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SilatIndonesia.Com

Author Topic: Q&A  (Read 22687 times)

Russian Silat

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Q&A
« on: 13/12/2007 02:30 »
Greetings to all respected boardmembers,

I thank you all for your patience while we put to rest this controversy. You all have had to endure negative flaming on your website for long enough. My sincere hope is that we can move ahead to friendly dialogue with all.

I know that I have much to learn from you. Allow me to be your student by reciprocating my desire for positive communication.

The following Q&A is meant to be my personal statement regarding my art, and whatever mistakes it contains are mine alone, I beg forgiveness in advance.

Best Wishes,

Russian Silat

Pukulan Cimande Pusaka Q&A:

Q: Is PCP a traditional style of Cimande?

A: Yes, absolutely. In our style we have the complete original arts of Embah Kahir, the founder of the system.

Q: What are these arts, where did you get them, and with whose blessing?

A: These are the original Sera, Pamacan and Cimande jurus, along with Trumbu, and the original Crane Tarion of Embah Kahir. There are also kucang jurus, and many more things. These were given to us by Pendekar Mama Sukarmo of Tarik Kolot, who is the direct inheritor of these arts through Bapak Bagasol. We teach and train them with his blessing.

Q: Then why does PCP sometimes look different from other traditional Cimande styles?

A: Because our style is influenced by the art of Mas Jud, and Mas Jud combined Cimande with several other elements.

Q: What other elements?

A: According to the living relatives of Mas Jud, he studied traditional Cimande, then Cikalong, Silat Animal styles, and possibly other things as well. He called this mix “Cimande Combinasi”.

Q: How do you know PCP is connected to “Cimande Combinasi”?

A: Well, through several sources. Firstly, oral tradition from Master Willy Wetzel says that his art “Poekelan Tjiminde” comes from Mas Jud. Secondly, the living former students of Mas Jud recognize his movements and techniques in PCP. Third, the living relatives of Mas Jud teach Sera Depok and five animal jurus which contain the same techniques found in the lineage of Master Wetzel, and these relatives recognize us as part of their art.

Q: Are the Sera Depok and Five Animal jurus part of PCP too?

A: Yes, we have been blessed to have received them from the living relatives of Mas Jud, we teach and train them with their blessing.

Q: Wha Mas Jud techniques existed in your art before you received these jurus?

A: Master Willy Wetzel taught the techniques, but not in juru form. They first came down to us as movements and techniques that were not put together in the traditional way into jurus.

Q: Why do you use the word “Pusaka” in your name? Do you think you are the only source of traditional Cimande?

A: This art was given its name by the late Pendekar Suriyadi Jafri, because according to him it contains many old heirloom techniques. We are only one source of these techniques among several, and we wish to respect all traditional styles. We sincerely hope this name causes no offense, but we will continue to honor our ancestors in this art by using it.

Q: Who were Pendekar Sanders’ teachers?

A: Well, there was Guru John Malter, from whom we receive the Wetzel lineage of Poekelan Tjiminde (We changed the spelling to reflect modern Bahasa), then there were Pendekars Jafri, Sirait, Sartono, Mama Sukarmo, and the living relatives of Mas Jud. These are the main ones.

Q: Why does Mr. Sanders call himself “Pendekar”? Isn’t this disrespectful to the Pendekars living in Indonesia?

A: We certainly hope the title causes no offense. The title was not assumed, it was given, twice. First it was awarded by the organization Pendekar Banten in 1987, then again by Pendekar Mama. To not use it would be a sign of disrespect to those who gave it, and besides, Pendekar Sanders has been studying this art exclusively since 1972!

Q: Why are your instructors called “Gurus”? Isn’t this disrespectful to Gurus in Indonesia?

A: Again, we certainly wish to be respectful. Master Wetzel initiated the practice of calling teachers “Gurus”, and in our art it simply means “Teacher”. We sincerely hope that our use of this word does not diminish its value in other contexts.

Q: Is the Ilmu of Untung Surapati part of traditional Cimande?

A: No, it isn’t.

Q: Then why do you use it?

A: Our Master was introduced to Pendekar Sartono by his teachers in Java, and told that this was the most powerful lineage of Ilmu on the island. The Ilmu of Untung Surapati is compatible with any style of Silat. Pendekar Sartono himself adapted it to our animal styles, and encouraged us to blend it with everything we practice.

Q: So does PCP have traditional Cimande Ilmu?

A: Yes, certainly! We have Ilmu from the lineage of Embah Kahir through Pendekar Mama, we have Ilmu from the Wetzel lineage, and Ilmu Kontac through Mas Jud. Oh, and Ta Naga Dallam jurus!

Q: Is PCP an Islamic-centered art?

A: PCP has no specific religious affiliation, and is open to all people, regardless of their faith.

Q: Is it true that that these things can only be learned in PCP?

A: Well, not exactly… There are teachers in the US who still pass along the Poekelan Tjimindi of Master Wetzel. Pendekar Mama and his students train the same Embah Kahir arts that we do. The relatives of Mas Jud teach and train Sera Depok, and the five animal jurus. Pendekar Sartono still lives (may he live much longer!), so theoretically one might seek him out and learn. Pendekar Jafri has left a legacy of Langka Empat instructors. So yes, you can learn all of this elsewhere. But only in our Aliran will you find it all together in one place.

Q: Do you think people shouldn’t go to train with masters in Indonesia?

A: Absolutely not! We think as many people as possible should seek out Masters in Indonesia in order to support these arts in their homeland and keep them alive there. All practitioners should spend time in Indonesia to learn more about the cultural context of the art, and diversify their experience.

Our Master still goes to Indonesia to learn from native sources there, he has for many years now. We strongly support the roots of our art in their fatherland.

Q: Do you say that your art is better than arts in Indonesia?

A: No. We say that our art is a great art, able to stand with pride next to any great art. Is it sometimes better than what we see in Indonesia? To be perfectly honest, there are varying levels of quality in the Indonesian Aliran. Some are mediocre, some are exceptional. All of our experience has led us to the conclusion that our students and our style can stand with the best.

Q: Do you wish to offend Indonesians?

A: Absolutely not! We are extremely grateful to those good people from Indonesia who have shared their most precious legacy with us. We are forever in their debt! It saddens us tremendously that there has been any controversy at all.

Q: Where did Pendekar Sanders learn his Keris techniques? Isn’t the keris obsolete as a fighting weapon?

A: The Keris survives as a fighting weapon, but not everywhere- the techniques are rare. Our techniques come from Pendekar Jafri, who also taught us the clurit, Harimau, and many other things. Other Masters such as the late Pendekar Herman Suwanda also knew and taught Keris techniques.

Q: What about the Kucang? Isn’t it merely an Islamic talisman which is no longer used for fighting?

A: The kucang is an Islamic talisman, but it also pre-dates the arrival of Islam to Java. Originally the knife represented the shape of the island of Java, meant to represent political unity. Our kucang jurus come from Pendekar Mama, and other fighting techniques from Pendekar Jafri.

Q: Why do you no longer teach the 18 standing jurus?

A: There is a possibility that these jurus come from Mas Jud through the DeVries family, but we’re not 100% sure. This ambiguity, combined with other surrounding controversy, has led us to discontinue them as an active component of our curriculum. Besides, our students have plenty to learn as it is!

Q: Do you wish to have friendship with other styles?

A: Yes, absolutely, but this has been made difficult by a few individuals who have chosen to have a negative, close-minded attitude about us. In spite of this, we have trained together with several Silat luminaries, and maintain good relations with them. Hopefully this circle of good relations can grow larger.

Q: Do you like flame wars?

A: No, they are a great waste of time, and spread unwanted negative energy. We only wish to state the truth of who and what we are, and to not let negative comments against us exist unanswered in cyberspace. We would much rather have constructive dialogue.

Q: Do you have documentation of the things you claim here?

A: Yes, simply visit www.cimande.com and there will be full documentation.

-Peace...
« Last Edit: 13/12/2007 18:35 by Russian Silat »

Ranggalana

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #1 on: 14/12/2007 09:09 »
Hello Foydor,

If you don't mind, I might add to the questions, to make things clear?

1. Going by the names, which would seem to be the original art, Cimande Combinasi, or Cimande Pusaka?

2. Do you still maintain that PCP has nothing to do with Islam? So what was Abah Khoir? Animist? He has a Muslim's name? What about Abdul Kadir Jaelani?

3. Why do you have several Guru Besar in your organization and only one pendekar?

4. Is it true that Sanders has never met Pak Sukarma?

5. Is it true that you guys are in contact and work together with the www.indotalisman.com website? If so, what exactly do you do with the site? There is a photo of the guy who runs it in the www.cimande.com website.

6. Don't you think that Sanders was being rude when he says 'look at me being so good that I baffle these Indonesian pesilat who can't figure what I am doing?' when he comments about the vids about his playing with Alm. Suwanda and Pak Made Bawa?

7. Do you think that Bali culture / religion is Animist rather than Hindu Bali (agame tirte) ...?

8. When you teach keris, do you teach keris Jawa, keris Bugis, keris Palembang, keris Melayu, or keris Sundang or do you teach all? How do they differ?

9. Do you think that your ellaborations on 'elements' and ilmu on PCP reflect some sort of 'dogmatism'? ... I mean, in chemistry class 30 years ago I was taught that water is NOT and element, and neither is AIR, FIRE or the EARTH....

There you go... nine questions for now which I sincerely hope you might answer and that your answers do serve to clear the controversy and bring understanding and peace.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Michael Lee

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #2 on: 14/12/2007 11:18 »
Sigh........  absolutely nothing positive add...   :-\


mantis

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #3 on: 14/12/2007 14:07 »
AS MUCH AS I HATE TO SAY IT I CAN SEE WHY SANDERS REFERS TO THIS AS A HATE SITE . I HAVE WATCHED AS A CURIOUS OBSERVER . THE PCP GUYS ARE GOING WAY OVERBOARD IN PROVIDING SOME FASCINATING TRAINING AND INTERNAL WORKINGS OF WHAT THEY DO AND NO ONE CHIMES IN WITH A SINGLE POSITIVE THING.   BUT IT SEEMS TO ME BRAM FOLLOWS THEM ARROUND FROM THREAD TO THREAD TRYING TO SOW DISCORD AND LEAD THE TALK AWAY FROM REALY FASCINATING STUFF INTO WHO KNOWS WHO , WHO MET WHO ,ETC ETC SHEES WHY ISNT  THIS GUY BANNED ?????? I DONT GIVE A SH......ABOUT WHAT THE CONNECTION TO SOME GUY FROM SOME WEBSITE IS ETC , THAT SOUNDS LIKE CHIC GOSIP!!!!!!  TELL ME MORE ABOUT THE TRAINING SO I CAN SEE IF I CAN USE SOMTHING TO IMPROVE MYSELF . I WAS WAITING TO SEE A BUNCH OF GREAT INTERCHANGES AND I GET THIS SAME CRAP FROM THE SAME GUY ON EVERY THREAD . WHY AM I THE ONLY PERSON BITCHING ABOUT THIS , IF IT KEEPS UP THIS SITE IS NOT EVEN WORTH READING ANYMORE ,MAY AS WELL SIT WITH THE GIRL FRIEND AND WATCH A SOAP. kUDOS TO THE PCP GUYS WHO HAVE TRIED TO KEEP THIS ON A LEARNING TYPE DIALOG . I HAVE MUCH MORE RESPECT FOR YOU GUYS NOW AND MUCH LESS FOR THE OTHER CHARACTER . 

Michael Lee

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #4 on: 14/12/2007 21:05 »
Thanks for you input Mantis.  Very well said.

I think that this site as a lot to offer so I'm not ready to give up on it.  However, I couldn't help but notice the same thing you did:  When it comes to tearing us down, post after post after post.  When it comes supporting us, only a small handful of posts by people not directly associated with Pukulan Cimande Pusaka.  Are we really that bad?  I know we are not and I had hoped that by now, we would have changed enough hearts and minds on this forum to have a few positive posts towards us besides the small number that we've had.

As stated in the guestbook, my primary goal in posting on this website was to show the forum members that PCP is the real deal.  I've personally devoted countless hours in putting together my posts for this forum.  I know it often takes several days, sometimes even weeks, for members to respond, but I have a growing feeling that my efforts have been in vain.  I still hope that I've/we've managed to get the mental gears going in our direction for a silent majority, but I just don't know.

12 step programs taught me about the danger of expectations.  One of my favorite slogans is: Expectations are premeditated resentments.  Premeditated... the most perfect word on the planet for that sentence.   :)  And in that vain, I've done my best to not expect anything from this forum. 

But I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I'm starting to become just a little bit disappointed.  For example, only Doc D has mentioned that he saw Keris techniques from Suwanda.  Suwanda has a published video here in the United States about Keris fighting, and Suwanda's Silat is Javanese through and through.  Doc also mentioned that he's seen Kujang fighting as well from Suwanda.  And both Jafri and Suwanda openly taught the Kujang.  Yet it seems that besides Doc D, nobody will speak up against the voices that there are not Javanese Keris techniques or Kujang jurus.  Even the people that have been to Java and have personally seen the Kujang taught there won't speak up and say what they know to be true.  Is it because we are thought of so poorly that they don't want to appear to be supporting us?

Pendekar Sanders is continually criticized for teaching via video, and yet almost every other American based silat system employees the exact same method at times.  Is it prefered?  Hardly!  It's 10,000% better to have Silat instruction in person.  But the shear size of the United States and simple fact that Silat is so few and far between, makes it a necessary evil to help spread these arts.  Indeed, my first exposure to Silat was at the old King Dragon school and that school was founded by guys that were intially exposed to Silat via video!  From there, teachers were brought in and we used those bits of information to train our asses off!  Would it have been perferable to have Sanders there training with us daily?  Hell yeah it would have!  But we did the best that we could with what he have. 

What's even more funny is that other groups openly publish videos on this very website and they are not only not chastized like we are, they are praised.  The double standard is astounding!


Sanders has been promoting Pencak Silat here in the United States since early 1981.  That's almost 27 years!  Longer than some of the readers have been alive.  He should be thanked all day and night, not torn down again and again.  Is he perfect?  Absolutely not.  He's a human being just like you and me.  But for the literally thousands of people he's exposed to Indonesian Silat and for honor he gives to his Indonesian teachers, he should thanked again and again. 

Fast forward to today, instead of helping us and supporting us, our group gets nothing but ridicule from the very same Indonesians that we are trying so hard to emulate.  It's a damn shame.  What's worse, people who know better, won't speak up.

Anyways, I'm an eternal glass is half full type of guy and 'despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart.'

Peace to all,
Michael
« Last Edit: 17/12/2007 04:59 by Cimande Fan »

Russian Silat

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #5 on: 14/12/2007 22:30 »
Dear Bram,

I think you misunderstood- this Q&A is not meant to hold dialogue with you.

This is meant to speak to the good people in Indonesia who may be confused by your continuous misrepresentations of us. I think they deserve to hear the truth right from the source, instead of relying upon your slander for information.

I think I speak for everyone in PCP when I say that we owe you nothing except maybe another beating.

Your personal jihad has gone on long enough. You pretend that you are the defender of Indonesian culture and honor against distortion by westerners and non-Muslims. The real truth is that you lost face to one of our students, and you use “defending Indo-Islamic Silat” as an excuse to attack us for personal reasons.

In doing this you not only disgrace yourself, but you also heap contempt upon your fellow countrymen and co-religionists, by using their religion and culture as a pretense to satisfy your own ego.

Shame on you.

I came here to make friends on behalf of the Russian Silat community, to share and learn. You respond by saying “we don’t want their friendship, what have the Russians ever done for us?” Very well. I’ll relay your sentiment to as many people here as possible, in English and in Russian.

I just hope you don’t pretend to speak on behalf of all the good people of Indonesia.

I’m willing to humor you this one last time, but after this, expect no answers from us.

Your questions are in italics:

1. Going by the names, which would seem to be the original art, Cimande Combinasi, or Cimande Pusaka?  
I already answered this, but if you’re having trouble understanding, Mas Jud called his art Cimande Combinasi, Master Wetzel called his art Poekelan Tjimande, and Pendekar Jafri added the “Pusaka”.

2. Do you still maintain that PCP has nothing to do with Islam? So what was Abah Khoir? Animist? He has a Muslim's name? What about Abdul Kadir Jaelani? What I said is that PCP has no specific religious affiliation. We do have some Ilmu and kebatinan which is influenced partly by Islam, as this religion is practiced in Indonesia.

3. Why do you have several Guru Besar in your organization and only one pendekar? We use the title ‘Guru Besar’ in a different sense than you present it. In our art it simply means “Master Teacher”. If it means “Master of Gurus” in another context, so be it. To go on about this is a disingenuous argument, created out of the futility of other failed arguments against us.

4. Is it true that Sanders has never met Pak Sukarma? Pendekar Sanders and Pendekar Sukarma know each other in real life very well. If you doubt this, simply go to Tarik Kolot and check it out for yourself. Will you do this?

5. Is it true that you guys are in contact and work together with the www.indotalisman.com website? If so, what exactly do you do with the site? There is a photo of the guy who runs it in the www.cimande.com website.
I’ve never visited that website, I know nothing about it. From what I know, the gentleman who runs the site is a friend of PCP. We tend to be friends with anyone who is friendly towards us.

6. Don't you think that Sanders was being rude when he says 'look at me being so good that I baffle these Indonesian pesilat who can't figure what I am doing?' when he comments about the vids about his playing with Alm. Suwanda and Pak Made Bawa?
Pendekar Sanders never said that, that is pure inflammatory slander. Putting those words into quotes is “yellow journalism”. Are you a yellow journalist? If you do indeed have a background in journalism, then this is intentional on your part.
Indeed, the misguided power of words is the only power open to you, which is why you try to exercise it so much. Your silat was certainly ineffective against us, and you still refuse to meet us face to face, so words are your only option.
But if this is indeed your honest impression of what he said, which I doubt, then it is all a big misunderstanding, and I apologize for what I said above.

7. Do you think that Bali culture / religion is Animist rather than Hindu Bali (agame tirte) ...? I am not an expert on Balinese culture, but I do know that it is much more inclusive and flexible than you are. Do you say that Balinese or Hindu culture has no connection to Animism? I find this the more outrageous claim, in need of support. Mas Agong, who is a Cimande trance master, moved to Bali in order to practice his Animist Ilmu without persecution from people such as yourself.

8. When you teach keris, do you teach keris Jawa, keris Bugis, keris Palembang, keris Melayu, or keris Sundang or do you teach all? How do they differ? Different styles of keris have many, many small variations, even varying from empu to empu. I doubt it’s possible to know them all. I am not an expert in kerisology, but I do know that the variation of the dapur is what needs to be taken into account when handling the keris for combat. I personally use my keris for spiritual purposes, and have yet to study keris fighting. I wish I could go to Guru Besar Jerry Jacobs’ school for the seminar this spring, because Pendekar Sanders will be teaching all these things then.
I also have to give hormat to Pak Ger Geisen, whom I know personally. It’s hard to know what title to use with Ger, because he is a PCP Guru (our representative in Holland), but he has attained high ranks in other Silat styles as well- I believe he is known as a Pendekar in some styles.
Anyway, I have to credit him for partly opening my eyes to the depth of keris knowledge when I was in Rotterdam, concerning Ilmu and the various shapes and patterns of the pamur. He has forgotten more about the keris than you will ever know. He literally wrote the book on the keris. I suggest you contact him with such questions.

9. Do you think that your ellaborations on 'elements' and ilmu on PCP reflect some sort of 'dogmatism'? ... I mean, in chemistry class 30 years ago I was taught that water is NOT and element, and neither is AIR, FIRE or the EARTH....‘Dogma’ in this sense refers to a codified, inflexible set of religious ideas or ideology which are applied to all contexts. If you think the elements we speak of are to be found on Mendeleev’s periodic table of elements, then you are indeed a misguided fool, or just like to play ignorant. If you need more information about elemental Ilmu, join our art, or seek out Pendekar Sartono directly.

There you go... nine questions for now which I sincerely hope you might answer and that your answers do serve to clear the controversy and bring understanding and peace.
So Bram, I think we have been patient and tolerant with you long enough, but I doubt this will result in peace, because you have another agenda, which is transparent to any thinking person.
If you do desire peace, I apologize and retract every negative thing I have ever said towards you. The choice is yours.
If not, you owe us a few answers in return…
So let me ask:
1.    Is it true that our student Gavin knocked you down in Camden, and that you have had an irrational hatred for us ever since? Why have I heard this same story from multiple sources?
2.    Who are your teachers?
3.    What styles do you practice?
4.    What certificates or titles do you hold?
5.    Why do you consider yourself the judge and arbiter of Silat authenticity?
6. Where can we go on the internet to see pictures of you, or you training?
7. Do you think the habit of smoking is an example of a good Muslim, or a healthy, serious practitioner of Silat?

-Russian Silat
« Last Edit: 14/12/2007 22:37 by Russian Silat »

Ranggalana

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #6 on: 14/12/2007 23:28 »

Dear Bram,

I think you misunderstood- this Q&A is not meant to hold dialogue with you....
1.    Is it true that our student Gavin knocked you down in Camden, and that you have had an irrational hatred for us ever since? Why have I heard this same story from multiple sources?
2.    Who are your teachers?
3.    What styles do you practice?
4.    What certificates or titles do you hold?
5.    Why do you consider yourself the judge and arbiter of Silat authenticity?
6. Where can we go on the internet to see pictures of you, or you training?
7. Do you think the habit of smoking is an example of a good Muslim, or a healthy, serious practitioner of Silat?

-Russian Silat



I did misunderstand, sorry Foydor, or is it Ted Walls?

Answers are simple, Mr Marine, Sir!

1. True, I asked Gavin to demonstrate a take down on me...
 Not True that I hate you. You hear it again and again because you think it is something to discredit me. 

2. I have had many teachers. In kerisology, I started aprenticeship at around 5 years of age to BRAY. K. Prijosoesilo, my Grandmother. In silat I began with my father he is a SH person. I also studied under Pepen Sabur, Rendra, and others. Masuk alam buka baju.

3. I do not practise a style. I am learning PGB Bangau Putih but I am not very clever so I learn slow, but I know it is more about content than style. I began studying it around 1983 and will still studying it for as long as I can because I love it.

4. I hold Ijazah SD Negeri Sekaralas, SMP XII Keb Baru Jaksel, SMA Kolese de Britto and ijazah nggambar dhewek from : Akademi Ilmu Tai Jadi Emas Pusaka Leluhur Subur Gemi Nastiti. I am Guru Besar in Akademi Ilmu Tai Jadi Emas Pusaka Leluhur Subur Gemi Nastiti.

5. I don't consider myself to be judge of anything. Kang Eric is judge, wasit. Not me. I am lare angen, cedhak watu adoh ratu, or in French, cangkeman ora urusan! If I come across as arroganting the position of judge to you it must be because of my arrogance and small mindedness, and for that I apologize.

6. If you want to do detective work on me, please feel welcome, I don't put my name in google, thank you very much!

7. The habit of smoking is a very bad habit and very difficult to stop especially if like myself, one began smoking at around age 5 to 6 ....... Many Jawanese smoke, and it is bad, and I am one of those bad habited people. According to records we all  began to smoke at the funeral for Panembahan Senopati. My children don't smoke, alhamdulillah. I am still trying to stop. My brother taught me to smoke, he posts here some times! He has now succeded in stopping and I still am smoking! Even though I konw it is bad to me, it is that enslaving!

Looking forward to a more constructive discussion with you, Sir!

Salam hangat atawa warm regards ,

Ranggalana

atawa Lare Angen

atawa Kiai Carita

Gelar Bandara Raden Mas Mangku Mbokayu Sing Mambu Nggositu.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Russian Silat

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #7 on: 15/12/2007 00:42 »
If you truly look forward to constructive exchange, without baiting us, you can count on reciprocity from our end.

But don't expect carte blanche to continuously try to discredit us in oblique, subtle ways.

If you extend a genuine olive branch, we will accept it.

I would rather learn here than argue.

-Russian Silat

Russian Silat

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #8 on: 15/12/2007 00:59 »
And further...

I would respectfully suggest that whatever expertise you have in Silat and Indonesian culture would be better put to use in TEACHING those who are willing to learn, instead of creating conflict.

-Russian Silat

Russian Silat

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #9 on: 15/12/2007 03:36 »
Hello Bram,

In the spirit of sharing, so that I can better understand you, would you be able to provide an English translation for the following:

PGB Bangau Putih

Ijazah SD Negeri Sekaralas, SMP XII Keb Baru Jaksel, SMA Kolese de Britto and ijazah nggambar dhewek from : Akademi Ilmu Tai Jadi Emas Pusaka Leluhur Subur Gemi Nastiti. I am Guru Besar in Akademi Ilmu Tai Jadi Emas Pusaka Leluhur Subur Gemi Nastiti.

lare angen, cedhak watu adoh ratu,

And moderators...

If this is to be the beginning of a real peace between the two camps, perhaps its time to remove the 'Cimande makes you go mmmmm' thread, as you had planned last week.

Best Regards,

Russian Silat



Ranggalana

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #10 on: 15/12/2007 11:00 »
Hello Bram,

In the spirit of sharing, so that I can better understand you, would you be able to provide an English translation for the following:

PGB Bangau Putih

Ijazah SD Negeri Sekaralas, SMP XII Keb Baru Jaksel, SMA Kolese de Britto and ijazah nggambar dhewek from : Akademi Ilmu Tai Jadi Emas Pusaka Leluhur Subur Gemi Nastiti. I am Guru Besar in Akademi Ilmu Tai Jadi Emas Pusaka Leluhur Subur Gemi Nastiti.

lare angen, cedhak watu adoh ratu,

And moderators...

If this is to be the beginning of a real peace between the two camps, perhaps its time to remove the 'Cimande makes you go mmmmm' thread, as you had planned last week.

Best Regards,

Russian Silat

Ted,

English translation for free:

PGB Bangau Putih: Union of Body Movement White Crane
Ijazah SDN Sekaralas: Certificate from SDN Sekaralas Primary School
Ijazah SMP XII : Certificate from SMP XII Keb Baru Jaksel Junior High School
Ijazah SMA Kolese de Britto: Certificate from de Britto College High School
Ijazah Nggambar Dhewek Akademi Ilmu Tai Jadi Emas Subur Gemi Nastiti: Self Drawn Certificate from the Fertile, Thrifty, and Precise, Academy of Shit become Gold.

Cedhak watu: Close to stone
Adoh Ratu: Distant to kings
Lare angen: Herd Boy.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Russian Silat

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #11 on: 15/12/2007 15:38 »
Ha!  [lucu] Thanks.

The man who refuses to take himself too seriously deserves some respect.

-Russian Silat

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #12 on: 15/12/2007 21:30 »
.....
6. Don't you think that Sanders was being rude when he says 'look at me being so good that I baffle these Indonesian pesilat who can't figure what I am doing?' when he comments about the vids about his playing with Alm. Suwanda and Pak Made Bawa?
Pendekar Sanders never said that, that is pure inflammatory slander. Putting those words into quotes is “yellow journalism”. Are you a yellow journalist? If you do indeed have a background in journalism, then this is intentional on your part.
Indeed, the misguided power of words is the only power open to you, which is why you try to exercise it so much. Your silat was certainly ineffective against us, and you still refuse to meet us face to face, so words are your only option.
But if this is indeed your honest impression of what he said, which I doubt, then it is all a big misunderstanding, and I apologize for what I said above.
....
-Russian Silat


Ted Walls,

Sanders words, copied and pasted from his website, are these:

Look at the tapes of me moving with some of the highest ranked Indonesians and look closely at their eyes and body language. I had to slow down what I did as the movements were very unique to them and they were somewhat baffled. Not to take anything away from these great Indonesian masters it is just that the way the art moved was different from anything that they had encountered and it made it difficult for them to counter. They moved very well but anytime I wanted to land a blow it was there. Every time they stuck out a hand or leg I hit it constantly. Play then in slow motion and watch how many times I just placed my hand or foot on them gently but they were wide open. Believe me these guys were not appeasing me they were really trying to figure out what was going on and after we worked out the asked me - "Where did you learn to move like that?"

Yours truly,

Ranggalana.

batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Russian Silat

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #13 on: 15/12/2007 22:48 »
Hello Bram,

I believe that these tapes are at the heart of the controversey for some, and although I thought we were done with this, I will take the time to respond.

It should be understood that everytime our teachers and students go to Indonesia, they perform very, very well against what they meet there, and that the friends we make are usually keen to trade knowledge with us.

It is inevitable that some will resent this fact, and I agree that it should be handled as diplomatically as possible [top].

Please note that Pendekar Sanders gives hormat and refers to these 'Indonesian pesilat ???' (your yellow journalistic words) as "great Indonesian Masters" [top].

I see that he said "not to take anything away from these great Indonesian masters", which means "I do not wish to insult the great ability of these men".

As far as the rest of the text, I do believe it represents realistic and fair commentary on the content of the clip. They were posted on the website because certain individuals in cyberspace claimed over and over again that we had no real ability...

If the truth is a crime, then we stand guilty as charged. Do you think that if we just let these tapes speak for themselves, there would be no controversy? Because we really wish to offend no one, merely answer critics.

Best Regards,

Russian Silat

or "Fyodor Denisovitch Stenov" if you wish to use my full name.

P.S. Pendekar Sanders has called others "great Indonesian masters", and you think this smacks of disrespect. But what has Penekar Sanders been called by some of the posters on this site? I posit that he deserves the same level of respect he has given to others.

This is just my personal belief...
« Last Edit: 16/12/2007 03:56 by Russian Silat »

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Re: Q&A
« Reply #14 on: 16/12/2007 06:46 »
* useless quote removed by moderator *

@ Russian Silat or Mr X-US Marine,
(-mod message: why calling extra names Bram, this is abusive behaviour, read our rules again
click here /mod message)

Of course if you let the tapes speak for themselves there would be no controversy about the comments on the tape, and Sanders would not look like he was "mlebu njedhing alok pesing", or "is allowed in to the bathroom, and comes out saying it smells of urine..." which is a traditional Jawanese saying. I don't know if there is a Sundanese equivalent, but there are many Sundanese on this forum, and to me, their silence speaks volumes about what they are thinking and feeling.

I only brought up the text from your website because of your comments about yellow jurnalism. But what I wrote more or less sums up what Sanders says, doesn't it? If you call someone a master and then say that you baffle him, what does that mean of the master?

But, lets let this all rest. I want to go and contemplate on my actions. I have finished commenting on your website for now. I hope that my comments will serve to build a better dialogue and understanding between silat players. If they have appeared to be otherwise, please accept my apologies. I do not lie when I tell you that your school would benefit alot from listening to the critics here with an open mind.

TEXT REMOVED
Bram: WHY do you start abusing yet another family, they are not even here ?
Part removed by moderator


I do not hate you, your site, or your teacher. I understand that in this ongoing argument there have been times of hurt and anger, and if I ever lashed out in hurt and anger or hatred, and thus causing the same, I apologize. I stand by most of my comments about Sanders and his website, keris, kujang, kejawen and if what I say appears to be contrary to the teachings of your teacher, it may be just that in a kebatinan sense we are on opposite sides.

You think that you are on a side that holds dear ancient ways of kerawuhan of the spirits of old masters, and that I represent the new, Islam oriented way, that relies on God only. This is not quite right, as the ancients also were knowledgeable of monotheism. The truth is that since the ancent times these two oposing schools of thought existed. Before Islam came, for example, there was in Sunda land, agami Sunda Wiwitan, which is a monotheistic, body culture belief system, not animist, but wholistic and monotheistic. Ask Kang Yana from PD USA to elaborate on this for you.

It is not true that Islam in Jawa has taken away the animals from silat. You are making sweeping generalizations that a doctoral candidate should avoid. For an example, look at Tapak Suci Muhammadiyah, the school that wears red baju silat. They have many animal moves, and there is no problem. Please note that Muhammadiyah are strongly influenced by the Saudi, Wahabbi movement. You can't get more literalist than the Wahabbi, now, can you?

In PGB Bangau Putih there are many animals, and many gods as well. Most of us are Muslims, and we have no problem. The pursuit of knowledge should take you further than the shores of China. But we strive to be guided by the Breath of God, as the Real I, even when we are doing the dragon, for example. We think that rather than be depending of a spirit of someone or something that you don't really even know, it is better to trust in discipline and surrender to Allah.

In my village here, spirit possession was once childs play - though it is now getting rare. When I was a child we used to play in the sawah in the dry season. We would summon spirits of wild boars or tigers and would have great fun... very scary! At the end of the day we would get the possesed out of trance and we would all go home.

Kolik, kolik, teka'a mrene
Tak suguhi sega menyan
Lawuhe kembang kuburan
Teka'a mrene'a dadi'a nang kene
Dadi Celeng, celeng dhegleng
Dadi Macan, macan loreng
Aja pati-pati lunga yen durung dibalang
Lemah njaratan....

Ning nong ning nong goook, gooook,
Ning nong ning gong, kolik, kolik!


Kolik, Kolik, you are summoned
I will serve you frankincese rice,
with graveyard flowers to go with it,
Come here, posses here,
Become a wild boar, a mad boar,
Become a tiger, a stripy tiger
and don't you dare leave until you have been pelted
with a lump of cemetery earth.

One or two boys would kneel on the ground and an other would be the trance master. The rest of us would be making the music with our mouths, ning nong ning gong, kolik, kolik.... The possesed would chase everyone with their eyes closed... but they would rely on the sound of the other kids going ning nong ning gong to know where they were ... it was like a very scary blind man's buff. Everyone would be clutching a peice of soil from the cemetery just in case the possesed got them. The possesed would change physically to seem like the animal they were meant to be when they were possesed.

Some people here a frightened by spirit possesion, but no one here regards it as a high ilmu. It is not, it is child's play. If you speak about it as a high ilmu you will meet a loud but clear silence, I think. A polite way here, to disagree with someone. I spent a long time of my adult life in the UK so I will talk to you like this even though my seniors here tell me not to bother because you will not understand, having been taught the opposite.

Possesed by a tiger spirit you might break a neck, bite an HIV positive guy's arteies, and generally go beyond reasonable force. Possesed by the Real I, like Walt Whitman, you will be 'singing the song of my self'... it is up to you to choose the most humane way of getting over a physical confrontation. Let me just warn you, that possesion is very popular amongst performers, but it is NOT a higly respected ilmu here at all. However, if you do know how to be possesed by a spirit, you can easily get possesed by your Real Self it is just a more advanced class.

La hawla wa la kuwwata illa billah... mboten wonten kekiyatan kejawi saking Kersaning Pengeran. There is no power but from Allah.

PS. Thank you for the respect of calling me a jihadi, however, I feel that I do not deserve the title. Though I am a Muslim, my background is abangan. In my family there are devout Muslims, there are abangan Muslims, there are Buddhists, Roman Catholics, and Protestants, and also there are many Kejawen followers. The silat I study has Budhhist and Taoist roots, my Guru Besar is Catholic. My family members are from many nations: Jawanese, Chinese, Arab, Persian, Indian, Scottish, Danish, Irish, French, English .... Indonesia has always been a melting pot of cultures and body fluids.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.

« Last Edit: 16/12/2007 15:23 by EricB »
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

 

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