Forum Sahabat Silat
English Version => Pencak Silat General Forum => Topic started by: Russian Silat on 23/12/2007 16:45
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A greeting of Peace to all,
I would like to put forward a simple principle to all readers of this board. The principle is this:
It is better for all pesilat to be friends than to argue. It is better for our arts, it is better for Indonesia.
I offer three quick reasons why-
1. The success of one of us is the success of all of us. If Pencak Silat is to become more widely appreciated and practiced, ANY successful aliran can help towards this.
For example, if a person has a desire to study Aikido, it means they already have a positive overall impression of this art. Only then will they seek a school, master or style which is convienent. The result is that in Japan, Aikido masters have a very secure livelihood, and their art has a secure future.
Anytime any of us is successful, it helps to build this overall positive impression which all of us can then benefit from.
2. Arguing makes us look bad. People are not attracted by negativity. There have been a number of people who were interested in Silat, but then gave it up because they percieved it was all in-fighting and jealousy between the styles. It's a pity, but I've seen talented people leave the art for this reason.
People don't want a new source of negativity and controversy in their lives.
3. By talking and sharing open information about our arts, ALL of Pencak Silat can develop. Training methods, philosphical concepts, nuance of making kelids more powerful...
We probably have alot to teach each other in these areas. And by openly communicating in friendship, we will probably realize in the end that our differences are smaller than we first imagined.
So there you go.
If "Pencak Silat" itself becomes more powerful, we all become more powerful. Masters in Indonesia will have a market for videotapes, books and seminars, if they choose this. Festivals can be organized. More people will learn about the culture of Indonesia and appreciate it. China makes alot of money by visitors who come to learn Kung Fu, there is no reason why Indonesia cannot do even better.
A very simple concept...
We are all relatives in this art, whether we want to admit it or not. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Peace,
Russian Silat
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I'd like to expound on this example of Aikido.
A female friend of my wife is a sportsmen here in Russia, and she is fixated on studying Aikido. I invited her to study Silat, even for free, but she refused. I asked her what she knew about Silat, and she said she knew nothing. I asked her what she knew about Aikido, and she again said that she knew nothing.
"So why do you want to study Aikido so badly?"
answer-
"I don't know, I just hear about it, see pictures, and I want to learn it".
So Aikido is very popular in Moscow right now.
Any person with a black-belt in Aikido can make a good living in Moscow, and any Aikido master from Japan is treated like a god when they come in for trainings, testings and seminars. Russians spend alot of money and time to travel to Japan and learn from anyone they can find there.
In other words, the reputation and popularity of Aikido benefits every single master and instructor connected with the art, be they Japanese, Russian, whomever.
Aikido schools and masters are flourishing in their homeland as never before.
Aikido is popular because of an American, Steven Segal. Without him, this art would not have become as popular as it is.
Some traditional Aikido masters at first condemned him because he mixed his stuff with kali and other arts.
In the long run, this had no negative efffect on "pure" traditional Aikido- in fact the opposite. It flourishes like never before.
Likewise, if a person like Steve Benitez is successful with this Dark Eden thing, it will benefit everyone. No matter what you may think of his Silat, it doesn't matter, because his success is everyone's success.
From the kind of dialogue I've seen between Silat players on the internet, I would think it was a big espionage plan by the MMA people to undermine us as a whole. All of the arguing moves the art BACKWARDS, not forwards.
If a website is truly out to promote traditional Pencak Silat to the world, to the benefit of traditional masters living in Indonesia, it is insane to allow the negativity and slander which has taken place here.
If you are serious about the future of Pencak Silat, you should strictly enforce a total ban on negative comments concerning any aliran, style, master or teacher.
If you think something is not traditional, the answer is not to say "this person is not traditional enough". The answer is to speak in the positive and say "here is one example of a traditional way of doing things".
Instead, people want to feud over who controls what, and try to force everyone to accept their interpretation of things.
Until people in cyberspace realize this basic idea, Pencak Silat will never gain the place of honor it deserves among the other flourishing MA styles.
Peace,
Russian Silat
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From the kind of dialogue I've seen between Silat players on the internet, I would think it was a big espionage plan by the MMA people to undermine us as a whole. All of the arguing moves the art BACKWARDS, not forwards.
Hi Russian Silat
Happy Festive season
I couldn't agree with you more, outside of ourselves infighting, silat is constant riducule by the mma community. Even this past few weeks Ive seen silat community in European being refered to as "retards" "Clowns" "parody of martial arts" "kung fu wannabees" all this by the "mma" community. We in the silat world instead of attacking the differences we have, should unite or at the very least dont do our dirty washing in public. We should stand up to this constant backbiting and slandering by the mma community. Silat is the one system and style that mma guys fear, and thats why we are constanly at the forefront of their sniping. Untill we reach the level of maturity to understand each other, and to overcome our differences, we will as a system, never develop the potential that Silat can offer. Otherwise we going to be doom to this neverending debate of silliness, trying to score points over each other. Do we not owe it to silat to try and keep it alive!!
Optimus
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OK Optimus
What have you seen, where did you see it, and who was speaking ??
Was it on TV, in a magazine or what ????
Was it a demonstration, a Seni match, a Tanding match, just a training or what ??
Maybe it is postings like this what is making the Silat World an disaster, and so hard to understand for someone who knows nothing about this art. (The Viewer)
so please: put a little more fundament in your statements ;)
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Peace Eric,
As a moderator of this discussion board, have you no agreement with the basic idea that we should have only positive dialogue?
Peace,
Russian Silat
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OK Optimus
What have you seen, where did you see it, and who was speaking ??
Was it on TV, in a magazine or what ????
Was it a demonstration, a Seni match, a Tanding match, just a training or what ??
Maybe it is postings like this what is making the Silat World an disaster, and so hard to understand for someone who knows nothing about this art. (The Viewer)
so please: put a little more fundament in your statements ;)
Hi Eric
It was on a online martial arts forum, it doesnt take alot of looking to see comments like the one above, mostly from the mma community. How does my above post make the silat world a disaster? Seeking people to come together for the common good, is what most other groups do, but for some reason, the silat comminity is devoid of all common goals, weithers its because of money greed, fame greed, race, religion etc... we seem unable to work together.
To Russian Silat I applaud you, for what you doing, but I 'm thinking you may be wasting your time, as in over 30 years in martial arts, there very little brotherhood in Silat. For a art form, which takes itself so seriously about internal development and spiritual fullfillment, it has little common with anyone of it when its comes to mutuial understanding and friendship. I've seen you and Michael over the past month try to build bridges, but havn't seen a single person, come back to you with anything more than a token gesture. No wonder we easy pickings for the mma guys.
Anyway .... I may have a Russian friend who hopes to drop in on you, as he travelling back home for the new year for a holiday in Russia and see his family and he hoping to meet up with you guys.
Optimus would like to wish all human on Earth a very happy festive season and a really happy 2008.
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Thanks for the kind words Optimus.
Hope springs eternal. If we cannot unite in friendship, it will not be for lack of trying.
If your friend is in Moscow, tell him he's welcome, although I may be in Vladimir at the time. There are other people he can meet and train with in Moscow if I'm not there.
Peace on earth, goodwill towards men.
Russian Silat
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@ Fyodor: offcourse I want a positive dialogue on this board, I totaly agree
its is not an attack but I want to know something more, if possible where its from, so that I have the opportunity to comment on the statements made.
I say this as a Pesilat not as a moderator :)
@ Optimus: can you provide me with a link to that a online martial arts forum ?
I like to take a look around.
It is not your post that makes the Silat world a disaster, what I meant is comments on other places from people who know little about our common art.
I know my english is not so good, because it is not my native language, I do my best :-[
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Thanks Eric
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Hello Forum Members!
I'm going to have to amen Russian and Optimus on this one. As of late, Pukulan Cimande Pusaka has been doing an awful lot of soul searching on the subject of image. You see, we know that our Silat adheres to our teachings from Indonesia, that it's extremely combat effective, and that its teachers and students are hard working, good people. How we get others to see that has been a topic of much discussion amongst us.
Taking the time to answer the questions that people on the forum have had is one facet of our approach.
Another has been to pull out all the stops and share inner aspects of our Silat that we don't usually talk about with outsiders.
Still another has been to actively reach out and build bridges with others in the Silat community. Many of you have received private emails from me. I've had some promising dialogues with some of you and I appreciate both your efforts to communicate with me and your efforts to overcome the perceptions that you may have had of Pukulan Cimande Pusaka and it's members. To date, this direct approach of building bridges has not been as successful as I would have hoped. But, as Fyodor said, hope springs eternal!
Russian Silat also spoke of the need to be civil to each other. He spoke of how we are a Silat family and that we need to support each other, not knock each other down. I like best when he said, "...if you think something is not traditional, the answer is not to say 'this person is not traditional enough.' The answer is to speak in the positive and say 'here is one example of a traditional way of doing things.' "
Understand that I realize the chief complaint that many of you have about us is the boastful claims. Understand also that those boastful statements are a reaction to the stream of unfettered negative statements that have primarily come from this website. I don't bring this up again to re-hash the old fight, but rather as a means of supporting my position that we need to help each other, not bash each other. I'm speaking from very personal experience on this one!
Eric, you're English is excellent and I have no trouble understanding you. Although I haven't taken the time to look for Silat, a good site to look around in to see what Optimus is talking about is www.bullshido.net. It's a site devoted to ripping on traditional martial arts.
I can also relate to you a personal experience I just had in relation to Silat's image as a result of the History Channel special. A friend of mine works-out at a local BJJ / MMA school. He told me that after the History Channel Silat episode came out, the other students were laughing their asses off about Silat. In particular, they found the end "fight" sequence to be totally ridiculous. The supposed "fight" sequence was obviously choreographed moves and failed to show combative Silat in motion. Unlike other episodes of Human Weapon, where one of the hosts actually had to fight with the style of episode, for some reason, the producers went a different route for the
Silat one.
MMA is MMA and I don't take much stock in what people who study martial arts so they can be just like Tank Abbot have to say. But the point is taken that we need to be image conscious and show people the beauty of Silat. If those of us on this site come together, this can noy only be achieved, but all those other things we've talked about liked festivals, charities (I'm referring to Doc D's "A Worthy Consideration" thread), and supporting Indonesian Masters will also become a reality!
Selamat!
Michael
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To my knowledge there is not fighting amongst Silat as a whole, rather the disputes I have read on this forum and others have all in large been directed at PCP, people are pointing the finger and saying something smells fishy!
I can understand why you guys at PCP might want to build bridges but fact is there are many who don’t believe in the legitimacy of sanders pendekarship and that is something you will have great difficulty in convincing others of (myself included).
I can understand that there may be many good and hard working people at PCP, I don’t doubt it for a second! However by the term build bridge I think you are asking others to accept that Sanders is firstly a true and legitimate Pendekar and secondly his Silat is original and true Cimande. All I can say is I think the task may be harder then you think.
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Darren, your post provides me with the opportunity to clarify a few points about what it is that Pukulan Cimande Pusaka is saying with this thread.
It's true that it would be nice if everyone recognized the fact that William Sanders has legitimately been given the title of Pendekar by legitimate Indonesian Pendekars. However, it's not necessary and that's not at all the purpose of this thread.
Second, we openly and proudly talk about how Pukulan Cimande Pusaka is different from standard Cimande. Our art contains standard Cimande. But at it's core it is the art that Mas Jud practiced, Cimande Combanisi. Mas Jud's style contained all the elements of standard Cimande and it had additional ones. I'll spare the forum members yet another detailed explanation of the the components that make up Pukulan Cimande Pusaka, how we got our name, what our name means to us, etc.. etc... If you haven't read the other threads where I've talked about this or would like further clarification on a particular point, feel free to PM me anytime!
To you sir, might I inquire what is your background in Silat / Martial Arts?
Michael
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D, you've got it in for us for whatever reason. If you want to discredit us, all I can tell you is that you will never succeed, because the truth will always remain the truth.
If you aren't interested in building friendship, why then do you come on to a website called "Silat Friends"?
I hate dragging other boardmembers through this again, but the truth must always be the correct response to slander and controversy.
Pendekar William Sanders is recognized as a "Pendekar" from three primary sources, all of which are documented with valid certificates.
Guru John Malter first gave him the title "Pendekar" in the early 1980's, after he had attained the highest rank in the style of Master Willy Wetzel.
The DeThuars gave William Sanders a certificate of recognition too!
The organization "Pendekar Banten" tested William Sanders after he had spent time training in Indonesia under the guidance of Pendekars Jafri, Sirait and Sartono. They awarded him the title "Pendekar". This was in 1987.
Pendekar Mama Sukarmo, after assessing William Sanders' level of skill, and training him in the traditional arts of Embah Kahir, awarded him the title of Pendekar once more, in a written certificate AND in a recorded video.
"Pendekar" William Sanders was named head of the Pencak Silat Governing Board, USA branch, by the representative of the Indonesian government in the USA.
The list goes on to include many other things.
All of these certificates are made public by William Sanders, with complete transparency.
NO ONE, and let me repeat NO ONE outside of Indonesia has the level of documented credibility that William Sanders has. He has documentation from sources inside the USA, from Pendekar Banten, from Cimande Villange, and from the Indonesian government.
You don't have to call him a Pendekar if you don't want to, but make no mistake- he IS a Pendekar.
It is true that some (very well known) people in the US have made up their titles out of thin air, and have no proof of their rank.
But we do have plenty of proof, and you must either be blind, deaf, crazy or all three if you cannot see this.
So stop wasting our time and yours, and stop dragging Pencak Silat as a whole down with your nagging non-sense. It is people like you who give us all a bad name.
Russian Silat
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And as far as "Legitimate Cimande" is concerned...
We teach the COMPLETE arts of Embah Kahir as these are preserved in Cimande Village through the lineage of Pendekar Mama Sukarmo, who traces his lineage directly to the founder.
There is no Cimande more traditional than that!
We also teach the full Cimande arts of Mas Jud.
We also teach the full traditional Ilmu of Untung Surapati.
Whatever YOU may have or study, I suspect it doesn't hold a candle to what we have.
I suspect jealousy is at the root of your continued attacks.
-Russian Silat
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P.S.-
Merry Christmas
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Guys, must every thread morph into the same discussion? :-[
C'mon, I think everyone is now more than aware that certian organisiations either disagree, or simply do not believe each other with regard to a number of issues.
It's no wonder there is such a negative image of silat in the West. Because if anyone does a simple search they will find the same old issues on every forum. These same old issues usualy stem from a small number of same old organisations based in the USA.
Now forgive me for being blunt, but the majority of silat players in the West are not involved with either PCP or the De Thours family.
However, we all have to suffer a bad reputation that stems from this infighting from the US. Harsh but true. This reflects on all silat and not just the protagonists.
I find it undignified, to say the least. Grown men argueing about 'who's the best' and so on. Like schoolboys in a playground.
Perhaps its time for those involved to reach a level of maturity in which they can look beyond their own little sphere and understand the damage they are causing to silat as a whole?
Anyway, selamat hari Natal semua :)
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first of all: Happy holidays to you too Fyodor :)
in your reply to D you stated: I quote
NO ONE, and let me repeat NO ONE outside of Indonesia has the level of documented credibility that William Sanders has. He has documentation from sources inside the USA, from Pendekar Banten, from Cimande Village, and from the Indonesian government.
Although I'm not a pendekar I received a lot of credibility and certificates also:
- from my Perguruan
- from IPSI and Persilat
- from Pesaka
- from the European Pencak Silat Federation
- from NPSB (Dutch Pencak Silat Board)
- from several National Pencak Silat Board in other countries in Europe
- from more then one Ambassadors at the Indonesian Embassy in Holland
- from the Minister Of Cultural Affairs from the Republic of Indonesia
- I didn't receive anything from the USA, I've never been there [kecut]
This is just to mention that there are a lot of people out there who received those kind of things.
I know there are a lot of people who have even more of this stuff, does it make them better ? ............ I really don't know ::)
I cannot fight an wild animal with all my papers and certificates :D
I don't want to compare myself to anyone in this beautiful world, I received respect from some, I received question-marks from others,
In the end I can still sleep fine and feel OK, also proud of what I have achieved in this crazy world of Pencak Silat
During the years things are changing, nobody can avoid that, but do we really do need to avoid it ?
This message is just to show that papers are not so important in this world,
In my perguruan the basic is Cimande, do we have all the moves of the late Mbak Khair in our game, I don't think so, at least I'm not sure of it.
I have been to Cimande on several occasions, I have seem similarities and differences, but what is the original movement ?
I was trained over-there by the late H. Nazzarudin, also direct ancestor of Mbak Khair (btw his original name is Chairudin) do you see the similarity ?
Another point: in Indonesia people make it an art to make family trees, there is always a connection.
If you see those family trees everybody of any importance is somehow related to Muhammed the Prophet.
In West-Java everyone is somehow related to Syarif Hidayatullah (Sunan Gunung Jati) one of the Wali Songgo.
He again is the grandson of Sri Baduga (the first Maharadja of the Padjadjaran Kingdom)
And the son of Syarif Hidayatullah son is Seh Maulana Hassundin (the first Sultan of Banten)
And what do you think: Syarif Hidayatullah again is a direct ancestor of Mohammad the Prophet.
so the tree is there, just maintain the soil it is standing in :)
With this small explanation of history in West-Java I hope to give something to think about,
also Indonesian people will be saying "sombong amat" watching someone stating:
NO ONE outside of Indonesia has the level of documented credibility that William Sanders has
It is their heritage, it is their culture, it is their pride.
You can translate "sombong amat" into "too conceited"
If Indonesian people are approached with these things first and then are offered friendship, I think it is obvious the majority refuses the handshake.
Well, so far my comments
At last; let me tell you this, I'm happy with the way PCP members are acting now on our forum, maybe with some help we can learn from each-other
The future will tell.
Wassalam, Eric
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Michael Lee,
The subject of Sanders certificate and pendekarship in silat has come up several times in various forums, either in detail or passing. There was a detailed discussion on this forum not long ago as you know.
I did not give my input to that discussion at that time and the only reason I am doing so now is because of the many boastful claims I have read of recent by PCP members. You guys talk a lot about your lineage, your heritage and your master.
I said I’m one of those who dose not believe Sanders is a ligimate pendekor. I guess I should give you the reason for my disbelief, it’s only natural that you would want to know why.
Firstly I want to say that I do not base my conclusion on anything that has been wrote on this or any other forum discussions, rather I base my conclusion on information I received from an Indonesian source with ties to the School Sanders claims pendekorship from.
Secondly I can only speak of the pendekorship Sanders received in Cimande Bantin. I don’t have any knowledge of any other aspect of Sanders training or awards/titles he may have received elsewhere.
If I am correct it is this certificate obtained in Cimande Bantin which makes Sanders a Pendekor?
Some years ago I made contact with an Indonesian gentleman and over a period of time I got to know him well. I had on several occasions discussed various aspects of Indonesian culture and he helped me greatly with many things I wanted to know, a very knowledgeable man he was indeed.
I have to be careful with what I say here because I do not wish to drop him in it. After knowing this man for some time I asked him if he knew anything about Silat, he seemed to know everything else and he was an Indonesian afterall.
I tould him I was thinking of going on a trip to Indonesia and stopping by to some silat schools whilst there. What he told me was very surprising, I think maybe he thought I was seeking a qualification to teach rather than just general interest in seeing some Silat.
He told me that he was connected to the inner members of Cimande Bantin, all of whom have senior positions or who hold the title of Pendekor in that art. I was told that he could introduce me to these people and it would be possible for me to practice with them. What he told me next somewhat shocked me, I was told that since he knew me fairly well and trusted me that with a short period of training (a month at most) I would be awarded a certificate (actually I was guaranteed the Certificate). Not just any certificate but the title of Pendekor. I was told that I would be the second westerner to ever be awarded this and that it was done before and could be done again!
The discussion did not advance any further because I told my friend I was not interested in this piece of paper, had no wish to teach and therefore had no use for the qualification. I did not discuss the cost for obtaining this but have no doubt it would not have come cheap.
It makes me wonder though, he said I would be the second westerner to obtain this, who was the first?
You can imaging that since this experience if a westerner introduces himself as a Pendekor and points to a framed certificate and a few photos on the wall it doesn’t have much weight with me. Fact is I could hold the title of Pendekor too!
I predict your next question, who is the individual who could have obtained this for you? My answer to that is that is for my knowledge only. I am out of contact with him for some time now however he helped me much and I won’t drop him in it.
I predict your response to my unwillingness to divulge the identity of the individual, you will say everything I have said is therefore false and untrue.
I will answer that in advance also, accuse me of being someone who dose not speak the truth if it pleases you, I will not waist my time trying to convince others. I know what I was told, I know it is true and it is good enough for me.
As to the question you asked about my knowledge/involvement in martial arts. I think you are asking me of my authority to speak in this matter. I have done various martial arts fore some time. I would say my knowledge is not perfect by no means but neither is anyone elses. In the end of the day it’s not important what I have done and with whom, I am not the one who is announcing himself as a great pendekor.
Regards
D
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Darren,
I few points for clarification and some responses for you….
Sanders did indeed obtain a certificate and title of Pendekar from Pendekar Banten in 1987. This certificate and title were obtained after over half a dozen trips to Indonesian between 1983 and 1987. They were also obtained after he had gone through several weeks of various testings that included things like meditating by himself overnight in both cemeteries and in the jungle as well as countless tests of his physical and magikal skills. Further, they were given to him because of his 15 years of solid training and exclusive devotion to Cimande style Pencak Silat.
Though I was only a teenage at the time and had not ever heard of Cimande or William Sanders (I was busy doing Tae Kwon Do collegiate wrestling), I know the man now and know for a fact that he's an honest person. So even if he didn’t have all the certificates, photos and videos, I know he’s an honest guy so therefore I believe him. Oh yeah, there’s also that little thing about him being the most extraordinary martial artist I’ve ever laid my eyes on. Of course there are people with more skills than him, but he's pretty damned good!
This is not to say that he's more than a man, because that’s all he is, just a man. I don’t put him on a pedestal or worship the ground he walks on. However, I do have a tremendous amount of respect for him as both a person and martial artist. I also greatly admire his devotion to Pencak Silat and the constant respect he pays to his Indonesian Masters.
It's unfortunate that someone told you that you could obtain a pendekarship for a fee from Pendekar Banten. The first question I have for you is not who this person was (though I'm sure many of the other members of Pendekar Banten on this forum might want to know), rather, it's how do you know he was legitimately connected with Pendekar Banten?
It’s quite easy for me to image a huckster telling you that if you paid HIM a fee, he would get you all the credentials that you asked for. And that says nothing about the authenticity of the credentials that you received. What I’m saying here is be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Pendekar Banten is a well respected organization and your statements impugn not just William Sanders, but all of its members.
I will also add that Sanders has been given the title of Pendekar from other sources as well. Again, I won’t relist them all here as they are available on his well documented website and in other threads.
As you said D, I don't really care if you believe me or not because I know what I'm saying is true.
Michael
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Darren, I just re-read your post and I have a question for you. You stated that the un-named man in Indonesia offered you a certificate from Cimande Banten. Just so we're clear, did you mean Cimande Banten or Pendekar Banten? Pendekar Banten is the organization that we are affiliated with. I'm not even sure if there is an organization called Cimande Banten but if there is, and that's the organization that you are talking about, then this can be chalked up to a misunderstanding.
If it's not, and when you say Cimande Banten you are referring to the organization Pendekar Banten, then we are back at square one.
I'll also add that there are many other members of this forum who are also members of Pendekar Banten. So if you are calling into question the crediability of Pendekar Banten, then you are also impugning all of it's members.
Michael
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I like to have some comments on my latest post in this thread :(
http://sahabatsilat.com/forum/index.php?topic=409.msg6923#msg6923
I took me at least half an hour to write it :O
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Darren, just because someone tried to scam you in Indonesia, this has nothing to do with Pendekar Sanders.
As far as I know, he paid absolutely no fee for his title, and this is pure, unsubstantiated slander on your part.
You pull your story out of thin air, and ask everyone to trust you.
We offer multiple sources of documentation.
Hmmmmmm.......
You attack the credibility not only of a renowned and accomplished master, but also of Pendekar Banten!
People like you are a blight on the art of Pencak Silat.
D, you go too far when you attack the credibility of Pendekar Banten. This is truly low and disrespectful.
Someone tried to scam you- so what? Think of it this way: a person graduated from a respectable university, then later it is discovered that some slime bag con-artist is making fake degrees from that same institution and then selling them to wanabees.
Who is at fault here, the dirtbag who offered the fake degree, or the person who actually received the real degree?
Anyone with an ounce of character can come to the correct conclusion. I personally would not associate with such scam artists, and if I were you I would want to expose him, so he doesn’t try to disgrace Pendekar Banten by actually selling such bogus degrees.
From the tone of your post, it sounds as if you are on intimate terms with this unethical scumbag, and that he has performed services for you in the past. Hmmm…
If this guy needs some business, you should contact Jeff Davidson- I heard he paid Tuhon Gaje a nice sum of money to make him Michigan representative of Pekiti Tersia. He might be willing to buy a fake Pendekar Banten certificate. The photocopied fake he showed me back in the 90’s doesn’t look too convincing anymore.
Anyone who offers fake degrees has no ethics, and in no way reflects the true heritage of great Pencak Silat masters such as Pendekars Jafri, Sirait, and Mama.
My advice to you D, is instead of casting stones at people who actually get real qualifications from real people, find better teachers for yourself, and don’t associate with people who offer you bogus credentials (and then protect their anonymity out of ‘respect’!). If you lay down with dogs, you will wake up with fleas.
Are you really calling into question the legitimacy of Pendekar Banten? This is unbelievable. Many people, including the moderators of this board, are connected to them.
From what you say about this one individual, I can see now why you won’t talk about who your other teachers and credentials are.
-Russian Silat
Eric B, I would like to apologise for my earlier boasting. I spoke without knowing the facts- indeed there may be other people outside Indonesia with the same or better qualifications.
It is true that my culture is different, and people are encouraged to be proud of their accomplishments. But when speaking to people of a different culture, their sensitivities should be thought of.
I'm just tired of people like D making trouble for no good reason, and perhaps I am sometimes too reactionary.
There is no way I can let lies go unanswered, however much I want the dialogue to be positive.
The answer is to stop negative, harmful, useless in-fighting, and get on with building friendship, learning and promoting.
Some ignorant people still do not get it.
Regards,
Russian Silat
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No mistake was made and it cant be chalked over or covered up. The individual I am speaking of was not trying to scam me. Have no doubt in your mind, everything I said is accurate 100%
I would have to sift through my email record but I'm fairly sure its the same organisation. I remember it was in Serang City, ring any bells?
Secondly remember he said I would be the second Westerner to obtain the title of Pendekor in Cimande Banten, do you know of another western Pendekor other than Sanders who claims Pendekorship in Silat Banten?
BTW, he told me he knew Sanders well!
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Sorry Russian Silat you keep on mentioning that I am disrespecting Banten Silat, I get the feeling your hoping to get some help from those involved with Silat Banten ,someone to jump in and save your ass! Maybe you should PM them?
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I am enjoying the information posted by Russian Silat . D , no disrespect but with all your wild unfounded , i think its here , some where accusations it would appear if anyone needs help , its you . Also isnt it spelled Pendekar ? I dont think such posts should even be allowed without full supporting documentation. Hell , I can say I have all kinds of dirt on D, he did all kinds of shady things , his teacher also has a big stake in making Sanders look bad ,I even know who that is also , just cant say who , what , where or why , Honest its here . HONEST YOU MUST BELIEVE ME !!!!! hehehe. I guese my post should be removed also , along with his . I saw a fake rolex for sale at the swap meet , I heard all the guys who had the real ones were ditching them after they heard that , seeing as that made thier watches SO less valuable , NOT.
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So Aikido is very popular in Moscow right now. I told her that Silat is much more interesting and effective, but she would rather go learn some boring, ineffective stuff just because it happens to be widely-known.
Now that, my friend, is not kosher. I am not an aikidoka myself, but I know exactly how to make Aikido effective, just because I learn a family of it's parent art, the so called aiki-jujutsu.
Yes, not many aikidoka today can apply their trades on the street or the ring, but you my friend, should not dis aikido as a whole because of that.
For all I care, all those fancy schmancy H2H bladed empty hand whatever you guys call martial arts can never hold a candle to my sawed off 12 gauge shotgun when you meet me in a dark alley. Note that.
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Hello Dasa Man,
Yes, I've seen some good Aikido, and in fact we use an Aikido studio to train in three nights per week.
But the way they teach it here in Moscow-- it doesn't do the art justice.
You're right- I have no business saying anything bad about another art. Thanks for the reminder. I have modified my earlier post to remove the offensive passage.
So long as people like D are allowed to hijack positive, constructive threads, and are allowed to slander masters, esteemed organizations, and offer absolutely no supporting evidence- well, so long as this keeps happening all potential for some good result will have to wait.
Again, Pendekar Sanders didn't pay any money whatsoever for his title, and this was in 1987- twenty years ago. There was no e-mail or internet back then, so if you check your e-mail log from 1987, I think you'll have a problem.
Unless D can offer some concrete evidence for his slander against Pendekar Sanders and Pendekar Banten, I suggest he be banned, so that we can move forward in constructive dialogue.
It's obvious that this guy is just making up a bunch of lies, and is out to cause trouble.
Best Regards,
Russian Silat
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@ D: I suggest you tell us who you are in real life
We know nothing about you, but you seem to be knowing everything from our members.
Another thing: it is so easy to call names and slender people on a public forum by staying anonymous,
If you don't like Sanders and PCP that is your problem, deal with it or take a hike.
This is flaming behaviour and we simply don't allowe it here on this forum !
You earned your first official warning
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@ other members who have something against "D"
It is up to the crew either we BAN a member or not, asking for Banning a person is a little weak don't you think ;)
We/you have the possibility and/or maturity to debate in a civilized way, so lets keep it this way :)
regards Eric
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Point taken Eric!
Happy Holidays everyone!
Michael
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Happy Holidays everyone,
Michael,
Although I agree that D should provide evidence of his claims. I don't think it is proper to ban him unless he starts to get unruly.
D,
If you are going to make claims, you should be ready to back them with hard evidence.
Salam,
Nicholas
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first of all: Happy holidays to you too Fyodor :)
in your reply to D you stated: I quote
NO ONE, and let me repeat NO ONE outside of Indonesia has the level of documented credibility that William Sanders has. He has documentation from sources inside the USA, from Pendekar Banten, from Cimande Village, and from the Indonesian government.
Although I'm not a pendekar I received a lot of credibility and certificates also:
- from my Perguruan
- from IPSI and Persilat
- from Pesaka
- from the European Pencak Silat Federation
- from NPSB (Dutch Pencak Silat Board)
- from several National Pencak Silat Board in other countries in Europe
- from more then one Ambassadors at the Indonesian Embassy in Holland
- from the Minister Of Cultural Affairs from the Republic of Indonesia
- I didn't receive anything from the USA, I've never been there [kecut]
...................
The future will tell.
Wassalam, Eric
Hi Eric,
I would be a big supporter of all of us agreeing on not making such claims in the future because it makes all of us look like a bunch of weirdos. Our world should not be about certifications or any kind of paper. It should be about appreciation for the way we go about teaching or training our art to the best of our knowledge and maintaining a certain modesty in our presentation to the outer world.
just my 2 cents
Pekir
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Hello Patrick
I agree with you, it is not that I'm making a claim here, you know me and I'm NOT that kind of person.
My main goal is to get the truth out and sometimes I like to compare,
things I received are not so important to me, that's why I put the statement in my previous message also; I quote:This is just to mention that there are a lot of people out there who received those kind of things.
I know there are a lot of people who have even more of this stuff, does it make them better ? ............ I really don't know
I cannot fight an wild animal with all my papers and certificates
I don't want to compare myself to anyone in this beautiful world, I received respect from some, I received question-marks from others,
In the end I can still sleep fine and feel OK, also proud of what I have achieved in this crazy world of Pencak Silat
In normal life I always try to be modest, but sometimes my hart is speaking also.
What I want to achieve is that people who are to much focused/devoted on/to one teacher should open their eyes and do some research for themselves.
I did it also and a new world was opened for me, and it gave me a lot of happiness
with respect, Eric
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If there is anyone acting with behaviour which sparks off conflict its those within PCP. Its quite simple really if you don’t agree that Sanders is a great pendekar and that PCP is the most deadly form of silat that can be found, including within Indonesia then its PCP’s job to paint a negative picture of you…….have I got that right guys, I think I have?
I am not the only one that has found dirt on this “esteemed organization” many have, and we are all wrong isn’t that right boys!
Tell me how hard it is to be genuinely given the title of pendekar (by an Indonesian authority). Tell me, do you think it could be obtained by a few trips here and there. If you believe that, well your lost.
You ask me for proof! No I ask you for proof. Your proof is the certificate in question maybe a photograph and other meaningless and easily obtained items. Maybe I should have paid for that certificate and that piece of paper would have been my proof, my morals are better then that though. Looks like you put a high value on paper!
You paint an image of Sanders as a humble man under much burden (heavy is the burden for the one who carries the light!) but tell me dose a humble man go around boasting and making big claims? Is that your version of what it is to be humble?
Sanders as the highest qualified, that’s a joke there are others with a far higher level of skill in Silat!
It is people like me, Bram etc who give silat a bad name by “fighting”, people like us should all be banned or silenced! That’s right you would like that, wouldn’t you. Over on MAP whenever someone would say something negative you would get your moderator friend to lock the thread or ban the writer. Why don’t you approach this forum and see if you cant get one of your boys in.
Actually its people like you who give silat a bad name with your ridiculous claims, boasting and deadly techniques. When people see your videos on youtube I wonder how many think its “deadly”
A sinking ship, every time someone blows a hole in your hull you scurry to plug it up and just when you think you stopped all the leaks someone else blows another hole in your ship. Fighting is not among the silat community, don’t try to manipulate the facts. The majority of accusations are aimed at your school and its claims. Don’t try to rope in others by making it more general or widespread.
And the concrete proof that what I say is true, you tried to build bridges with others involved in silat but it wasn’t very successful, why do you think that is so?
If you were the humble “esteemed” organization you say you are people would jump at the chance of a connection to your school.
Another thing, please clarify where the certificate was obtained, is it near Serang?
EricB,
I did not make claims of knowing everyone and everything about individuals on this forum, I don’t know any of you. My statements are about Sanders and his certificate of pendekarship in Silat Bantin.
PCP say Sanders was tested in silat Bantin and they were so impressed with what they seen they made him a pendekar!
I am most confused, how can you be tested in a particular style of Silat and receive a pendekarship in it without first studying that specific style for many, many years. So where did Sanders learn Silat Bantin then? He must have learnt it somewhere else first and was later tested in Indonesia. I hope the guys at PCP are not trying to say Sanders studied , was tested and received the title of pendekar in silat bantin within a month…….boy he must be good!
But then again, remember, I was offered the same thing!
Also it would seem that Sanders must be an expert (know every aspect and detail) in Silat Bantin since he holds the very highest rank obtainable within that style.
If one person points the finger its an accusation / slander, if two people point the finger, its coincidence, if several people point the finger, make up your own mind!
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Hmmmmm , I think the three persons pointing here should be called a gang from the actions I am seeing !!!!. Or maybe one person posting under a bunch of names ???? Thought maybe i would read more cool stuff today , sigh ,more flack from the same guy ????? a question , I could be wrong but didn't the moderators , both of them ask D to not post his unfounded allegations ? wasn't he given a warning or he would be banned ????? Didn't he just spit in the face of that warning here ? Wasn't he asked to fully identify himself because of his acid posts ? By not enforcing what was asked I fear another thread goes down to the thread pirates . I did a google search on this Banten organization a while back , mostly newspaper articles in Bahasa came up, but I recall the location did as well , does not seem hard for about anyone to find that , hey , I have big dirt on the President , guese what I actualy know he is in washington DC , that was hard !!!!!
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Mantis, I think everyone should look at your post record, its obvious you pro PCP ::)
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I happen to enjoy reading about all the positive silat posts here no matter who they are from , I also DONT want to waste my time reading political banter and slander no matter who that is addresed to when it is stopping positive type posts I can learn from . The PCP posts i have been reading qaulify as interesting material , yours seems to go , so far , in the other direction, on every thread . it seems when ever the pcp guys get a good topic going some one , steps in with the monkey wrench to try and lead the topic of on a political , acid toned direction, which I for one can do without . This does not seem to happen to the other positve posts I see from other arts , so it seems there is a small group , hence my term gang , targeting pcp. If this were to happen with another group , stopping a positive dialog , I would post for them also . Maybe others enjoy such time wasting conflict but since i dont , I have a right to say so. I am no big expert in silat but I can read pretty well . You seem to call for being on the up and up yet I found it odd you think the rules that seemd laid out pretty clear for you dont apply to you , you are above them , and you are free to still sow discord as you choose . I guese time will tell if you are realy allowed to do so , even when warned and told not to . When I reminded you of that , the best you had was I am pro PCP ? ? At this point I welcome any positive post about anything from anyone.
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Hi “D”, welcome back from celebrating Christmas…
You know, I was thinking, and darn it all, I HAVE seen a forged Pendekar Banten certificate before.
My former teacher and voodoo cult leader Jeff Davidson had a photocopy of Pendekar Sanders certificate from Pendekar Banten. He had forged himself a very cheap looking guru certificate by copying it and artfully applying his name in the place of honor. “D”avidson said that his first Pendekar, Pendkar Suwindi from Cibatog village, had made him a guru when he was 21 years old, after he had proven himself in several death matches fought in holes in the ground.
Davidson still has a copy of Sanders original certificate- which includes the names of the cities you mention in your post…..
Hmmmm…..
Its real simple “D”. The truth has nothing to hide. If what you maintain is true, then tell us all your real identity, the identities of your “sources” and provide concrete information.
Until you do, all of this is just pure slander and flaming.
-Russian Silat
P.S. I wonder who gave you your three good reputation points.
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"D" writes,
"If there is anyone acting with behaviour which sparks off conflict its those within PCP. Its quite simple really if you don’t agree that Sanders is a great pendekar and that PCP is the most deadly form of silat that can be found, including within Indonesia then its PCP’s job to paint a negative picture of you…….have I got that right guys, I think I have?"
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
You must be totally insane, and think that we are all idiots.
These were totally positive threads until you started your crap.
We have never painted a negative picture of any Master or style- I have even modified and apologised for posts which might have offended people who study other styles!
We were in the proccess of establishing some good dialogue with others, this is why it was so crucial for you to try to destroy it.
You will fail in your mission. We will continue to seek out respectful dialogue with others, we will tell the truth, and we will make friends and allies out of former enemies.
It is my greatest wish to learn and exchange information on this board, just as it is your greatest wish to sabotage anything positive.
Jeff Davidson needs to perpetuate the myth of PCP being frauds, because his new mythology about himself is based on this premise. Instead of being caught out on a decades worth of lies, losing his school, his students and all credibility, he tries to put his problems off on Sanders. It's easier for his image and ego to say "I left because I discovered my teacher was a fraud".
Therefore he cannot tolerate any positive and constructive position we may take. He has been working behind the scenes for the last few years to spread lies and rile people up.
All of this has been destructive for the Silat community as a whole, and it has to stop.
Criticize us all you want- but provide proof.
We've got nothing to hide.
Why do you continue to hide?
I look forward to stopping useless argumets, and communicating in friendship. It's a big task building my schools here in Russia, and I need all the positive energy I can get.
-Russian Silat
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I'm going to ignore D's continued negativity for the time being. In this post, I want to focus on what Eric B. recently stated in his post that took him half an hour to create. 8)
Eric, I understood that when you listed your credentials the purpose was to show that credentials do not make someone better. I couldn't agree more!
The only reason Pendekar Sanders credentials are talked about so much on this website is because people on this website ask questions about them. Then, when the questions are answered, we are shouted down for talking so much about credentials! Immediately following that, there have usually been more questions. :-\
Until I came onto this website last summer, I never had heard that much about any of Sanders's credentials, nor did I really care. I was aware that he had some certificates on his website and I'd seen all the photos at one point or another, but I honestly didn't pay them much mind because as you said Eric, you can't fight with papers and certificates. As I've stated before, even if Pendekar Sanders didn't have any of his certificates, photos or videos, I'd still be trusting and training with him. He's an honest person and his Silat is a perfect fit for me. It's fantastically combat effective and that's what attracts me most.
Eric, you also talked about the idea of being open to other teachers. I couldn’t agree with you more and neither could Sanders! He's had countless teachers over the years. Following his example, it's more than ok for me seek out new teachers and to learn new things. Sanders only met Pendekar Mama a few years ago and incorporated his teachings into PCP. And for the record, Pendekar Sanders is the 6th martial arts teacher I’ve had over the years. One of the wonderful things about him that you may not know is that he’s not at all adverse to his students training elsewhere. Indeed, if I were to find a teacher that had something I liked that PCP didn’t have, Pendekar Sanders would not only encourage me to learn it, but he would probably be banging down my door to learn it himself! An example is the Silat of Richard Debordes. Sanders says nothing but great things about him and his Silat and has encouraged me to seek him out if I desire. And I do desire!
We are not so close minded as some may think.
Another thought I want to comment on is this idea of Silat being for free in some places. I’ve been told that many teachers in Indonesia don’t accept money for instruction in their Silat and that I should seek out such people. That would be wonderful! However in order for me to get over to Indonesia, airfare is in the neighborhood of $2,000, plus accommodations, plus food expense, plus costs of being away from home and work. When you add it all up, a trip over to Indonesia lasting several weeks to a month, would cost me in the neighborhood of at least $3000, maybe upwards of $5000. If I wanted to bring home any antiques or other souveniers, the costs can quickly escalate. King Tiger Martial Arts School in Hazel Park, MI (which is 5 minutes from my home) costs me $60/month. The occasional video, book or tee-shirt adds up to another whopping $200/year. Is the quality of instruction better in Indonesia? I would hope so (no offense Jerry!)! But when you add up the costs, ‘free’ isn’t that free.
For further verification, ask Sundawarrior Nick. He was in Indonesia not to long ago and he also hosted Richard Debordes last summer. Quality Silat instruction is hardly free no matter where you go. Make no mistake, William Sanders’s Silat IS top quality.
And in my mind, that’s really the most important thing.
Warm regards,
Michael
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Russian Silat
My true identity, Well I guess I know what you would like to hear however I’m going to have to disappoint you.
I’m not a member of one of your rival schools in the US. I’m not a past student of yours who has turned against you. I’m not even from the US nor do I live there or have ever studied silat there. I am not a “gang” member sent out to destroy PCP, forget about all the conspiracy theorys you may have.
I noticed that you refer to “D”avidson, putting the D in quotation marks, I guess you must be assuming this individual is me. Sorry to disappoint, the “D” used in my username refers to my name “Darren” not Davidson.
I have studied a few Martial arts at various points in my life (not an expert) A few different styles (I don’t know why I am even writing this but you requested it) TKD, Kung fu, Tai chi, Qi gong, Silat etc
I’m not going to tell you the Silat School I Studied with. Its not in the US and I don’t want you guys at PCP to bother them, I’m sure you would like to!
My thoughts are my own and have nothing to do with my past teachers or Schools I studied at.
You ask me again of the Identity of the individual who offered me the certificate. I already told you I would not give you his name, I know Sanders would give him a hard time for spilling the beans on him.
However if you really interested in knowing his identity maybe you should go ask your teacher Mr Sanders!
There was only ever one certificate obtained in this way by a westerner (think you know who I’m talking about by now) and out of friendship with me they were willing to issue a second. Its not as you make out, loads of fake certificates being printed and sold for money. The certificate would have been as "genuine" as the one held by your teacher.
I have said all I’m going to say on this matter now, dont worry your safe now.
Knew this for several years but didn’t open my mouth about it. Spoke the truth, did my bit, feel better for telling the truth and you what I knew all those years. Accept what I said as the truth ore a load of bull,
Your choice, I don’t care either way!
BTW, I did it for you guys (Sanders students), dont know you, wish you the best though, just wanted you to know the truth!
Regards D…….. or should I say “Pendekar D” [top]
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I don't have but a second but I want to make a quick comment on your last post Darren.
Earlier you said you are posting because of the arrogant recent comments made by a PCP member.
Now you say you're posting for us, those same PCP students.
Forgetting that one statement disproves the other, if your 2nd statment is true, why did you not just email one of us privately? You've read many of our posts and I would suspect that I'm probably the most approachable of the students, so why didn't you just send me a quick private message? Handling the matter privately would have gotten you a lot farther towards your goal of helping PCP's students Indeed, as I've stated a few times, I've had private conversations with about a dozen people on here. You've never seen me name names once. Had the private route not worked, then you could have tried it in public. You seem like a reasonably intelligent guy Darren, so the only thing I'm left to conclude is that your intentions are not altruistic.
You've also stated that you're only speaking about Sanders's cert. from Pendekar Banten (you keep saying Cimande Banten... is it the same or a differnet organization I still wonder?.... please look for those emails and give us, if not a name, a date) and that you know nothing negative about the other ones. It's been widely accepted (finally) that Sanders's connection to Pendekar Mama is real and I'm sure you're probably aware of this. So if you are, then why do you chose to still go after him? Because of something a student of his said or because you want to help the students?
Lastly (I really have to go!), you've said several times that your friend said a westerner has given a bogus cert. in the past but that your friend never told you who it was. Yet, you conclude that it must be Sanders because he's the only westerner that says he was granted the title of Pendekar by Pendekar Banten. If what you are saying is true, I can see that it's not a giant leap in logic to arrive at that conclusion.
However, by your own admission Sanders was never named by your friend. When you combine that with the fact that Pendekar Banten has been around for over 30 years and has given titles and awards to countless people, it's pure hubris to put on trial, sentence and condemn one man as you have done Darren. If what you are saying is true, then you have needlessly and thoughtlessly slandered a good man.
However, I wouldn't worry about it because what you are saying is not true. You hide behind the internet and throw stones like child.
To the moderators and forum members, I apologize for letting my emotions get to me like this. Now I understand why people can get so angry while posting online!
Michael
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Russian Silat,
In my mind you HAVE (hopefully unintentionally) painted negative pictures about other Masters ....
What about the comments Sanders makes about the late Suwanda and Made Bawa, after the two masters give him their time for some play on video, Sanders goes and posts on his website that they are baffled by his moves?
I honestly appreciate the effort from PCP to build bridges. One thing that I believe PCP should learn is the "knowledge of the rice plant". I believe PCP guys are honestly trying to become more like silat people, and we should support them in their efforts.
Myself, I am waiting to see if Sanders' website responds positively to the gesture of friendship this forum performed when it followed their request to lock and then remove the thread that makes you go mmmmmmmmm.
Salam hangat,
Ranggalana
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Good point Bram, Ilmu Padi ("knowledge of the rice plant") is very much suitable here.
Also the point of closing and removing the topic "that makes you go mmmmmmmmm" is something we did to achieve some positiveness (kala untuk menang)
We achieved some positiveness also, people react in a more mature way then before, I rely hope we can alle keep it up like that,
in the end we are all human
regards,
Eric
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True, true, Kang Eric...
Lets go back to topic, the reasons for silat friendship. Everyone would of course benefit from silat friendship, that is one of the reasons of this forum, isn't it?
In fact one of the traditional reasons of silat, is silaturahmi, the exchange of loving gestures.
Traditionally silat is never to be the most effective martial arts, neither is it to be the most deadly. A saying is that it is not the 'permainan', rather it is the 'pemain'.
Salam hangat,
Ranggalana
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Bram thank you for your kind and encouraging words. I can promise you that we will continue to try to be good citizens of this community.
The wisdom of the rice plant sounds like a good teaching.
I believe the biggest obstical to humility is to embrace humility while at the same time being obliged to fend off attacks.
Humility is not appropriate when one is being attacked. This is the philosphy of pacifists, and I don't believe any of us here embrace that philosophy.
In times of peace and mutual respect, humility is, and should be, king.
You have made us aware of things we have said which may have caused offense.
I do believe you have exaggerated and distorted the contentious issues to make them more acute, but that is another matter.
Let me state now that I have the highest respect for anyone who has cultivated themselves in this art, and displays good character. I pay Hormat to the late Pendekar Suwanda, and hope that the style he founded flourishes.
I feel that our camp can and should be reflexive to the sensitivities of others, and moderate our speech accordingly. If we are not forced to respond to allegations, this task will be much easier.
In other words, please stop provoking us so that we can display this humility of which you speak.
It is a tremendous waste of time to indulge in negative energy. I need to have positive support from others in the Silat community. I need pointers and feedback on how to train my students in kelids. I need to know more about the terminology and spelling of words. I need to know the nuance of the differences between various aliran and philosophies. I need to know more about the place of Silat in Indonesian culture.
Everything I learn here I share with many students. It is unfortunate I haven't been able to learn much so far, but hopefully this will change.
Now about D...
Until he reveals his identity, I will continue to believe he is Jeff Davidson. We may have stepped on some toes recently on the internet, but the only two people who are our longstanding enemies, and have reason to go after us are Davidson and the De Thuars.
The things D says are pure slander. If you really want to know, it would be simple to ask Pendekar Hassan of Pendekar Banten if he sold a certificate made out to William Sanders or not.
Sanders says he never paid a single penny for his certificate, not even for the postage to have it sent to him.
I believe Bill Sanders because I have known him for a long time, and he has always been honest with me about everything- even things which were potentially embarassing and damaging. he has been consistent with telling me the same things and being honest and open for 13 years.
So it's ridiculous for some anonymous person on the internet to invent an unfounded story under the pretense of opening my eyes to one of my best friends.
And I have to agree with Michael; Sanders' various Pendekar certificates have never been a point of focus for me, and they have only been dragged into the center of attention by all of this crap. Even if his certificates came from the back of a cracker-jack box, I would still be in awe over the way he moves and fights. Every day I feel lucky that he is my teacher.
I am open to accepting other teachers as well.
Best regards,
Russian Silat