Q&A

[EricB]

@ Bram: don't start about the Thouars family in this thread !!

you start mixing up things we don't want that.

You are in a dialogue with PCP, lets keep it on topic and don't start a second discussion inside another.



WTF I'm starting to look like a kindergarten teacher here 

[Ranggalana]

Sorry, Sir!

Salam,
Barm

[EricB]

It is not that we are not allowed to discuss the Thouars family, but do it in a thread about them

It's to preserve that we mix-up discussions

[pekir]

Pendekar Sanders is continually criticized for teaching via video, and yet almost every other American based silat system employees the exact same method at times.  Is it prefered?  Hardly!  It's 10,000% better to have Silat instruction in person.  But the shear size of the United States and simple fact that Silat is so few and far between, makes it a necessary evil to help spread these arts.  Indeed, my first exposure to Silat was at the old King Dragon school and that school was founded by guys that were intially exposed to Silat via video!  From there, teachers were brought in and we used those bits of information to train our asses off!  Would it have been perferable to have Sanders there training with us daily?  Hell yeah it would have!  But we did the best that we could with what he have. 

What's even more funny is that other groups openly publish videos on this very website and they are not only not chastized like we are, they are praised.  The double standard is astounding!

Michael

Hi Michael,

I'm a critic of teaching silat by means of video but as far as I'm concerned this is indeed not a monopoly of your teacher. The reason why we might never get to understand each other on subjects like these is probably founded by a very fundamental different understanding as to what extend and for what reasons a martial art should be promoted and spread around the world.

As far as I'm concerned people can take everything they have learned to where ever they want. But for what reason should any one person (not specifically related to PCP) feel an almost 'religious' urge to set up a worldwide movement in order to promote silat to the world? Why should silat be promoted to the world, isn't it OK when it grows just organically?

If one feels this 'world promotion' is essential you might sooner approve of any 'modern' way to transfer training information and set up schooling.

For those who feel there is no absolute necessity for 'world promotion' of silat in the first place the use of 'modern' media will only extend the risk of a less intrinsic and intensive training. These people (like myself) will probably always stay opposed.

Selling video's showing your silat is not the same though as selling video's with the promise that you can learn some kind of deadly martial art. I buy video's if they promise something interesting because I find it interesting to get a little insight. Almost the same way I look at blockbuster DVD's, the ones that are really good I might see more than once....

I do realize that there are Indonesian/Malayan teachers who have adopted these 'modern' media. And alike their western peers I have no right to deny them their right to make their choices but you can hardly expect me to show them my enthusiastic support for their worldwide activities.

Last but not least. If anyone shows their video's publicly there is no difference with  major movies we go and see in cinema's. Some get good reviews some don't, not all critics have shared opinions...

Regards,
Patrick

[Ranggalana]

I would not like a world wide silat movement unless it was together with all other transformatiove body cultures as well. Why only silat? Remember the words of the founder of Cikalong: there is no best game, it is always the player.

A more positive body culture that brings forth and utilizes humanity's collective knowledge of the body is very much needed. The spread of silat (and KungFu, and Yoga etc) is one way to bring about that more positive culture (the antitheses of body building and anorexia culture) ... but it is best done in small doses, intensively. Like lighting millions of candles over a life time, rather than making an explosion that turns into a bonfire.

Good videos, I think are fine and a great addition to training one by one, although the best tuition I have ever got was when I was training alone. Silat moves have the teachings and wisdom within them and you just need to repeat them millions of times until you go Eureka! and you get an 'ilmu', as a gift from God, given because your correct efforts to move.

As the saying goes, you can train silat on the back of a waterbufalo. Some of you might know, kids in Jawa used to look after and play with water bufalo (they need 2 baths a day) ... and kids can lay on there backs, stand up, turn around, and that is the space you have. That space, the buffaloes back, is wide enough to learn silat.

What I am trying to say is that not one single aspect makes a journey down the silat path successful, except, the traveler's own mind.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana

[Gajah]

As far as I'm concerned people can take everything they have learned to where ever they want. But for what reason should any one person (not specifically related to PCP) feel an almost 'religious' urge to set up a worldwide movement in order to promote silat to the world? Why should silat be promoted to the world, isn't it OK when it grows just organically?

Absolutely Pekir, I'm in 100% agreement here! Why is there this perceived idea that we need to 'convert' people to silat, or 'teach silat to the world'. In the UK I had to make quite an effort to find a silat teacher when I could have quite easily joined one of a hundred generic MA schools. I would sooner learn in my teachers back garden than one of those sterile, businesslike, McDojo MA factories. Is this what we really want?

A more positive body culture that brings forth and utilizes humanity's collective knowledge of the body is very much needed. The spread of silat (and KungFu, and Yoga etc) is one way to bring about that more positive culture (the antitheses of body building and anorexia culture) ... but it is best done in small doses, intensively. Like lighting millions of candles over a life time, rather than making an explosion that turns into a bonfire.

Agreed here too Bram, but although silat can be used in this positive manner is the 'commoditisation' that comes with popularisation worth the risk to silat itself? Do we not run the risk of trivialising it particularly in the West? After all given the track record in the West so far............

[Ranggalana]

....
Agreed here too Bram, but although silat can be used in this positive manner is the 'commoditisation' that comes with popularisation worth the risk to silat itself? Do we not run the risk of trivialising it particularly in the West? After all given the track record in the West so far............

It is already happening and whatever grumpy old men like me say it will always be changing. That is OK. To search for the special will always not be easy. Even here in Ngawi where there are many silat schools, getting good tuition is not easy. Differences between pelatih are so great there is no standard quality for a trainer. If you are lucky and do alot of work yourself you get by. You can't pick and choose if you want to have a wider choice than a handful of schools, three of which have an anual war every Jawanese New Year.

Promote silat to the world? That is what the old IPSI men wanted, to get silat in the Olympics. It might be a good idea for some but for me it is not. I like the fact that silat is part of the culture and is always very local.... even when it is in Hendon.

I like the fact that there is German silat, Californian silat, Dutch silat, alongside Jawa silat, Sunda silat and new silat, Indonesian silat. It shows that 'bhineka tunggal ike' is universal...

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana

[Russian Silat]

Selemat to all respected board members,

I agree that video tapes do have their limitations, but there are some advantages as well.

If you learn something from your teacher it is inevitable that you won't learn the lesson 100%. But if this lesson is recorded, you can refer to it over and over again, and greatly increase your understanding of what was taught.

I think videos also safeguard against innovation. Styles can change over generations, and this is sometimes good, sometimes bad. But can you imagine if we had videotapes of the movement of Embah Kahir, for example? Then he could be imitated and learned from directly, without the distortion of generations.

I'm not saying that history distorts the arts necessarily, but having such a permanent record does go a long way towards promoting consistency and conservativism, and safeguards against innovation and false claims.

My favorite way to use videotapes are as a supplement to face-to-face training. The concept is no different than note-taking during the lesson.

There is also the "McMartial Arts" video genre too. Here the concern is not with making knowledge available, but pure profit. This is part of a whole strategy which has evolved in the US about "how to make money in martial arts". Guys like the Gracie brothers did mass-mailings in the 1990's, only to sell alot of tapes to interested people who thought they could learn the stuff over a tape! Then when you realize it's impossible, they charge you a ton of money to come train with them in person.

This is a double edged sword. While on the one hand we get people who are focused on pure exploitation, on the other hand I feel that having full-time professional instructors really benefits the development of the art. If all you do every day is teach and train the art, this is good for the art, of course, and you can attain higher levels of skill. A good example of this is Guru Besar Jerry Jacobs in Michgan. He's probably the best PCP guy after Pendekar Sanders, precisely because he invests so much time in teaching and training.

But in full-time schools, you have to make a living. The US or Russia is not Indonesia, there are other realities to be accounted for. Just to have a place to train is expensive, let alone maintaining your own private residence, feeding your family, buying medical insurance, etc.

All of this means that you must insure a steady flow of students coming in the door, because many of them will not stay permanently. This means constant marketing, and producing videotapes is an excellent marketing strategy, as well as a much needed way to diversify income.

This is just the reality of MA in the west.

So the internet is also important. If a person or group of people decides they don't like you, it's pretty easy to go online and start trashing someone for this or that reason. This is more than just friendly or hostile argument- the result is actually to take food out of the mouths of the families of men who have dedicated their lives to teaching the art in question.

I know that Pendekar Sanders has a secure non-martial arts related income. He produces videotapes mainly for his own students, but all people are welcome to buy them. I haven't gone comparison shopping, but his current rate of $30 per tape I believe is below market average, and he does this to make the material affordable to those who need it.

This is why I get so upset when people trash my art online- they make assumptions, and instead of asking us directly to satisfy their questions, they drag the process out on the internet. So even if you do manage to reconcile in the end, there have been alot of people who have been turned off in the process. This is just plain old disrespect to those who have taken the risk to operate a full-time program, such as Guru Besar Liam McDonald in Ireland.

These guys are my friends, my brothers, and Pendekar Sanders is like a father to us. We've known each other for a long time. I don't teach for profit, only to cover expenses and to re-imburse me for my time. But good friends of mine rely on PCP to put bread in the mouths of their children. Our art is richer for their efforts, and it pains me to see their hard work rewarded with controversy and scorn, especially if this could have been avoided by direct communication in the first place.

Peace (hopefully for good)

Russian Silat

[pekir]

Selamat Russian Silat,

In the end everybody need to decide for themselves how they want to approach silat and teach their knowledge. I may have an (strong) opinion for myself but it really ends there.

You used the words "imitate and Learned" in relation to what if there was a videotape of Embah Kahir available. I think this is just the point some of us are trying to make. You cannot really experience the technique if you haven't felt the supposed technique in physical training under the guidance of a qualified teacher, it's about a lot more than mere imitating. You need someone who can actually make you feel and guide you through the necessary lenghty training process. Repeating your techniques over and over and being corrected by someone who truly knows is what will make the difference in the end.

Can video be of help in training, probably a bit as long as you have a teacher as your main source of knowledge. If you spend more time acquiring techniques from a video than from your teacher something is wrong.....

As far as full-time training (not so much professional) is concerned. I think this is a choice one has to make. I've chosen to chase a certain career in the media which makes I cannot train as intensive as my teacher or his grandfather did, my own teacher started a company but still managed to spend a lot of hours a day training his arts. His grandfather decided his silat was more important than buying a bigger house. So he settled for a smaller rented house, he was not rich moneywise but was probably a millionaire in satisfaction. He didn't need a special place to train or teach since he never accepted more than a few students anyway. Training could be done in the living-room, in the basement or in the garden. He lived the last thirty something years in the Netherlands and Canada and not in Indonesia. He chose to pursue his ambition but refused to give up his firm believe that his MA was to precious to teach it to just anyone who was willing to pay the price. He allowed his grandson to teach in more open conditions but it was always and still is a small group of about ten to twelve people. We do train in a gym of a school nowadays but if the monthly contribution (which depends heavily on what they can afford) we ask our students is not enough I'll pay for the missing part, so you might say I pay to teach 

Do we run the risk that our specific art will not survive over time? Indeed we run that risk, it almost did happen about fifteen years ago. But one might wonder, should it survive when the actual fundamentals of what it once was are lost? I would be disappointed but prefer this sad ending over having one of my former stuents around referring to 'ancient' times while the essence or the core is gone....

Being able to successfully train successors is not so much a question of numbers though, like you said many of the 'large numbers' only stay on for a relative short time. If you would select a maximum number (like six) dedicated students and almost train them privately on a high frequency basis the bond you create will make the odds that you actually may raise a 'worthy' successor greater in your favor.

But again it depends heavily on what your mission in live in regard to silat is. I realize the IPSI has always had this goal and dream to make silat a worldwide thing. I also now that from the early beginnings there have always been influencial pesilat who have opposed these somewhat 'political' aspirations.

And I realize that nothing is going to prevent changes over time so probably I grow old being a grumpy silat dinosaur...

Regards,
Patrick

[Ranggalana]

Just a simple question: is there a fair deal in the royalty agreements between PCP,  Sanders and the sources he quotes in Tari Kolot and in Banten concerning the sales of the videos and the making money out of the curricullum? 

In Indonesia $30 is alot of money, for some families, a month's wages, for others more than that. Indonesian people have to pay for food, shelter, education, clothing, transport ... everything too. And we use money, just like in Russia or the US. When we don't have food we go hungry and having three healthy meals a day is a luxury most Indonesians don't enjoy even today.

Most Indonesians, even the more wealthy, do NOT have any form of health insurance, and when severe illness strikes, we relly on God, because we can't afford to relly on hospitals. A friend of mine dying of colon cancer begged for some morphine and was told by doctors that he should endure the pain, morphine is expensive, and enduring / suffering through the pain here will make be counted against his punishments in Hell. Most Indonesians, even the wealthy, did not grow up with regular visits to the dentists. Most Indonesians do not have access to information like the West has had for generations.

Not having those things doesn't mean we don't need them.

Russian Silat, please explain why you point out that things cost money in Russia and the US, as if they don't here? You sound like you are saying, it is easy to live as a respectable silat teacher in Tarik Kolot but not in California where you will have financial responsibilities?

I would love people to make millions from silat videos, but I would expect to see the effect of those millions in things like a change in the agriculture of the Tarik Kolot region, from the present heavy use of man made chemicals, to a more organic, natural, traditional way of farming. One thing we never seem to discuss is the relationship of most pencak silat styles with the cycles of wet-rice (sawah) farming. Hey if your videos are so successfull that Banten youths do not flock to manufacture designer trainers for less than $5 a day but choose to stay at home practicing their kelid... that would be great!

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana

[f4iz]

Hi to all..
Just thought putting in my two cents regarding this. I've watched MA videos over the years. I believe you can learn techniques from a video. However, I think it's almost impossible to master the techniques or the style just by merely learning from videos.
When I use the term Learn, I use it in a general term which means to increase one's knowledge. If person watches a MA video that shows punching technique of a certain style, that person "learns" how the punch is done in that style. If a person watches a MA video that shows a joint lock, that person "learns" how the joint lock is performed. With practice he may know how to perform it correctly according to what he saw in the video. I consider that process learning also. However, without a teacher or a senior brother/sister to teach the person it will be hard for the person to progress beyond that basic level of understanding.

Regards,
Faiz

[Michael Lee]

Good evening forum members! 

A few minutes ago I sent a PM to another forum member stating that I was going to let Russian Silat answer Bram's questions.  I just made an 'executive decision' and changed my mind.  I've decided to answer this questioning myself right now.

I think it's a good question and extremely fair in light of Bram's very real and vivid examples of the financial hardships faced by many in Indonesia.

Suffice to say, Sanders is EXTREMELY generous to his Indonesian masters.  Back in Oct/Nov, I had spelled out some dollar figures for a post I was making.  At the last minute, I thought to clear with Pendekar Sanders the financial information I was about to disclose.  He directed me to remove it from my post because he felt that it would be inappropriate for the sake of his masters' dignity to divulge just how generous he has been to them.  Indeed, just by saying this I've probably said to much.

William Sanders makes his living training horses and giving classical riding lessons.  He does not sell tons of Silat videos and books and he does not make much money off of what he does sell.  When you factor-in the initial production costs plus the time it takes him to produce and ship them, he actually loses money because he could have been doing other things.  It's a labor of love for him.

Same goes with his seminars.  He charges $750 to come in for a weekend seminar.  But when you add in the fact that he has to pay several specially trained people to take care of his horses and exotic pets while he's gone, he winds up breaking even.  He used to charge $500 for seminars, but he lost money every time he did a seminar.  When you compare this with the standard seminar fees for $1500 - $5000 here in the United States, it's easier to understand just how generous Sanders really is.

But the main point I want to stress here is that Pendekar Sanders does give back to Indonesia... GENEROUSLY!!

Michael

[optimus prime]

Hi Bram

Just a quick follow up to your and Michael posts. I find it kind of funny, that a few weeks ago, you were saying the Indonesian people were in up roar at Mr Sanders for what he was doing to Cimande, and now you are saying maybe he should send money to them. Would that be right??? To accept money from someone who was doing all this wrong? Would that money not be tainted? It smacks of double standard, you accept his money, but pay scorn on his hard work and dedication that def is something thats makes you go mmhhhh.

Now just to clear a few things up, having been a close friend of Mr Sanders, inside and out of Silat.

1) He doesnt charge Membership
2) He doesnt charge for Private Lessons to his students
3) He doesnt charge for Gradings
4) He doesnt charge a class fee, when he teaches them
5)The only fee he charges is seminar fee of $750 now that may be alot to Indonesian, but its pitence here in USA, or Western Europe, Average weekly wage is
$840 , and in Western Europe minimim wage is $520. So Mr Sanders charges very little and is between the minimum wage in Euope and average wage in American, since this is where he teaches, he adjusts his seminar fee to match.
6) I have seen him personally offer financial help to senior students at different times in their life.
7) He has made all (and I mean all) of his wealth from outside of his silat, in areas which had nothing to do with Indonesia.
Mr Sanders has sent money at many different times to Indonesian and other
people, but has always refuse to take credit for it.


So maybe Bram you can direct your attacks at other people who deserve it more.

I'm sorry things are very bad in Indonesia, but instead of attacking peoiple who are trying to help, encourage them. Instead of putting out the begging bowl, find ways to build bridges with people like Mr Sanders and others, that way maybe we can help some of the old teachers in Indonesia and be able to use medias like the internet, videos, new students, to help them financially.

Optimus

[Russian Silat]

Greetings to all,

I would like to go on record about this because I do think that Bram has very valid concerns, though mis-directed if they are towards us.

I am an anti-globalist. The thought of Indonesians slaving away in a shoe factory is disgusting for me, and I don't buy such products. I believe in economic justice for all the world's people.

When companies decide they can increase their profit margin by exploiting low-wage labor in countries like Indonesia, everyone loses. This is because the only reason for their being in Indonesia is to exploit the people as much as possible. The local people lose because their culture is attacked by this new economic system, which basically seeks to enslave them. Western societies lose because the fair wage paid to the middle class disappears, and a civil society based on a strong standard of living for the working class disappears too.

Globalization is good only for the rich bastards who already have more money than anyone would ever need. They desire more money and control, and the desire to control something or someone is evil.

My greatest hope is that traditional cultures such as those in Indonesia preserve themselves, and find their own unique path of development. I wish this because I sincerely believe that these cultures have important things to teach the western world, things westerners have forgotten during the course of history.

The study of Pencak Silat in western society should definately be a path to learning about Indonesian culture, appreciating this culture, and to create advocacy for fairness and empowerment of this culture. I am proud of my teacher's actions in this regard, and I hope I can follow his example someday.

May it be so.

Peace,

Russian Silat

P.S. Pendekar Sanders has spared no expense to help me personally further my training in this art. His self-lessness and generosity are beyond question in my mind, but it isn't something he feels is in good taste to advertise about himself.

[Russian Silat]

Why don't we try to brainstorm about some creative solutions to this end?

I think this website would be a perfect platform for uniting Silat practitioners around the world, mobilizing them and organizing them to systematically address problems in Indonesia.

According to this goal, the direct knowledge of Indonesians is invaluable.

Why aren't we talking about how we can come together to make a difference?

Peace,

Russian Silat