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Author Topic: Reasons for Silat friendship  (Read 17101 times)

Gajah

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #15 on: 24/12/2007 21:30 »
Guys, must every thread morph into the same discussion? :-[

C'mon, I think everyone is now more than aware that certian organisiations either disagree, or simply do not believe each other with regard to a number of issues.

It's no wonder there is such a negative image of silat in the West. Because if anyone does a simple search they will find the same old issues on every forum. These same old issues usualy stem from a small number of same old organisations based in the USA.

Now forgive me for being blunt, but the majority of silat players in the West are not involved with either PCP or the De Thours family.

However, we all have to suffer a bad reputation that stems from this infighting from the US. Harsh but true. This reflects on all silat and not just the protagonists.

I find it undignified, to say the least. Grown men argueing about 'who's the best' and so on. Like schoolboys in a playground.

Perhaps its time for those involved to reach a level of maturity in which they can look beyond their own little sphere and understand the damage they are causing to silat as a whole?

Anyway, selamat hari Natal semua :)

« Last Edit: 24/12/2007 21:33 by Gajah »

EricB

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #16 on: 24/12/2007 21:34 »
first of all: Happy holidays to you too Fyodor :)

in your reply to D you stated: I quote
Quote
NO ONE, and let me repeat NO ONE outside of Indonesia has the level of documented credibility that William Sanders has. He has documentation from sources inside the USA, from Pendekar Banten, from Cimande Village, and from the Indonesian government.

Although I'm not a pendekar I received a lot of credibility and certificates also:
- from my Perguruan
- from IPSI and Persilat
- from Pesaka
- from the European Pencak Silat Federation
- from NPSB (Dutch Pencak Silat Board)
- from several National Pencak Silat Board in other countries in Europe
- from more then one Ambassadors at the Indonesian Embassy in Holland
- from the Minister Of Cultural Affairs from the Republic of Indonesia

- I didn't receive anything from the USA, I've never been there  [kecut]

This is just to mention that there are a lot of people out there who received those kind of things.

I know there are a lot of people who have even more of this stuff, does it make them better ? ............ I really don't know  ::)
I cannot fight an wild animal with all my papers and certificates  :D

I don't want to compare myself to anyone in this beautiful world, I received respect from some, I received question-marks from others,
In the end I can still sleep fine and feel OK, also proud of what I have achieved in this crazy world of Pencak Silat

During the years things are changing, nobody can avoid that, but do we really do need to avoid it ?



This message is just to show that papers are not so important in this world,
In my perguruan the basic is Cimande, do we have all the moves of the late Mbak Khair in our game, I don't think so, at least I'm not sure of it.

I have been to Cimande on several occasions, I have seem similarities and differences, but what is the original movement ?
I was trained over-there by the late H. Nazzarudin, also direct ancestor of Mbak Khair (btw his original name is Chairudin) do you see the similarity ?

Another point: in Indonesia people make it an art to make family trees, there is always a connection.
If you see those family trees everybody of any importance is somehow related to Muhammed the Prophet.

In West-Java everyone is somehow related to Syarif Hidayatullah (Sunan Gunung Jati) one of the Wali Songgo.
He again is the grandson of Sri Baduga (the first Maharadja of the Padjadjaran Kingdom)
And the son of Syarif Hidayatullah son is Seh Maulana Hassundin (the first Sultan of Banten)

And what do you think: Syarif Hidayatullah again is a direct ancestor of Mohammad the Prophet.

so the tree is there, just maintain the soil it is standing in  :)


With this small explanation of history in West-Java I hope to give something to think about,
also Indonesian people will be saying "sombong amat" watching someone stating:
NO ONE outside of Indonesia has the level of documented credibility that William Sanders has
It is their heritage, it is their culture, it is their pride.
You can translate "sombong amat" into "too conceited"

If Indonesian people are approached with these things first and then are offered friendship, I think it is obvious the majority refuses the handshake.

Well, so far my comments

At last; let me tell you this, I'm happy with the way PCP members are acting now on our forum, maybe with some help we can learn from each-other

The future will tell.

Wassalam, Eric

D

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #17 on: 24/12/2007 21:40 »
Michael Lee,

The subject of Sanders certificate and pendekarship in silat has come up several times in various forums, either in detail or passing. There was a detailed discussion on this forum not long ago as you know.
I did not give my input to that discussion at that time and the only reason I am doing so now is because of the many boastful claims I have read of recent by PCP members. You guys talk a lot about your lineage, your heritage and your master.

 I said I’m one of those who dose not believe Sanders is a ligimate pendekor. I guess I should give you the reason for my disbelief, it’s only natural that you would want to know why.
 Firstly I want to say that I do not base my conclusion on anything that has been wrote on this or any other forum discussions, rather I base my conclusion on information I received from an Indonesian source with ties to the School Sanders claims pendekorship from.
 Secondly I can only speak of the pendekorship Sanders received in Cimande Bantin. I don’t have any knowledge of any other aspect of Sanders training or awards/titles he may have received elsewhere.
If I am correct it is this certificate obtained in Cimande Bantin which makes Sanders a Pendekor?

Some years ago I made contact with an Indonesian gentleman and over a period of time I got to know him well. I had on several occasions discussed various aspects of Indonesian culture and he helped me greatly with many things I wanted to know, a very knowledgeable man he was indeed.
 I have to be careful with what I say here because I do not wish to drop him in it. After knowing this man for some time I asked him if he knew anything about Silat, he seemed to know everything else and he was an Indonesian afterall.
 I tould him I was thinking of going on a trip to Indonesia and stopping by to some silat schools whilst there. What he told me was very surprising, I think maybe he thought I was seeking a qualification to teach rather than just general interest in seeing some Silat.
He told me that he was connected to the inner members of Cimande Bantin, all of whom have senior positions or who hold the title of Pendekor in that art. I was told that he could introduce me to these people and it would be possible for me to practice with them.  What he told me next somewhat shocked me, I was told that since he knew me fairly well and trusted me that with a short period of training (a month at most) I would be awarded a certificate (actually I was guaranteed the Certificate). Not just any certificate but the title of Pendekor. I was told that I would be the second westerner to ever be awarded this and that it was done before and could be done again!

The discussion did not advance any further because I told my friend I was not interested in this piece of paper, had no wish to teach and therefore had no use for the qualification. I did not discuss the cost for obtaining this but have no doubt it would not have come cheap.

It makes me wonder though, he said I would be the second westerner to obtain this, who was the first?
You can imaging that since this experience if a westerner introduces himself as a Pendekor and points to a framed certificate and a few photos on the wall it doesn’t have much weight with me. Fact is I could hold the title of Pendekor too!

I predict your next question, who is the individual who could have obtained this for you? My answer to that is that is for my knowledge only.  I am out of contact with him for some time now however he helped me much and I won’t drop him in it.

 I predict your response to my unwillingness to divulge the identity of the individual, you will say everything I have said is therefore false and untrue.
 I will answer that in advance also, accuse me of being someone who dose not speak the truth if it pleases you, I will not waist my time trying to convince others. I know what I was told, I know it is true and it is good enough for me.

As to the question you asked about my knowledge/involvement in martial arts. I think you are asking me of my authority to speak in this matter. I have done various martial arts fore some time. I would say my knowledge is not perfect by no means but neither is anyone elses. In the end of the day it’s not important what I have done and with whom, I am not the one who is announcing himself as a great pendekor.


Regards

D

Michael Lee

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #18 on: 24/12/2007 22:47 »
Darren,

I few points for clarification and some responses for you….

Sanders did indeed obtain a certificate and title of Pendekar from Pendekar Banten in 1987.  This certificate and title were obtained after over half a dozen trips to Indonesian between 1983 and 1987.  They were also obtained after he had gone through several weeks of various testings that included things like meditating by himself overnight in both cemeteries and in the jungle as well as countless tests of his physical and magikal skills.  Further, they were given to him because of his 15 years of solid training and exclusive devotion to Cimande style Pencak Silat. 

Though I was only a teenage at the time and had not ever heard of Cimande or William Sanders (I was busy doing Tae Kwon Do collegiate wrestling), I know the man now and know for a fact that he's an honest person.  So even if he didn’t have all the certificates, photos and videos, I know he’s an honest guy so therefore I believe him.  Oh yeah, there’s also that little thing about him being the most extraordinary martial artist I’ve ever laid my eyes on.  Of course there are people with more skills than him, but he's pretty damned good! 

This is not to say that he's more than a man, because that’s all he is, just a man.  I don’t put him on a pedestal or worship the ground he walks on.  However, I do have a tremendous amount of respect for him as both a person and martial artist.  I also greatly admire his devotion to Pencak Silat and the constant respect he pays to his Indonesian Masters.

It's unfortunate that someone told you that you could obtain a pendekarship for a fee from Pendekar Banten.  The first question I have for you is not who this person was (though I'm sure many of the other members of Pendekar Banten on this forum might want to know), rather, it's how do you know he was legitimately connected with Pendekar Banten? 

It’s quite easy for me to image a huckster telling you that if you paid HIM a fee, he would get you all the credentials that you asked for.  And that says nothing about the authenticity of the credentials that you received.  What I’m saying here is be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  Pendekar Banten is a well respected organization and your statements impugn not just William Sanders, but all of its members.

I will also add that Sanders has been given the title of Pendekar from other sources as well.  Again, I won’t relist them all here as they are available on his well documented website and in other threads. 

As you said D, I don't really care if you believe me or not because I know what I'm saying is true.

Michael
« Last Edit: 24/12/2007 23:07 by Michael Lee »

Michael Lee

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #19 on: 25/12/2007 02:55 »
Darren, I just re-read your post and I have a question for you.  You stated that the un-named man in Indonesia offered you a certificate from Cimande Banten.  Just so we're clear, did you mean Cimande Banten or Pendekar Banten?  Pendekar Banten is the organization that we are affiliated with.  I'm not even sure if there is an organization called Cimande Banten but if there is, and that's the organization that you are talking about, then this can be chalked up to a misunderstanding. 

If it's not, and when you say Cimande Banten you are referring to the organization Pendekar Banten, then we are back at square one. 

I'll also add that there are many other members of this forum who are also members of Pendekar Banten.  So if you are calling into question the crediability of Pendekar Banten, then you are also impugning all of it's members.

Michael

EricB

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #20 on: 25/12/2007 03:26 »
I like to have some comments on my latest post in this thread :(

http://sahabatsilat.com/forum/index.php?topic=409.msg6923#msg6923

I took me at least half an hour to write it :O

Russian Silat

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #21 on: 25/12/2007 04:07 »
Darren, just because someone tried to scam you in Indonesia, this has nothing to do with Pendekar Sanders.

As far as I know, he paid absolutely no fee for his title, and this is pure, unsubstantiated slander on your part.

You pull your story out of thin air, and ask everyone to trust you.

We offer multiple sources of documentation.

Hmmmmmm.......

You attack the credibility not only of a renowned and accomplished master, but also of Pendekar Banten!

People like you are a blight on the art of Pencak Silat.

D, you go too far when you attack the credibility of Pendekar Banten. This is truly low and disrespectful.

Someone tried to scam you- so what? Think of it this way: a person graduated from a respectable university, then later it is discovered that some slime bag con-artist is making fake degrees from that same institution and then selling them to wanabees.

Who is at fault here, the dirtbag who offered the fake degree, or the person who actually received the real degree?

Anyone with an ounce of character can come to the correct conclusion. I personally would not associate with such scam artists, and if I were you I would want to expose him, so he doesn’t try to disgrace Pendekar Banten by actually selling such bogus degrees.

From the tone of your post, it sounds as if you are on intimate terms with this unethical scumbag, and that he has performed services for you in the past. Hmmm…

If this guy needs some business, you should contact Jeff Davidson- I heard he paid Tuhon Gaje a nice sum of money to make him Michigan representative of Pekiti Tersia. He might be willing to buy a fake Pendekar Banten certificate. The photocopied fake he showed me back in the 90’s doesn’t look too convincing anymore.

Anyone who offers fake degrees has no ethics, and in no way reflects the true heritage of great Pencak Silat masters such as Pendekars Jafri, Sirait, and Mama.

My advice to you D, is instead of casting stones at people who actually get real qualifications from real people, find better teachers for yourself, and don’t associate with people who offer you bogus credentials (and then protect their anonymity out of ‘respect’!). If you lay down with dogs, you will wake up with fleas.

Are you really calling into question the legitimacy of Pendekar Banten? This is unbelievable. Many people, including the moderators of this board, are connected to them.

From what you say about this one individual, I can see now why you won’t talk about who your other teachers and credentials are.

-Russian Silat



Eric B, I would like to apologise for my earlier boasting. I spoke without knowing the facts- indeed there may be other people outside Indonesia with the same or better qualifications.

It is true that my culture is different, and people are encouraged to be proud of their accomplishments. But when speaking to people of a different culture, their sensitivities should be thought of.

I'm just tired of people like D making trouble for no good reason, and perhaps I am sometimes too reactionary.

There is no way I can let lies go unanswered, however much I want the dialogue to be positive.

The answer is to stop negative, harmful, useless in-fighting, and get on with building friendship, learning and promoting.

Some ignorant people still do not get it.

Regards,

Russian Silat
« Last Edit: 25/12/2007 04:36 by Russian Silat »

D

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #22 on: 25/12/2007 04:51 »
No mistake was made and it cant be chalked over or covered up. The individual I am speaking of was not trying to scam me. Have no doubt in your mind, everything I said is accurate 100%

I would have to sift through my email record but I'm fairly sure its the same organisation. I remember it was in Serang City, ring any bells?
Secondly remember he said I would be the second Westerner to obtain the title of Pendekor in Cimande Banten, do you know of another western Pendekor other than Sanders who claims Pendekorship in Silat Banten?

BTW, he told me he knew Sanders well!

D

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #23 on: 25/12/2007 05:03 »
Sorry Russian Silat you keep on mentioning that I am disrespecting Banten Silat, I get the feeling your hoping to get some help from those involved with Silat Banten ,someone to jump in and save your ass! Maybe you should PM them?

mantis

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #24 on: 25/12/2007 09:25 »
I am enjoying the information posted by Russian Silat . D , no disrespect but with all your wild unfounded , i think its here , some where accusations it would appear if anyone needs help , its you . Also isnt it spelled Pendekar ? I dont think such posts should even be allowed without full supporting documentation. Hell , I can say I have all kinds of dirt on D,  he did all kinds of shady things , his teacher also has a big stake in making Sanders look bad ,I even  know  who that is also , just cant say who , what , where or why  , Honest its here . HONEST YOU MUST BELIEVE ME !!!!! hehehe.  I guese my post should be removed also , along with his . I saw a fake rolex for sale at the swap meet , I heard all the guys who had the real ones were ditching them after they heard that , seeing as that made thier watches SO less valuable ,  NOT.

DasaMan

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #25 on: 25/12/2007 13:51 »
So Aikido is very popular in Moscow right now. I told her that Silat is much more interesting and effective, but she would rather go learn some boring, ineffective stuff just because it happens to be widely-known.

Now that, my friend, is not kosher. I am not an aikidoka myself, but I know exactly how to make Aikido effective, just because I learn a family of it's parent art, the so called aiki-jujutsu.

Yes, not many aikidoka today can apply their trades on the street or the ring, but you my friend, should not dis aikido as a whole because of that.

For all I care, all those fancy schmancy H2H bladed empty hand whatever you guys call martial arts can never hold a candle to my sawed off 12 gauge shotgun when you meet me in a dark alley. Note that.

Russian Silat

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #26 on: 25/12/2007 15:06 »
Hello Dasa Man,

Yes, I've seen some good Aikido, and in fact we use an Aikido studio to train in three nights per week.

But the way they teach it here in Moscow-- it doesn't do the art justice.

You're right- I have no business saying anything bad about another art. Thanks for the reminder. I have modified my earlier post to remove the offensive passage.

So long as people like D are allowed to hijack positive, constructive threads, and are allowed to slander masters, esteemed organizations, and offer absolutely no supporting evidence- well, so long as this keeps happening all potential for some good result will have to wait.

Again, Pendekar Sanders didn't pay any money whatsoever for his title, and this was in 1987- twenty years ago. There was no e-mail or internet back then, so if you check your e-mail log from 1987, I think you'll have a problem.

Unless D can offer some concrete evidence for his slander against Pendekar Sanders and Pendekar Banten, I suggest he be banned, so that we can move forward in constructive dialogue.

It's obvious that this guy is just making up a bunch of lies, and is out to cause trouble.

Best Regards,

Russian Silat
« Last Edit: 25/12/2007 15:54 by Russian Silat »

EricB

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #27 on: 25/12/2007 15:18 »
@ D: I suggest you tell us who you are in real life

We know nothing about you, but you seem to be knowing everything from our members.
Another thing: it is so easy to call names and slender people on a public forum by staying anonymous,
If you don't like Sanders and PCP that is your problem, deal with it or take a hike.

This is flaming behaviour and we simply don't allowe it here on this forum !

You earned your first official warning
« Last Edit: 25/12/2007 15:22 by EricB »

EricB

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #28 on: 25/12/2007 15:24 »
@ other members who have something against "D"

It is up to the crew either we BAN a member or not, asking for Banning a person is a little weak don't you think ;)

We/you have the possibility and/or maturity to debate in a civilized way, so lets keep it this way :)

regards Eric

Michael Lee

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Re: Reasons for Silat friendship
« Reply #29 on: 25/12/2007 18:43 »
Point taken Eric!

Happy Holidays everyone!

Michael

 

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