? Do you know what your brother yelled at him or what prayers he said? Where did you brother get this knowledge? :)
Thanks again!
Michael
Hi Michael,
You're welcome. I was hoping that from the stories I told and also from others in the forum that people who are interested in these ilmu or spirit will be more informed.
The eyes of the person turned red because of lack of sleep :) Just kidding, they turned red because the spirit entered him when he got emotional and was about to get into a fight. At that instant I believe the spirit took over. He became really strong , like I said, 4-5 people had to hold him down. Usually these type of ilmu where it involves calling spirits or Jins, the spirit or Jins are either invited in by the practioner or enter by themselves when the person is in an emergency situation, in an imbalance emotional state, or void mental state.
My brother in law was also my senior in the Silat school we studied.
I don't remember exactly what he recited, he told me it was a verse from our Holy Scripture.
Regards,
Faiz
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.... Bram, I'd love to hear you insight on this one.
Michael
Ngelmu iku kelakone kanthi laku
Lekase lawan kas
Tegese kas nyantosani...
Ilmu only manifests through discipline
and is complete when it brings health and prosperity.
The song above is written in the Pucung form, meaning it is a child's song, for young ones to memorize. There are some 'ilmu' that you can buy, like you can go to a kiai and get a charged sash (in Indonesia it is rather taboo to show-off those sashes, BTW) but the person who charges it must go through and maintain some sort of discipline.
So the essence of 'ilmu' is a discipline. The proof is in health and prosperity.
Because you are in the spiritual world here, once you begin to tread, you must develop your personal sense of black and white, otherwise you walk in the grey area and have no confidence. So you must here have the ability to see good and evil .... before you step over to a more Neitzchean existence.
To see this you need a life path, a dedication. Without a dedication ilmu is never completed, according to the Pucung above. This is why most 'ilmu' sources require an 'oath' - like the Patalekan Cimande. In the school I am in we have our 'Prasetya'.
Because 'ilmu' is discipline, every silat has it, at least, contained in the movement. In fact, every discipline will open doors to ilmu, if you know how to have the correct attitude in doing the discipline.
The repetition of a movement done with the correct attitude will uncover the 'ilmu' inside the movement. Kang Eric explained it in the concept of "Gerak Lahir" and "Gerak Batin".... and according to 'kawruh beksan Mataram', the correct attitude is:
1.GREGET: move with feeling.
2. SAWIJI: move with a single intention.
3. SENGGUH: move with responsibility (like if you put yourself in an awkward position, get out of it without getting out of the GREGET, SAWIJI of your movement)
4. NORA MINGKUH: move without fear, don't give up, and keep your chest open.
The continuous practise of movement with this mental attitude will bring about the ultimate in body movement according to the Mataram Mpu, which is attaining GREGEL.
Gregel, is movement like a baby, simple, natural, powerful, effortless.... you attain a pure and clean GERAK NURANI that is perfect in form and timing because you surrender your all to the Creator of the Universe who is Most Perfect. The purer your Gerak Nurani is the closer you get to attaining the Kejawen goal, of ‘Jumbuhing Kawula Gusti’ or the Union of the Slave and the Lord.
The problem with 'hadiran'... is that it stays in the GREGET stage and doesn't go higher and become GREGEL ... nor can it become GERAK NURANI. Also, like a song I quoted earlier says:
Kapentok ing pancabaya
Ubayane mbalenjani
Ambushed from five directions
It's promises will prove untrue.
The same goes for jimat, pusaka and such powerfull objects. In Kejawen it is advised not to rely on these things. If you practise proper Kejawen at some point you should attain:
Sugih tanpa bandha
Digdaya tanpa aji
Nglurug tanpa bala
Menang tanpa ngasorake
Wealthy without riches
Powerful without ilmu
Attack alone
Victorious without humiliating
So, yes, in Kejawen there is knowledge of spirit possession, but this knowledge is considered child's play, and the path is not considered to lead to wisdom. It doesn't lead to 'jumbuhing kawula Gusti' ... rather it leads to adigang adigung adiguna ... feelings of greatness, of strength, and of cleverness ... but they are just that, feelings. Real greatness, real strength, and real cleverness is humble and gentle and always ready to learn.
Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.
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Greetings to all,
Mas Agung the Cimande trance master, trains these things, and Pendekar Sanders has trained with him in Indonesia. He was open-minded enough to allow Sanders to tape some of the training sessions, and much of what we speak of here can be seen at the end of his ta naga dallam tape.
One sure way to tell that the person is NOT in control is that the eyes change, and become red. There is a man on the tape, and the spirit possession is visible in his eyes.
Mas Agung uses not only animal spirits, but also the natural emotions of the person, such as fear and anger, to create fighting trances. During these states everything becomes vivid, and time seems to slow down.
It is interesting to hear talk of being possessed by ancestors also. This is especially prevalent in African fighting. One channels the spirit of the strongest warrior ancestor, and he fights through you.
I do think that some families are genetically pre-disposed to have these abilities, whether it be from animal spirits, anger, or ancestral possession. Additionally, I believe that if you have these latent abilities, NOT TRAINING THEM IS MORE DANGEROUS THAN TRAINING THEM!
People in my family go into possession when they fight. I have an uncle who I’ve seen lift and throw someone by the throat. He only has to look an opponent in the eye to make him back down. My grandfather got into trouble in his youth because he beat four policemen rather badly. Whenever people in my family sense an enemy, an injustice, or if people act confrontational with them, they go into a combative state. They are also impatient, and easily aggravated. Rather than deal with people’s indecisiveness and stubbornness, they’d rather just do things themselves.
This can be dangerous if it isn’t trained. People in my family have committed murder while in this state, only to regret it afterwards. Before I trained PCP, I was afraid of all types of confrontation, because of the power unleashed.
The first time I experienced possession I was a child. A larger boy hit me in the head, and I didn’t even feel it. With no prior training, I proceeded to work him over quite thoroughly. Then when I was sixteen I had an old car, and someone vandalized it. When I found my car, two people were inside it, looking for something to steal. I went into possession immediately, ran towards my car, and pulled both of them out by the neck, and started to beat them badly. They were older boys who I would have been afraid of in other circumstances, but at this time I felt no fear, and they had to run away from me to avoid further damage.
Time slowed down, and I felt crystal clear about what I was doing- everything was instinctual. It was actually quite euphoric.
I prefer to train this power, because it will exist in me regardless. Not training it is like owning a gun without knowing how to use it- foolish.
Those who have trained with me and seen me move know that I have something which cannot be taught, only cultivated. When the inner warrior wakes up, you need to be in charge of him, otherwise bad stuff will happen.
I thank the other board members for sharing their knowledge and experience. This is the type of dialogue I had hoped for here.
Best Regards,
Russian Silat
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Becoming a dragon that is unbeatable, it’s a nice thought but when someone smacks you one you will soon be brought back to planet earth and reconsider the concept.
Knocking knives out of peoples hands from a distance.
Putting peoples eyes out from a distance.
Spirits that follow you and brake peoples neck.
Indonesian men with green glowing eyes.
Using Magic to fight people and casting spells.
Animal possession or even physically turning into animals, I recall a story of one of the PCP members turning into a panther or tiger in a forest and another of a bat flying out of one of your guys mouths.
I choose not to believe,when you get a group of people with similar temperament together they will convince each other these things have taken place.
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Dear D,
I don't ask you to believe. I know what I've experienced, and even people on this board who generally disagree with us will admit that these things exist.
You can ask my student who was healed by Pendekar Sanders' te naga dallam if he believes or not.
Maybe I can get Pendekar Sanders to post the video footage of the knife being knocked out of someone's hand from across the room.
If you are skeptical, well, that's healthy. Seek it out and see for yourself. The world is much more than the usual person imagines.
Who's the name of the guy in Indonesia who can use his energy to cause combustion? I forgot.
You choose to not be open to these things. Your choice. May it serve you well.
Regards,
Russian Silat
P.S. By the way, I've been smacked and head-butted good. It only makes the dragon mad...
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Russian Silat, the man you speak of goes by John Chang, but he was originally known as Dynamo Jack, or "DJ," from the Blair Brothers BBC Ring of Fire documentary titled East of Karakota.
There are 2 books written about him that I know of, and they are both written by one of his students who is a Greek man named Kosta Danaos. They are available on Amazon and are called:
The Magus of Java
&
Nei Kung
Here is the original clip of him from Ring of Fire that was filmed by the BBC in 1987:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77nD5xmL0kU
Here is a follow-up clip filmed just a few years ago by Lawrence Blair:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aos0hnwiHt8&feature=related
According to the books (I have them both), John Chang was born and raised in Indonesia and he is of Chinese extration. He lives in Jakarta's Chinese district and the skills that he has are the result of training in a highly secret Chinese art called Nei Kung, or Mo-Pai. Because this is a Chinese system and not Silat, I'll hold this post here. But if anyone would like more information, please send me an email and I'll be happy to share what I know!
Best,
Michael
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Russian Silat,
I did not say I dont believe there are people who posses Siddhis, I dont believe that PCP has or was passed the ilmu.
Showing a video of a member of the mo pai dose not prove that pcp can do such things, they are in no way linked with the mo pai.
I know your teacher tried to track him down when he was in Indonesia to seek instruction.
Such teachings exist but dont have much to do with anything you mentioned in your schools philosophical concepts.
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D! What's with the tude? I don't recall Russian Silat or myself every saying that we were in any way connected to Mo-Pai. I was simply passing along some info. for the forum members. And the Mo-pai vid came from me, not Russian Silat.
If you don't like/believe us... nienta problema! Just be sure as to what you're not believing!
Regards,
Michael
P.S. The story about the bat coming from someone's mouth was something that Sanders saw an Indonesian do while he was in Indonesia. Maybe it was some sort of performance, but nonetheless, he saw it!
P.S.S. I never heard Sanders say that he tried to track down John Chang. Not saying he didn't, just saying it's new info. to me!
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I think there are two distinct things that we are discussing as one here, namely TENAGA DALAM (correct spelling) and ILMU GAIB - ilmu of the unseen world. The two do cross over but are not the same. Tenaga Dalam is scientific and has been studied by scientist, especially the tenaga dalam of Merpati Putih, which is a Mataram silat. Ilmu Gaib, is different, and in traditional silat, is usually assosciated with DEBUS.
Debus is theatre of invincibility and bats flying out of practitioners mouths. Gorks has a few films of debus up on youtube. Debus is just as real as tenaga dalam, but it hasn't been scientifically scrutinized yet. Historically, Debus was brought by the Wali to spread Islam and the oldest debus equipment you find in the Kasepuhan museum in Cirebon. I know this because I translated an Islamic Art exhibition catalogue couple of years ago.
Tiger spirits are also popular in Jawa and Sumatera, and according to local tradition we have one here in our house. Great Grandfather's right-hand man when they opened this village killed the tiger with his bare hands and kept the spirit as a pet that guards the compound to this day.
There is ilmu that allows you to control tigers live or spiritual. Back in the late 1970's the head of the Police wanted to keep some tiger cubs as a pet. A silat teacher I know was pressed for dosh at that time and agreed to obtain the cubs. The tigers in the zoo in Yogyakarta at the time had just had cubs, so the silat master entered the zoo in the night, entered the tiger's cage by bending the bars, took the cubs, put the bars back, and sold the cubs in Jakarta.
There is also ilmu that allows the practitioner to become a tiger, and have the tiger spirit work through him. Maybe, as Russian Silat says, in the prehistoric past this method was considered to be novel and powerful. In Jawa that is no longer true, turning into a tiger or an other big animal is considered the 'easy' part of transformative magick. The higher levels of this ilmu allows you to turn into a speedy firefly.
In many areas this is considered to be black magick, and practitioners are often involved in wars of balls of fire when they clash using tenaga dalam. I once had a guru who was a Bali dalang (Pak Sija of Bone, Gianyar) and when he performed in the cemetery he would explicitly challenge all the black magis practitioners in the area to battle him spiritually, to the death. In Indonesia, if people know you practise this type of ilmu, it is considered fair to try and snatch your life force using ilmu too. In ilmu battles, the losers always die or go mad.
From what the PCP guys say, it would seem that to be able to be in trance with the spirit of the Most Powerful, the PCP members need to only take their ilmu one more step. When one of them experiences this, they will no longer think that animal spirit possession is great, fun, effective, and necessary.
Train further and selamat to all,
Ranggalana.
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Hmmmm, despite a number of personal experiences I still remain skeptical and choose to interpret many of these things through my Western mindset.
I still interpret spirit possession as an internal psychological transformation rather than an outside entity. I see the animal as a tool for conceptualisation. It is a very easy way to imbue a psychological transformation. Let's say a tiger, it's a powerful 'pre-packaged' idea, power and ferocity that is easily absorbed when compared to the alternative, a whole string of superhuman concepts. The animal 'spirit' is a neat ready made psychological package. But hey we're all free to frame it any way we please :)
As for slowing down time, heightened perceptions etc. It's the effect of adrenaline and possibly endorphins. When your reactions are speeded up, time appears to slow down. Your senses become sharpened. We all have this inate ability but some have the ability to harness an neurochemical response, others just have a neurotransmitter overload.
I personally would like to believe there is something more, and have perhaps on occasions felt this to be the case, but my rationalism will not let me.....yet ;)
However, I have seen quite a few things that defy 'logic' too, and of course logic is culturally defined too.
Please note, it is not my intention to be critical of others beliefs, just to provide an alternate perspective.........and I might be a little bit of a >:D's advocate too!
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I recieved a PM from a knowledgeable brother, reminding me that I made a small mistake in explaining the Jawanese take on possession. When the spirit possessing is a jinn, an animal, or a butakala, the term is NOT kerawuhan. Kerawuhan is for, like in Bali, when people are possessed by their local gods or respected ancestor spirits.
When you are possessed by a spirit lesser than a god, it is not called kerawuhan (rawuh is High Jawanese) but is call kesambet dhemit, or ketemplekan dhemit.
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Michael Lee,
If I dont believe that Sanders can knock someone out without toughing them, that people carry spirits with them that can brake peoples neck, that members of pcp can knock blades out of peoples hands or put their eyes out with mystical powers dose that mean I have an attitude?
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Greetings to all,
I want to again thank Bram for being so forthcoming with information. Now I understand why he has a reputation as a valuable contributor to this board.
He writes:
"From what the PCP guys say, it would seem that to be able to be in trance with the spirit of the Most Powerful, the PCP members need to only take their ilmu one more step. When one of them experiences this, they will no longer think that animal spirit possession is great, fun, effective, and necessary. "
I for one am totally open to learning this type of Ilmu.
D, you wrote:
"If I dont believe that Sanders can knock someone out without toughing them, that people carry spirits with them that can brake peoples neck, that members of pcp can knock blades out of peoples hands or put their eyes out with mystical powers dose that mean I have an attitude?"
No, this doesn't mean you have an attitude. But when you attack the credibility of the lineage of our master because of your pre-convieced ideas, ignoring the direct experience of many people, this does smack of attitude, especially considering that you have never met us. If you get your opinions from the internet, well...
I woul like to offer someone else's opinion regarding all of this:
"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves" ~ Carl Jung
"When we look at a rock what we are seeing is not the rock, but the effect of the rock upon us" ~ Bertrand Russell
"It is impossible for anyone to learn that which he thinks he already knows" ~ Plutarch
"A fool sees an enemy. A wise man sees a lesson to be learned"
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge"
"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world" ~ Schopenhauer
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science" ~ Einstein
"The highest mountain of all to overcome is one's own preconceptions" - du Gabriel
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" ~ Philip K. Dick
"The greatest homage to truth is to use it" ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident" ~ Schopenhauer
"Whatever you think you are, that's not what you are" ~ Ajahn Sumedho
Best regards,
Russian Silat
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Just because a group or community of individuals with similar temperaments say something is so it dose not automatically neutralize my scepticism.
Please view the following link, it shows how a group of individuals within an organization /school can be effected by something which may not work on the general public. Why don’t Sanders go into a boxing ring with a boxer and try to knock him out from a distance before he gets knocked out? One thing you will notice is that people who practice such things will be reluctant to try then on someone who dose not belong to their group.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kb-ycDKoh6Q
Watch someone who was hypnotized to believe he was a chicken. He walks around the stage clucking and pecking corn, would you say the spirit of a chicken went into him? It is also possible to hypnotize yourself but its all in the mind and dose not mean you possess the spirit of a tiger or a chicken.
How can someone take the spirit of a dragon when we all know there is no such thing as a dragon, where are you getting the dragon spirit from?
Regards
Darren
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No one here is trying to convince you or sell you anything Darren.
Believe whatever you wish.
But when you make it your role to go around challenging people to 'put up or shut up', this is not 'philosophical musings on our arts' it is called 'stirring up sh**'.
Go do that somewhere else.
-Russian Silat
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Michael Lee,
If I dont believe that Sanders can knock someone out without toughing them, that people carry spirits with them that can brake peoples neck, that members of pcp can knock blades out of peoples hands or put their eyes out with mystical powers dose that mean I have an attitude?
Not in the least bit Mr. Darren! My point was that neither Russian nor myself had said that we were affiliated with Mo-Pai. In my post I was simply informing R. Silat what I knew about the guy who started the fire with his hands. As I have Russian's private email, I could have informed him off forum, but I thought that some of the members might be interested in hearing about John Chang as it relates to martial arts and is interesting as all hell!
Anywho, I agree with Russian that we should try to keep this discussion civil and avoid stirring up manure. Best of luck in whatever you're looking for and I wish you well.
Michael
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No, this doesn't mean you have an attitude. But when you attack the credibility of the lineage of our master because of your pre-convieced ideas, ignoring the direct experience of many people, this does smack of attitude, especially considering that you have never met us. If you get your opinions from the internet, well...
I don't think 'D' is attacking anyones credibility, rather he simply does not believe these claims. Not believing isn't part of some clandestine anti pcp conspiracy. It is simply not believing. As I said earlier, I gave up overanalysing, it can make one a little paranoid y'know :-\
Do I discredit the Irish by not believing in leprechauns? :P
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Everybody becomes what he thinks.
What I have read in this thread are neither magical tricks nor siddhic (occult) powers, which can come to everybody with the appropriate discipline and silat exercises. But there are another power to protect, heal and save people and materialize objects originate in God and can be used only by a real Guru. They are in no way designed, disciplined or developed, but flow from cosmic power.
There is no need for this Guru to command invisible spirits since his own divine will materializes the objects. He is everything, everywhere, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent; and so whatever He will, instantly happens. Like the qualities of truth, love and peace, these are things that generate the atmic (godly) or cosmic forces behind the universe.
There are two ways in which a Guru can help people: an instant solution as against a long term one.
Any instant solution would go against the fundamental quality of nature itself as well against the karmic law of cause and effect. Most people live in the material world of their desires and egos, which is governed by this law. They reap the fruits of their actions. This brings about their evolution or devolution. If the Guru intervenes to instantly solve their problems, it would stop all action, development, even evolution. This solution can be ruled out because it totally negates the natural laws.
The other and more effective alternative presents a long-term solution whereby the Guru leads the people themselves to a higher level of consciousness to enable them to understand the truth of spiritual laws so that they may turn towards righteousness and steadfastly work for better conditions. This will relate them back to nature and the karmic law of causation. This would then transcend the cycle of cause and effect in which today they are involved as victims and thereby command and control the natural forces.
Where is this Guru?
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I wish this Guru would start posting at SahabatSilat
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But he does post here under several names.
His real name, is Guru Sejati.
He teaches free to everyone.
If demons listen to his teachings,
they are transformed into humans
If humans listen to his teachings,
they are transformed into gods
He teaches the secret of all ilmu
The ilmu of all secrets:
The ilmu is called:
Sastra jendra hyu ning rad pangruwating diyu.
the lelaku:
sepi pamrih rame gawe memayu hayuning buwana
(kesel ning ora kena leren)
Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.
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A greeting of peace to all,
I’d like to share a little more about the Ilmu of Untung Surapati, through the lineage of Pendekar Sartono. I’m a novice in this Ilmu, so any mistakes in this text are mine alone.
The basic theme of this Ilmu concerns the symbiotic relationship between the seen and the unseen. The foundation of this knowledge is the assumption that analogues exist between the physical and spiritual worlds. These analogues have a symbiotic relationship, such that the actions of one have an effect on the other.
Actions in the world influence the shape of the spiritual world, and energies in the spiritual world influence the world we experience with our five senses. It is like a feedback system, in which the spiritual sphere is the dominant partner.
There are relationships of power between these worlds. The Surapati Ilmu gives a model for understanding how energies flow back and forth, and exert their influence.
When I understand the dynamic of these relationships, I can begin to have a more productive interaction with the spiritual world, and have a larger voice in how is affects me.
Surapati himself had children who existed in both worlds simultaneously, so they understood these dynamics and imparted this knowledge to their father. Their mother had a jinn attached to her, and when she married Surapati the ceremony included establishing a relationship with her jinn also. The children, therefore, were half human and half jinn. They saw things clearly, and shared what they saw.
I know that some people are skeptical of such things- so be it. Skepticism is healthy, but if it rules your life, your world is small indeed. All angels, prophets, miracles and mysteries cease to exist for you. Doubt and skepticism is a sword which cuts in all directions with no prejudice.
There are two prominent applications of this Ilmu which I currently study. The first application involves inviting the presence of entities from the unseen world to inform, empower and teach you. These are the forces of nature, the elements, and ancestors.
All human beings have a spiritual essence which can exist independently of the body. When a person dies, all of their knowledge and potential continue to exist with their spiritual essence. Our Ilmu teaches that we should respect these ancestors, and invite them to teach us. They can do this through our intuition, by bringing us the teachers we need, and by physically entering our body to show us how to move.
All things in nature have a spiritual essence as well. The spiritual essence of a natural thing is the source of its power. This power can influence me too, if I open myself to it. This is an important way to learn the movements of Pukulan Cimande Pusaka. Our art has very beautiful, powerful movements, and this is accomplished by allowing the forces of nature to guide us.
But the energies of nature will only manifest themselves to you if you become a proper vessel for them to inhabit. Your physical habits and training attract sympathetic spiritual forces which will express their power through you.
Humans are often like antennas, or radios. The frequency to which we are tuned determines the signal we pick up. Pak Don Basuki recently pointed this out to me when he wrote “like attracts like”. If I indulge in foul language, intoxication, or other negative things, I make myself a channel for negative energy. This will of course spill out into my life in a negative way.
Humans are a microcosm of the Cosmos. The latest scientific theories now refute the big bang theory- they say now that the Cosmos has always existed, and that it is continually generated from the energy of black holes. At the center of every galaxy there is a black hole, and out of this issues forth matter, anti-matter, and energy. It is a portal from the unseen realm.
Humans are also portals of the unseen. Our power lies in the fact that we can choose what we wish to manifest. How? By simply choosing how we develop our talents, what our habits are and what we give our awareness too.
This is the principle of repetitive prayer. By constantly orienting ourselves to God, we allow God’s energy to rule our lives. God gives us this choice to either turn towards his powers, or turn away from them. This is why we are “higher than the Angels”. All divine powers in the universe are open to us.
But God is in everything. All pure, positive energy is divine. This is why we say “To relax the mind is to see with the spirit. All which comes to do no harm is embraced, but all which comes to do harm is destroyed, in order to preserve”.
So by learning the physical movements of animal styles, we set the stage for them and the elements to come and teach us directly.
Every person must find out their destiny, find out what things God has pre-disposed them towards. We all have a natural talent for a range of things unique to us. When we seek these things out, we are not really “expressing ourselves”, we are expressing God. Our purpose, and the purpose of all which exists, is to express an aspect of God’s will.
Allah asked Himself “why do I exist?” and His answer to Himself was creation. A friend of mine from Uzbekistan taught me that.
The circle of creation allows us to create alignments on earth which will resonate in the spiritual realm, then flow back to the earth. This process already happens all the time, the circle simply allows us to do it with intention.
The circle allows us to orient ourselves towards certain energies (natural energies, ancestral energies) so that these can teach and empower us.
To my mind, this is the essence of the Untung Surapati Ilmu.
I agree with a previous poster that Ilmu is just theater unless it works on “the unconvinced”. If it only works on your close friends and students, it is just a form of stage hypnosis.
The problem with performing Ilmu on the general public is that the results are unpredictable. A person off the street attended a PCP seminar in England, and wanted to see “proof” that the Ilmu wasn’t just some kind of trick. He ended up unconscious on the floor, and when he came to he was quite disturbed.
I attended a seminar in Detroit where we had a first-timer, a grappler MMA guy who also “was from Missouri” (in other words, he demanded proof). I knew this guy, he has a reputation for being one of the toughest guys in the Detroit MA scene. He ended up on the floor too, and had a bad headache for the rest of the day.
I am fascinated by these things, and glad for the opportunity to study and train them.
Peace,
Russian Silat
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A greeting of peace to all,
Pendekar Sanders has given me some feedback on what I’ve written, and asked me to expound on and clarify a few things. I thank him for this guidance.
In my previous post, I spoke of humans as being like antennas- we receive energy from that which we orient ourselves towards.
My teacher emphasizes that God has placed His knowledge in all of these sources as a special gift from Himself to humans, and our ability to access this knowledge is part of that gift.
God Himself is unknowable, so He chooses to make Himself and His powers known in various ways. He says, “God is un-named and unknowable until you die”. Before the time of our death, we cannot know God directly, and must know Him only through His expressions in our dimension.
Even the Prophet (Peace be Upon Him) had contact with the Angel of God, not God Himself.
The purpose of the world we inhabit is to lead us to this knowledge of God. If we live the right way, our life experience sets the stage for direct knowledge of God when we leave this world.
God put a spiritual force in all things. Each thing can teach us about that special dimension of God to be found there. It is our task as humans to seek out these lessons, because the end result will be true knowledge of ourselves and of God.
So in other words, life is a classroom designed by God. All things are here to teach us, if we open ourselves to their spiritual essence. God allows these things to transmit their knowledge to us, which is why humans are so special. Each stage of learning unfolds to a new, more profound stage, and the only way to follow this process is to start the journey of your own free will.
When we obtain knowledge of the tiger, the birds, the trees, we are in tune with God’s forces, and understand that this world is His holy creation, and that we should give thanks. We give thanks because the Creator has placed stepping stones in His creation, stepping stones which lead us to perfect knowledge of Him. These paths are especially designed for human beings, to bring us spiritual fulfillment through the full knowledge of God.
So if we want to learn anything, we seek out the lesson placed in creation by God. If we want to jump like a tiger, we seek out the tiger spirit for instruction. Nothing learns “from themselves”, we all look to the world in which we live. This is the way all things learn, this is the system of development the Creator has put in place for everyone. All of these powers are under the jurisdiction of God, there is nothing else, and it is He alone who makes it possible to learn from them.
When we relax the mind, we see with the spirit. Then we can embrace all the knowledge available in our environment, and this will lead us on our path of development. We can find and follow the thread of knowledge, which is the twelfth principle. To relax the mind, one must balance the elements, and be free from the internal prisons of misconception.
Peace,
Russian Silat
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Greetings to all,
So in other words, how do we rely upon God for his help, wisdom and aid? We learn from the teachers he sends us.
No one can absorb knowledge directly from God, this is simply not the way He organizes things. A hatchling eagle must learn from its mother the lessons of life, the tiger from its mother too, otherwise they will soon die.
We all must educate ourselves somehow. We cannot simply ask God to do everything for us, not go to school, not study with a Guru, not learn the collective knowledge of humankind.
God made this system, it is not for us to question His wisdom, only to seek it out, not to modify his ways, only use them to find ourselves.
God fills the world with knowledge and teachers so that we can help ourselves, as He wants us to. Only after we have sought out His knowledge in the world (even as far as China…) can we say “please just download the information into me”. We must first do our best with what God has given us, in order to honor His system, His gifts.
Only when I have done my best, explored the Cosmos to my own limits, do I have the right to enter the higher classrooms. Until then, we must be open to what is placed here to teach us, be it intuition, insight, accumulated knowledge- or even a tiger spirit!
Regards,
Russian Silat
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I agree with a previous poster that Ilmu is just theater unless it works on “the unconvinced”. If it only works on your close friends and students, it is just a form of stage hypnosis.
The problem with performing Ilmu on the general public is that the results are unpredictable. A person off the street attended a PCP seminar in England, and wanted to see “proof” that the Ilmu wasn’t just some kind of trick. He ended up unconscious on the floor, and when he came to he was quite disturbed.
I attended a seminar in Detroit where we had a first-timer, a grappler MMA guy who also “was from Missouri” (in other words, he demanded proof). I knew this guy, he has a reputation for being one of the toughest guys in the Detroit MA scene. He ended up on the floor too, and had a bad headache for the rest of the day.
I have seen that many of these distance attacks only work on students who firstly believe in such things, secondly have faith in their teacher that he can do such things, thirdly have trained with him for some time and lastly have a weak mind.
I'm not saying such things do not exist, I'm just saying in most cases 99.9% there is hypnosis/ suggestion involved.
You say that a tough MAA was taken out with ilmu techniques by one of the PCP guys, what technique was used on him. If you are referring to poison finger/ marma strikes then that is a purely physical thing and not really ilmu.
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Greetings D,
Let me say again that the people in both England and Detroit were NOT PCP students, it was their first time training with us, and they were complete skeptics. These were both martial artists in very good physical condition, both doubters, and both ready to show us that the stuff couldn’t work on them.
My Russian students were also very skeptical at first too, and were ultimately convinced only by results.
It may be the case that 99.9% of what’s out there is bogus. Our stuff is part of the .1% which is real.
Poison finger strikes actually involve touching the opponent- what we do requires no physical contact, and can even be done at a distance. The two individuals of whom I spoke, neither were physically touched to produce the result. At higher levels, it can be done to a person who isn’t present, simply by having a very strong and vivid picture of them in your mind’s eye.
All silat styles realize that there are ways to increase the amount of energy (tenaga dalam, thanks Bram for the spelling) in the body. The movements, breathing and intention build up the energy, and release it into the opponent in certain ways. The nuance of Pukulan Cimande Pusaka’s movements are designed to generate this energy. This is why our whole body has to look like a big relaxed whip with writhing, internal movements.
When we have an abundance of this energy, we can use it to interrupt the polarity of the opponent’s energy flow. If you can imagine an electrical circuit, it must flow in a certain way to be effective, have a certain polarity. A trained energy fighter can use his stronger energy to go counter to the flow of his opponent’s energy, causing him to temporarily “short out”. You temporarily cause the polarity of the energy flow to their brain to reverse itself, resulting in a loss of strength or a complete loss of consciousness.
If you have two batteries, and one is stronger than the other, if you hook them up to each other, the stronger will draw energy from the weaker. When you increase your tenaga dalam, and apply it to a vulnerable region of your opponent, you simply drain his energy like a battery and reverse his polarity.
Pendekar Sanders has reported using this technique even to calm jittery horses down. I’m sure the horses weren’t “convinced” beforehand, or under any kind of hypnosis… but with Pendekar Sanders you never know.
If you run your energy in a sympathetic way, you dramatically increase the energy flow in another person, which heals and invigorates them. I already spoke of my student who had a chronic injury healed by this power. It also helps a true master to guide others to animal possession- when they invite any kind of energy into their own body, they can introduce this energy into the student, so that they can activate their own special animal circuitry. In other words, their energy body learns to feel and accept animal energies too.
If you choose not to believe these things, I respect your right to believe as you wish, but if you’re trying to convince me that my direct experience is wrong, I don’t think you will be too successful.
You can insist that something isn’t true until the cows come home, but if it’s true it will continue to be true regardless of what you think. You can try to explain it away in a hundred ways if you like, but at some point you will have to say “I just don’t know”.
Peace,
Russian Silat
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Looks like PCP has incorporated Erle Montaigue's 12 Qi disruption movements. They do seem to have an effect. I dont think you can knock someone out with this method though.
http://www.taiji-qigong.co.uk/Articles/disrupt.html
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Or maybe he has incorporated stuff from Indonesia, or maybe the stuff exists in Indonesia and China. I can tell you that Pendekar Sanders has never studied anything but Indonesian Silat, so there is no other possible source for it in our style.
If Erle Montaigue can't use his stuff to knock people out, then it's definately not related to our stuff, because we can and do knock people out!
Thanks for the link just the same.
Peace,
Russian Silat
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I took a look at this site, and it advertises a video you can buy for alot of money that teaches you energy points to strike. This is nothing like what we do.
We do energy passes which have absolutely no physical contact with the opponent, and can be performed from a distance.
-Russian Silat
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Hi..
Mr. Russian Silat, can you tell us just in general how PCP practioners generate the energy ? You don't have to divulge the secret ilmu or anything just general explanation.
Is it thru physical practice, yoga like breathing technique, mantras, or meditation ?
Russian Silat :
We do energy passes which have absolutely no physical contact with the opponent, and can be performed from a distance.
In some part of Indonesia this is called Santet or Teluh. Usually related to black magic.
Thanks,
Faiz
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We sacrifice babies to satan, who then gives us total dominion.
Just kidding, I thought maybe that was what some folks wanted to hear.
Actually it is a combination of movement, breath and intention. Everyone has tenaga dalam, but when you do certain movements and breathing patterns, you increase this energy. Then, if you simply practice, the energy will flow and move as you wish it to.
When we do kembagan with the movements of Pukulan Cimande Pusaka, it has the dual effect of putting us into a trance and generating excess tenaga dallam. You can combine certain movements with holding the breath in, or holding it out. This creates positive and negative polarities which you can then direct in and out of certain centers of your body, such as your hands, when you inhale or exhale.
It feels as if I have created a vacuum inside myself, then the energy rushes to fill it, together with my breath. Then, it feels like there is a big potential inside of me waiting to be released, which I do with breath and through limbs.
Energy follows breath, and the feeling of holding the breath out and holding it in teaches us what the energy is supposed to do. You can use your mind to do all of this, the breathing techniques are just a bridge to help you understand what's going on.
There are visualization exercises and mantras which can help this proccess. Training the eye sight and powers of visualization takes place with exercises in the circle of creation, sometimes involving substances such as a flame, bowl of water, magic weaponry, and other things. This is very similar to tantra, where you sharpen your ability to hold a certain detailed picture in your imagination.
There are no real secrets per se; people try to make it seem secretive and mysterious so that they can impress people and manipulate them. It is just this- your energy follows the patterns of your consciousness. If you imagine your energy doing something, it will happen. Exercises, as I said, are just a bridge. You are training your imagination, your intent, and your acceptance of the reality of these things.
It is like the stretching of yoga- it is like a "clue" which gives you hints as to how to circulate your energy. You do something physical, but the physical teaches you the spiritual. This, in my mind, is what qualifies something as "pusaka".
Some people will have more talent at this than others, but everyone can have at least some degree of success with it.
We have a langka which is expressly for building energy, there is no combative application. Energy is drawn through the body, from father sky to mother earth, then concentrated in various parts of the body. The first part of the langka brings power, gravity to our blows, and a strong connection to the earth. The second part of the langka expands and invigorates the sphere of energy (aura) which surrounds us, and the third part of the langka concentrates energy in the limbs.
We also have a set of tenaga dalam jurus. The movements of the jurus are done with a special breathing pattern and mantras. The mantras are taken from the 99 most beautiful names of God in Arabic. The name is spoken while the juru is performed, and the effect takes place at a distance.
In essence, every time you perform kembagan it should be an energy building exercise. We try to do our movements fluidly, with proper relaxation and breathing, in a trance-like state. You must also visualize what exactly you want the energy to do.
Then your energy will follow what you're doing with your body. Then, your movements become quite different.
I've seen some Silat where the strikes and hands move very fast, but there doesn't seem to be any power behind the blows. Maybe if the person had a knife, but empty hands the stuff just looks like it wouldn't hurt too much.
If you see Master Sanders moving, he hits very fast, but there is a fluid power to his movements which is distinctive. This comes from every movement being informed by tenaga dalam.
He can hit you several time, very quickly, from a very close distance, and every time he contacts you it hurts BAD!!!
At a seminar he conducted in Russia he casually demonstrated a backhand speed punch on my held-up hand, and even though he was explaining something at the same time and didn't even put much force behind it, he actually knocked me back several feet, and my hand hurt like the dickens.
The guy who could knock a knife out of your hand from across the room had an unusual talent, I doubt I could ever attain to that. But training the energy makes my strikes faster, more relaxed and more powerful. And the tenaga dalam has given me a decisive edge on the street a few times.
Everyone will appraoch the energy work in their own way, and get different things from it. Doing kembagan in this art leaves one feeling refreshed, like you've just had a good massage.
So to answer your question, it is through physical practice with special breath and intention.
Best Regards,
Russian Silat
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Peace, Krisno, welcome to the discussion.
Regards,
Russian Silat
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We sacrifice babies to satan, who then gives us total dominion.
Just kidding, I thought maybe that was what some folks wanted to hear.
That sounds like a really cheap Indonesia horror flick ;D
Thank you for explaining the methods practiced by PCP.
I think that method is also found in other Indonesian Silat styles and even in Chinese Martial Arts thru Qiqong exercise.
The mantras are taken from the 99 most beautiful names of God in Arabic
Is that the same as Asma Allah or Asmaul Husna ? Do you need to belief in a certain religion in order to learn the higher level of the ilmu ?
Regards,
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Hello Godam,
You asked,
"Is that the same as Asma Allah or Asmaul Husna ? Do you need to belief in a certain religion in order to learn the higher level of the ilmu ?"
I honestly don't know the answer to your questions, I am not a high-level Ilmu practitioner.
I don't know if you need to be a certain religion, but I think you must accept the idea that the 99 most beautiful names are aspects of the Creator, and that it is His power which informs the techniques.
You would have to ask my teacher about these things.
Peace to you,
Russian Silat
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Peace Faiz,
I’ve been in touch with my teacher regarding your questions.
I also asked him about the link with the techniques posted above. His response is that he has been teaching seminars on these techniques for many years, long before these tapes were made by this person. He in fact did see the advertisement for the tapes when they first came out and attempted to contact this individual, to see whether he learned his techniques in Indonesia or not.
Pendekar Sanders says that these tapes seem to leave out certain key elements which make the energy passes effective, such as the tightening of certain muscles at key times, and the role played by the eyes. This may perhaps account for the fact that they cannot cause loss of consciousness.
My teacher says that another person by the name of George Dillman practices something which is similar to the PCP stuff, and we are on friendly terms with him. I believe one of our gurus actually gave some lessons at a few of his training camps.
Regarding mantras, and the 99 most beautiful names.
When any group of people believes in something, an energetic potential is born in the astral plane, and that in fact is real. Many of the old “gods” people believed in during pagan times had a degree of power exactly because many people believed in them and created an astral entity with the attributes of this “god”. That is the basic idea.
The same situation exists with mantras. People have used certain mantras for hundreds of years, so they contain the built up energy of many generations of belief. They are storage cells for certain types of energy, like astral batteries.
If you use those mantras, you have the energy of thousands, millions of people at your fingertips.
Here is the key…
In order to tap into the energy of these mantras, you must believe in them just as the people who originally spoke them believed in them. One doesn’t necessarily have to convert to a specific religion, but one must hold the same belief as those who used the mantra. If you hold an opposing world-view, it would be very difficult to access this energy.
This is why although I am not a Muslim, I have read and studied the Quran, I read Rumi and other Sufi poets, I study Al-Ghazzali, and I try to respect this religion, and not believe the lies told about it in western media.
I know that my basic world-view and beliefs are not in contradiction to the spirit of Islam, even though I do not conform to the letter of its dogma.
And I know that Islam teaches that all people are naturally born Muslim, that it is the natural state of spiritually healthy humanity.
This has an empowering effect on my ability to use the mantras which have an association with Islam, and on my openness to those aspects of Indonesian mysticism which are tied to Sufism.
Best Regards,
Russian Silat
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“His response is that he has been teaching seminars on these techniques for many years, long before these tapes were made by this person. He in fact did see the advertisement for the tapes when they first came out and attempted to contact this individual, to see whether he learned his techniques in Indonesia or not.Pendekar Sanders says that these tapes seem to leave out certain key elements which make the energy passes effective”
When I first read your technique which incorporates passes over meridians, either increasing the energy or shorting it out I immediately thought of the 12 qi disruption forms of Erle Montigue. Its interesting that your teacher has also had contact with Erle and studied the tapes!
BTW Erle says it is possible to put someone asleep with this technique but not from a distance, you have to be very close for it to work.
“My teacher says that another person by the name of George Dillman practices something which is similar to the PCP stuff, and we are on friendly terms with him. I believe one of our gurus actually gave some lessons at a few of his training camps.”
Erle Montigue is also aware of George Dillman and in fact has wrote an article on him, follow the link below
http://www.taiji-qigong.co.uk/Free_To_Download/Erle's%20Articles/Articles/george.htm
http://www.taiji-qigong.co.uk/Free_To_Download/Erle's%20Articles/Articles/dillman_and_me.htm
There have also been televised study’s on both George Dillman and one of his students, follow the links below.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI
You said :
“ George Dillman practices something which is similar to the PCP stuff, and we are on friendly terms with him” ????
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Peace Faiz,
I’ve been in touch with my teacher regarding your questions.
I also asked him about the link with the techniques posted above. His response is that he has been teaching seminars on these techniques for many years, long before these tapes were made by this person. He in fact did see the advertisement for the tapes when they first came out and attempted to contact this individual, to see whether he learned his techniques in Indonesia or not.
Hi Russian Silat..
Thanks for your response. I wasn't refering to any individual when I said similar things are seen in other silat styles or even Chinese Martial Arts. I think in Chinese arts they have the concept of tapping the cosmos energy. That's why some chinese masters are able to perform techniques in long succession without getting winded. They borrow the energy of the universe. To sceptics of the taping energy concept these masters are just in better shape than others that's why they don't get tired easily or they perform the techniques so slow you can do a million of these before you're out of breath :)
In any case, they are able to feel the energy of the animals they perform in their forms. That's why we see the difference for example, between a new student practicing the tiger form and a master practicing the tiger form. Whereas the new student performs the mechanical aspect of the techniques, the masters perform the energy aspect of the techniques. I used CMA as an example since there is more literature about them out there compared to Silat.
My teacher says that another person by the name of George Dillman practices something which is similar to the PCP stuff, and we are on friendly terms with him. I believe one of our gurus actually gave some lessons at a few of his training camps.
I think George Dillman does Kyorho Kempo ? It's basically similar to Dim Mak. At a higher level the practitioner is able to transmit energy to the vital points without touching the person. I don't know if it can make a person faint or not from a distance. But in a Demo George did that.
They had pressure points on the news a while back ago. They asked a pressure point teacher (under George Dillman's school) to do a demonstration. It worked on his students but when asked if to try it on the reporter it didn't work. The teacher was also asked to try it on students from another school, it didn't work either.
When asked why it didn't work, George Dillman explained that if the person's tongue is or the toes are in a certain position the technique doesn't work. I guess it has something to do with short nerve circuit being complete ?? I don't know.
Regarding mantras, and the 99 most beautiful names.
When any group of people believes in something, an energetic potential is born in the ...
I was curious how PCP generates the tenaga dalam. I was curious, I wanted to know if the techniques you guys practice are similar or different than other styles Indonesian or Non Indonesian styles. Thanks for the explanation.
Regards,
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Hello D
Like I said, Pendekar Sanders had already been teaching this stuff for years before those tapes ever came out.
Master Sanders first spoke of these things publicly in his book "Fighting Magic", published in 1987.
When did this other stuff appear?
As I already explained, we tried to contact him because it seemed as if he was doing something similar to us. One of our students brought it to our Master's attention, and we wanted to see if this stuff was for real or not. We ended up not having a relationship with this person.
You say that his stuff doesn't work to render people unconscious. That is because he doesn't teach certain elements related to tensing muscles at certain times, and the proper use of the eyes.
If you think the two systems are related, I suggest you order Pendekar Sanders Ilmu and fighting magic tapes, then compare them with this other guy. You may also be able to get a copy of "Fighting Magic". Then you will be in a position to compare.
Before then, you are just talking to the wind.
-Russian Silat
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Would anyone be offended if I posted some quotes which I love from the Quran?
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I think that won't be a good idea
people can be offended by that ;)
besides that, ............. it has nothing to do with this topic
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Okay, glad I asked. I wanted to give scriptural support for some of the things I discussed earlier.
-Russian Silat
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Hello D
Like I said, Pendekar Sanders had already been teaching this stuff for years before those tapes ever came out.
Master Sanders first spoke of these things publicly in his book "Fighting Magic", published in 1987.
When did this other stuff appear?
-Russian Silat
I contacted Erle to get the answer to your question, he said:
"Began in 1981! no one has ever taught them before I put them out!"
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Ask Erle if he thinks Pendekar Sanders teaches the same stuff as he does.
Ask him when he put his first tapes out.
Does Erle teach death touch, or energy passes?
Does his stuff make people lose consciousness?
Are you saying energy passes do not exist in Indoensia, and aren't taught as part of Ilmu?
If our stuff is the same, why do we not touch people?
Why do we emphasize different aspects of muscle tension and eye focus?
Who are you, and what is your real object in trying to discredit us?
Have you reviewed our materials and done a comparison, or are you still talking to the wind?
-Russian Silat