Reasons for Silat friendship

[SundaWarrior]

Happy Holidays everyone,

Michael,

Although I agree that D should provide evidence of his claims. I don't think it is proper to ban him unless he starts to get unruly. 

D,

If you are going to make claims, you should be ready to back them with hard evidence. 

Salam,
Nicholas

[pekir]

first of all: Happy holidays to you too Fyodor

in your reply to D you stated: I quote

NO ONE, and let me repeat NO ONE outside of Indonesia has the level of documented credibility that William Sanders has. He has documentation from sources inside the USA, from Pendekar Banten, from Cimande Village, and from the Indonesian government.

Although I'm not a pendekar I received a lot of credibility and certificates also:
- from my Perguruan
- from IPSI and Persilat
- from Pesaka
- from the European Pencak Silat Federation
- from NPSB (Dutch Pencak Silat Board)
- from several National Pencak Silat Board in other countries in Europe
- from more then one Ambassadors at the Indonesian Embassy in Holland
- from the Minister Of Cultural Affairs from the Republic of Indonesia

- I didn't receive anything from the USA, I've never been there 

...................

The future will tell.

Wassalam, Eric

Hi Eric,

I would be a big supporter of all of us agreeing on not making such claims in the future because it makes all of us look like a bunch of weirdos. Our world should not be about certifications or any kind of paper. It should be about appreciation for the way we go about teaching or training our art to the best of our knowledge and maintaining a certain modesty in our presentation to the outer world.

just my 2 cents

Pekir

[EricB]

Hello Patrick

I agree with you, it is not that I'm making a claim here, you know me and I'm NOT that kind of person.
My main goal is to get the truth out and sometimes I like to compare,
things I received are not so important to me, that's why I put the statement in my previous message also; I quote:

This is just to mention that there are a lot of people out there who received those kind of things.

I know there are a lot of people who have even more of this stuff, does it make them better ? ............ I really don't know 
I cannot fight an wild animal with all my papers and certificates 

I don't want to compare myself to anyone in this beautiful world, I received respect from some, I received question-marks from others,
In the end I can still sleep fine and feel OK, also proud of what I have achieved in this crazy world of Pencak Silat

In normal life I always try to be modest, but sometimes my hart is speaking also.
What I want to achieve is that people who are to much focused/devoted on/to one teacher should open their eyes and do some research for themselves.

I did it also and a new world was opened for me, and it gave me a lot of happiness

with respect, Eric

[D]

If there is anyone acting with behaviour which sparks off conflict its those within PCP. Its quite simple really if you don’t agree that Sanders is a great pendekar and that PCP is the most deadly form of silat that can be found, including within Indonesia then its PCP’s job to paint a negative picture of you…….have I got that right guys, I think I have?

I am not the only one that has found dirt on this “esteemed organization” many have, and we are all wrong isn’t that right boys!

Tell me how hard it is to be genuinely given the title of pendekar (by an Indonesian authority). Tell me, do you think it could be obtained by a few trips here and there. If you believe that, well your lost.

You ask me for proof! No I ask you for proof.  Your proof is the certificate in question maybe a photograph and other meaningless and easily obtained items. Maybe I should have paid for that certificate and that piece of paper would have been my proof, my morals are better then that though. Looks like you put a high value on paper!

You paint an image of Sanders as a humble man under much burden (heavy is the burden for the one who carries the light!) but tell me dose a humble man go around boasting and making big claims? Is that your version of what it is to be humble?

Sanders as the highest qualified, that’s a joke there are others with a far higher level of skill in Silat!

It is people like me, Bram etc who give silat a bad name by “fighting”, people like us should all be banned or silenced! That’s right you would like that, wouldn’t you. Over on MAP whenever someone would say something negative you would get your moderator friend to lock the thread or ban the writer. Why don’t you approach this forum and see if you cant get one of your boys in.
Actually its people like you who give silat a bad name with your ridiculous claims, boasting and deadly techniques. When people see your videos on youtube  I wonder how many think its “deadly”

A sinking ship, every time someone blows a hole in your hull you scurry to plug it up and just when you think you stopped all  the leaks someone else blows another hole in your ship. Fighting is not among the silat community, don’t try to manipulate the facts. The majority of accusations are aimed at your school and its claims. Don’t try to rope in others by making it more general or widespread.

And the concrete proof that what I say is true, you tried to build bridges with others involved in silat but it wasn’t very successful, why do you think that is so?
 If you were the humble “esteemed” organization you say you are people would jump at the chance of a connection to your school.

Another thing, please clarify where the certificate was obtained, is it near Serang?


EricB,

 I did not make claims of knowing everyone and everything about individuals on this forum, I don’t know any of you. My statements are about Sanders and his certificate of pendekarship in Silat Bantin.

PCP say Sanders was tested in silat Bantin and they were so impressed with what they seen they made him a pendekar!
 I am most confused, how can you be tested in a particular style of Silat and receive a pendekarship in it without first studying that specific style for many, many years. So where did Sanders learn Silat Bantin then? He must have learnt it somewhere else first and was later tested in Indonesia. I hope the guys at PCP are not trying to say Sanders studied , was tested and received the title of pendekar in silat bantin within a month…….boy he must be good!

But then again, remember, I was offered the same thing!

Also it would seem that Sanders must be an expert (know every aspect and detail) in Silat Bantin since he holds the very highest rank obtainable within that style.

If one person points the finger its an accusation / slander, if two people point the finger, its coincidence, if several people point the finger, make up your own mind!

[mantis]

Hmmmmm , I think the three persons pointing here should be called a gang from the actions I am seeing !!!!. Or maybe one person posting under a bunch of names ?  Thought maybe i would read more cool stuff today , sigh ,more flack  from the same guy ?? a question , I could be wrong but didn't the moderators ,  both of them ask D to not post his unfounded allegations ? wasn't he given a warning or he would be banned ??   Didn't he just spit in the face of that warning here ? Wasn't he asked to fully identify  himself  because of his acid posts  ?    By not enforcing what was asked I fear another thread goes down to the thread pirates .  I did a google search on this Banten organization a while back , mostly newspaper articles in Bahasa came up,   but I recall the location did as well , does not seem hard for about anyone to find that , hey , I have big dirt on the President , guese what I actualy  know he is in washington DC , that was hard !!!!!

[D]

Mantis, I think everyone should look at your post record, its obvious you pro PCP

[mantis]

I happen to enjoy reading about all the positive silat posts here no matter who they are from , I also DONT want to waste my time reading political banter and slander no matter who that is addresed to when it is stopping positive type posts  I can learn from  . The PCP posts i have been reading qaulify as interesting material , yours seems to go , so far , in the other direction, on every thread .   it seems when ever the pcp guys get a good topic going some one , steps in with the monkey wrench to try and lead the topic of on a political , acid toned direction,  which I for one can do without . This does not seem to happen to the other positve posts I see from  other arts , so it seems there is a small group , hence my term gang , targeting pcp. If this were to happen with another group , stopping a positive dialog ,  I would post for them also .  Maybe others enjoy  such time wasting  conflict but since i dont ,  I have a right to say so. I am no  big expert in silat but I can read pretty well .  You seem to call for being on the up and up yet I found it odd you think the rules that seemd laid out pretty clear for you dont apply to you , you are above them ,  and you are free to still sow discord  as you choose .   I guese time will tell if you are  realy allowed to do so ,  even when warned and told  not to .  When I reminded you of that , the best you had was I am pro PCP ? ?    At this point I welcome any positive post about anything from anyone.

[Russian Silat]

Hi “D”, welcome back from celebrating Christmas…

You know, I was thinking, and darn it all, I HAVE seen a forged Pendekar Banten certificate before.

My former teacher and voodoo cult leader Jeff Davidson had a photocopy of Pendekar Sanders certificate from Pendekar Banten. He had forged himself a very cheap looking guru certificate by copying it and artfully applying his name in the place of honor. “D”avidson said that his first Pendekar, Pendkar Suwindi from Cibatog village, had made him a guru when he was 21 years old, after he had proven himself in several death matches fought in holes in the ground.

Davidson still has a copy of Sanders original certificate- which includes the names of the cities you mention in your post…..

Hmmmm…..

Its real simple “D”. The truth has nothing to hide. If what you maintain is true, then tell us all your real identity, the identities of your “sources” and provide concrete information.

Until you do, all of this is just pure slander and flaming.

-Russian Silat

P.S. I wonder who gave you your three good reputation points.

[Russian Silat]

"D" writes,

"If there is anyone acting with behaviour which sparks off conflict its those within PCP. Its quite simple really if you don’t agree that Sanders is a great pendekar and that PCP is the most deadly form of silat that can be found, including within Indonesia then its PCP’s job to paint a negative picture of you…….have I got that right guys, I think I have?"

 


You must be totally insane, and think that we are all idiots.

These were totally positive threads until you started your crap.

We have never painted a negative picture of any Master or style- I have even modified and apologised for posts which might have offended people who study other styles!

We were in the proccess of establishing some good dialogue with others, this is why it was so crucial for you to try to destroy it.

You will fail in your mission. We will continue to seek out respectful dialogue with others, we will tell the truth, and we will make friends and allies out of former enemies.

It is my greatest wish to learn and exchange information on this board, just as it is your greatest wish to sabotage anything positive.

Jeff Davidson needs to perpetuate the myth of PCP being frauds, because his new mythology about himself is based on this premise. Instead of being caught out on a decades worth of lies, losing his school, his students and all credibility, he tries to put his problems off on Sanders. It's easier for his image and ego to say "I left because I discovered my teacher was a fraud".

Therefore he cannot tolerate any positive and constructive position we may take. He has been working behind the scenes for the last few years to spread lies and rile people up.

All of this has been destructive for the Silat community as a whole, and it has to stop.

Criticize us all you want- but provide proof.

We've got nothing to hide.

Why do you continue to hide?

I look forward to stopping useless argumets, and communicating in friendship. It's a big task building my schools here in Russia, and I need all the positive energy I can get.

-Russian Silat

[Michael Lee]

I'm going to ignore D's continued negativity for the time being.  In this post, I want to focus on what Eric B. recently stated in his post that took him half an hour to create.   

Eric, I understood that when you listed your credentials the purpose was to show that credentials do not make someone better.  I couldn't agree more!

The only reason Pendekar Sanders credentials are talked about so much on this website is because people on this website ask questions about them.  Then, when the questions are answered, we are shouted down for talking so much about credentials!  Immediately following that, there have usually been more questions.   

Until I came onto this website last summer, I never had heard that much about any of Sanders's credentials, nor did I really care.  I was aware that he had some certificates on his website and I'd seen all the photos at one point or another, but I honestly didn't pay them much mind because as you said Eric, you can't fight with papers and certificates.  As I've stated before, even if Pendekar Sanders didn't have any of his certificates, photos or videos, I'd still be trusting and training with him.  He's an honest person and his Silat is a perfect fit for me.  It's fantastically combat effective and that's what attracts me most. 

Eric, you also talked about the idea of being open to other teachers.  I couldn’t agree with you more and neither could Sanders!  He's had countless teachers over the years.  Following his example, it's more than ok for me seek out new teachers and to learn new things.  Sanders only met Pendekar Mama a few years ago and incorporated his teachings into PCP.  And for the record, Pendekar Sanders is the 6th martial arts teacher I’ve had over the years.  One of the wonderful things about him that you may not know is that he’s not at all adverse to his students training elsewhere.  Indeed, if I were to find a teacher that had something I liked that PCP didn’t have, Pendekar Sanders would not only encourage me to learn it, but he would probably be banging down my door to learn it himself!  An example is the Silat of Richard Debordes.  Sanders says nothing but great things about him and his Silat and has encouraged me to seek him out if I desire.  And I do desire! 

We are not so close minded as some may think.

Another thought I want to comment on is this idea of Silat being for free in some places.  I’ve been told that many teachers in Indonesia don’t accept money for instruction in their Silat and that I should seek out such people.  That would be wonderful!  However in order for me to get over to Indonesia, airfare is in the neighborhood of $2,000, plus accommodations, plus food expense, plus costs of being away from home and work.  When you add it all up, a trip over to Indonesia lasting several weeks to a month, would cost me in the neighborhood of at least $3000, maybe upwards of $5000.  If I wanted to bring home any antiques or other souveniers, the costs can quickly escalate.  King Tiger Martial Arts School in Hazel Park, MI (which is 5 minutes from my home) costs me $60/month.  The occasional video, book or tee-shirt adds up to another whopping $200/year.   Is the quality of instruction better in Indonesia?  I would hope so (no offense Jerry!)!  But when you add up the costs, ‘free’ isn’t that free. 

For further verification, ask Sundawarrior Nick.  He was in Indonesia not to long ago and he also hosted Richard Debordes last summer.  Quality Silat instruction is hardly free no matter where you go. Make no mistake, William Sanders’s Silat IS top quality. 

And in my mind, that’s really the most important thing.

Warm regards,
Michael

[D]

Russian Silat

My true identity, Well I guess I know what you would like to hear however I’m going to have to disappoint you.

 I’m not a member of one of your rival schools in the US. I’m not a past student of yours who has turned against you. I’m not even from the US nor do I live there or have ever studied silat there.  I am not a “gang” member sent out to destroy PCP, forget about all the conspiracy theorys you may have.

I noticed that you refer to “D”avidson, putting the D in quotation marks, I guess you must be assuming this individual is me. Sorry to disappoint, the “D” used in my username refers to my name “Darren” not Davidson.

I have studied a few Martial arts at various points in my life (not an expert) A few different styles (I don’t know why I am even writing this but you requested it) TKD, Kung fu, Tai chi, Qi gong, Silat etc

I’m not going to tell you the Silat School I Studied with. Its not in the US and I don’t want you guys at PCP to bother them, I’m sure you would like to!
My thoughts are my own and have nothing to do with my past teachers or Schools I studied at.

You ask me again of the Identity of the individual who offered me the certificate. I already told you I would not give you his name, I know Sanders would give him a hard time for spilling the beans on him.
However if you really interested in knowing his identity maybe you should go ask your teacher Mr Sanders!

There was only ever one certificate obtained in this way by a westerner (think you know who I’m talking about by now) and out of friendship with me they were willing to issue a second. Its not as you make out, loads of fake certificates being printed and sold for money. The certificate would have been as "genuine" as the one held by your teacher.

I have said all I’m going to say on this matter now, dont worry your safe now.
Knew this for several years but didn’t open my mouth about it. Spoke the truth, did my bit, feel better for telling the truth and you what I knew all those years. Accept what I said as the truth ore a load of bull,

Your choice, I don’t care either way!

BTW, I did it for you guys (Sanders students), dont know you, wish you the best though, just wanted you to know the truth!



Regards D…….. or should I say “Pendekar D”

[Michael Lee]

I don't have but a second but I want to make a quick comment on your last post Darren. 

Earlier you said you are posting because of the arrogant recent comments made by a PCP member. 

Now you say you're posting for us, those same PCP students. 

Forgetting that one statement disproves the other, if your 2nd statment is true, why did you not just email one of us privately?  You've read many of our posts and I would suspect that I'm probably the most approachable of the students, so why didn't you just send me a quick private message?  Handling the matter privately would have gotten you a lot farther towards your goal of helping PCP's students  Indeed, as I've stated a few times, I've had private conversations with about a dozen people on here.  You've never seen me name names once.  Had the private route not worked, then you could have tried it in public.  You seem like a reasonably intelligent guy Darren, so the only thing I'm left to conclude is that your intentions are not altruistic. 

You've also stated that you're only speaking about Sanders's cert. from Pendekar Banten (you keep saying Cimande Banten... is it the same or a differnet organization I still wonder?.... please look for those emails and give us, if not a name, a date) and that you know nothing negative about the other ones.  It's been widely accepted (finally) that Sanders's connection to Pendekar Mama is real and I'm sure you're probably aware of this.  So if you are, then why do you chose to still go after him?  Because of something a student of his said or because you want to help the students?

Lastly (I really have to go!), you've said several times that your friend said a westerner has given a bogus cert. in the past but that your friend never told you who it was.  Yet, you conclude that it must be Sanders because he's the only westerner that says he was granted the title of Pendekar by Pendekar Banten.  If what you are saying is true, I can see that it's not a giant leap in logic to arrive at that conclusion. 

However, by your own admission Sanders was never named by your friend.  When you combine that with the fact that Pendekar Banten has been around for over 30 years and has given titles and awards to countless people, it's pure hubris to put on trial, sentence and condemn one man as you have done Darren.  If what you are saying is true, then you have needlessly and thoughtlessly slandered a good man.

However, I wouldn't worry about it because what you are saying is not true.  You hide behind the internet and throw stones like child. 

To the moderators and forum members, I apologize for letting my emotions get to me like this.  Now I understand why people can get so angry while posting online! 

Michael

[Ranggalana]

Russian Silat,

In my mind you HAVE (hopefully unintentionally) painted negative pictures about other Masters ....

What about the comments Sanders makes about the late Suwanda and Made Bawa, after the two masters give him their time for some play on video, Sanders goes and posts on his website that they are baffled by his moves?

I honestly appreciate the effort from PCP to build bridges. One thing that I believe PCP should learn is the "knowledge of the rice plant". I believe PCP guys are honestly trying to become more like silat people, and we should support them in their efforts.

Myself, I am  waiting to see if Sanders' website responds positively to the gesture of friendship this forum performed when it followed their request to lock and then remove the thread that makes you go mmmmmmmmm.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana

[EricB]

Good point Bram, Ilmu Padi ("knowledge of the rice plant") is very much suitable here.

Also the point of closing and removing the topic "that makes you go mmmmmmmmm" is something we did to achieve some positiveness (kala untuk menang)

We achieved some positiveness also, people react in a more mature way then before, I  rely hope we can alle keep it up like that,
in the end we are all human

regards,
Eric

[Ranggalana]

True, true, Kang Eric...

Lets go back to topic, the reasons for silat friendship. Everyone would of course benefit from silat friendship, that is one of the reasons of this forum, isn't it?

In fact one of the traditional reasons of silat, is silaturahmi, the exchange of loving gestures.

Traditionally silat is never to be the most effective martial arts, neither is it to be the most deadly. A saying is that it is not the 'permainan', rather it is the 'pemain'.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana