What is wrong with mixed martial arts.

[Doc D]

Hello
I have finally found a bit of time to , once again , add commentary to the forum . particularly this thread.

The substance of the more deeply rooted "traditional " martial arts ,whether  pencak silat or others, will always attract and have appeal to those who want more than mere combat.  Combat considerations and combat practicality ,to one degree or another , must be at the core of anything termed "martial". However, once people "fill the square " of meeting their self defense needs , especially if they look at their art as a life long endeavor, they begin to look for other reasons for training.....this is when they often come to appreciate the other aspects of their art. Of course ,nothing helps one develop a bit than having the opportunity to engage in a controlled, high stress, full speed / high energy competition with someone you don't normally train with. MMA may have its own proponents and "true believers" who feel the only thing worth consideration is that which is "proven in the ring" . However, it does not take long for an intelligent student of combat and warfare to realize that the Octagaon or competition ring is fraught with artificial and unrealistic conditions and restrictions that all out battlefield or  "street" combat does not afford anyone.

Once in a conversation,  Guro Inosanto of Jeet Kune Do mentioned he had students that come in with specific desires. They may only want to learn to fight , but after getting that desire fullfilled, they turn their attentions to the philosophical and artistic aspects of the martial arts. Conversely, those who enter training wanting all the philosophy , harmony , fitness and artistic expression  often decide they need to ,finally, explore the use of their martial art for combat.

Every age has had it's  combative performers and entertainers.....the Gladiators of Rome and the Jousting tournaments of the European Middle ages come to mind. Certainly the Euro -American culture of the duelists , for all it drama and spectacle , were not oriented toward the higher aspects of human development  while it was rooted in  the arts of sword play and , later , the firearm. MMA will probably find its place in history right along side these. They existed along side , but did not replace ,the practical battlefield skills of the soldier  and they did not wipe out those practices focused on higher development and fair sportsmanship.

With Respect

Doc

[Doc D]

Hello again. Sundawarrior asked me a question with regard to Jeet Kune Do. While I am a Pencak Silat man, I have trained in JKD and have a modest understanding of this subject. I did at one time have an active certification in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipino Kali under Guro Inosanto. I did not seek certification in his Maphilindo Silat program because I already trained in Pencak Silat.

First ,Guro Inosanto strikes me as an outstanding gentleman. He gives credit to the arts he studied and always appears ready to tie on the humble sash or belt of a beginner when he wishes to explore an art. My understanding is that before he starts teaching an art in his Academy or on the seminar circuit  he trains in an art step by step until he recieves his instructorship. He certainly has had many instructors over the years and ,as near as I can tell, has undergone fairly traditional training from Dutch-Indonesian, Malaysian  and Indonesian instructors. Still , his ultimate goal is to bring material and skills into his primary art ,JKD. He does have a silat method called Maphilindo or Madjapahit Silat that I believe, is his method of silat training for his JKD students which is an integration of what he feels is most useful from his varied studies in silat. Tuhon Leo Gaje and the Late Eddie Jaffrie (sp?) may have contributed to this ,but I am unclear on that.
For many people across the USA he is the first man to ever have shown a little Pencak Silat to them and , so, is probably one of Indonesian Martial Arts best ambassadors in the USA. {Regardless of what anyone might see on the internet or on the magazines, Pencak Silat is a very obscure art here in the USA ,it is fairly hard to find and  few people know of it ,as a general rule. } He always encourages his students to go to the source of whatever art he has inspired them to explore and study it fully....and then begin the process of reduction to the essence of what they wish to retain for their combative skill sets.

With that being said , I think there are sometimes some shortcomings amongst certain students of JKD.....not all.
I think some JKD teachers that have attended a number of seminars and have a few sets and groupings of techniques from Guro Inosanto's  Maphilindo Silat presentations  too eagerly tell their students they do not have to look for silat . They lead their students to believe they are already adequately training in silat, although their knowledge is really pretty shallow and limited. If all they want is just a couple of silat based techniques to integrate into their over all fighting method , I suppose there is no problem . If they want to portray themselves as a pencak silat teacher , I think their knowledge is definitely inadequate. I have experienced this with local JKD students who, out of curiousity ,have dropped by. I have also seen a bit of the "throwing the baby out with the bath water" sort of thing. I will show a simple Jurus ,  a breathing set or training in kuda-kuda  and the response will be that it is all part of a useless "classical mess"......they do not have the patience or inclination to see what it really develops  or where it really leads. If you do not show them immediate application and technique...if you don't  "only show them the good stuff", they lose interest very fast. (I am certain this is NOT Guro Inosanto's world view )
I have experienced this with a number of JKD students/ teachers , but that does not mean that this is the rule. It would be unfair to say that I have not had this experience with students from other backgrounds as well.

There are students of JKD that train as much as they can in the traditional arts that capture their interest. Unfortunately, some only seem to get their material from seminars . There is a big difference ,I think , between those that get their training exclusively from seminars and those that go to the Inosanto Academy for training or who flesh out their training by seeking out the silat teachers that Guro Inosanto points them to. Folks who train in JKD have a lot of varied interests.....they do not all value the same material equally. One could be absolutely enthusiastic about Pencak Silat , Jun Fan Gung Fu and Muay Thai while another only appreciates Jun Fan Gung Fu , Inosanto- Lacoste Kali and Brazilian Jujitsu. Talk to one and you might be pleased with his or her interest....talk to the other and you might be displeased.

I have not trained at the Inosanto academy but I seem to see that those who go out there and train in Maphilindo / Madjapahit Silat have a better handle on the subject of Pencak Silat than some other JKD students. I know Guro Inosanto  has a certification for being a Maphilindo Silat instructor and I believe that  those students are required to have this deeper knowledge base.  So, to be fair , one can not really generalize about the JKD folks. Some only know a little silat from their seminar exposure  but others are either going to the sources Guro Inosanto went to or are in the more goal directed Maphilindo Silat certification program and / or training more deeply in Silat at his academy.

A rather nice sampling of the Madjapahit Silat program can be found on a new DVD put out by  Guru Suzanne Luna Spezzano , a student of Guro Inosanto. It can be found on the www.Inosanto.com website ,if no where else. I have seen it and I think the presentation is nice . Now,  she only has about 100 min of time to show instruction so it will certainly not show the full width and depth of what they do. I have seen this DVD and I thought it was very nice. If she made a second DVD set , I would enjoy seeing that as well ,I think. She shows warm up exercises, Langkah, groundwork and kicking  both solo and with partner. She does not show kembangan or Jurus -jurus but does make mention of these.....so....perhaps they train in them more than you might think. Again , this was a first effort and she only had limited time. No doubt ,the pragmatic combat oriented nature of JKD training would influence her to show more application and less of the solo exercises and kembangan.

Here is the breakdown of her DVDs( Its a 2 volume set):
Volume 1
Chapter one: Warm up
Chapter Two: Gound Mobility and Evasion Techniques
Chapter Three: Ground Kicks
Chapter Four: Evasive Footwork
Chapter Five: Partner Kicking Drills
Chapter Six: Takedowns
Volume 2
Chapter 7: Ground vs Stand up
Chapter 8: Stand up vs Ground
Chapter 9: Takedown Sumbrada
Chapter 10: Silhig series
Chapter 11: Karasak Series
Chapter 12: Combinations
Extra: Ikat


If you have a question about the content of Guro Inosanto's Madjapahit/  Maphilindo Silat  or what style silat the JKD students get to train in, this would be an excellent place to start.

Watch it with an open mind....it may not be "your style of silat" or "How you do it" but I think you will find the material and the presentation to be enjoyable .

With Respect
Doc

[SundaWarrior]

Salam Guru Dority,

I actually had the pleasure of training with Guru Suzanne on my second visit to the Inosanto Academy.  She is a very good Silat
player and she really seems to be more into the traditional side. At the time she was teaching from the Wali Songo curriculum.  My first trip to the academy I took the Silat class with Guro Dan Inosanto.  He was teaching just technique from Maphalindo.  It was a good experience and like you said a lot of humble people at the academy.
Please give Maha Guru DeBordes my regards.

Hormat,
Nicholas

[nasigoreng]

respects,

MMA=Mixed martial arts (UFC/Pride combining grapping with striking)
JKD= Jeet Kun DO
MA=Martial Art
SD=self defence
PS=Pencak Silat
TMA= Traditional Martial art (Karate, kungfu, PS, Judo, tae kwon do, etc..)
BJJ= Brazilian jiu-jitsu

I think the divide between MMA/JKD and TMA is that the former use a kind of 'scientific research' model to study, test, analyze, and adapt.

This approach allows for all kinds of different radicals to be thrown into the mix: New techniques, strategies, environments, etc....  with the goal of finding practical solutions to different problems. In this case, MMA isn't training for SD but for different facets of their competition (stand-up, clinch, side control,etc...) .

Obviously, experimentation and evolution are a part of every MA but the pace is much faster now in Western countries because different styles are taught openly allowing people to cross-train. Then there's the exposure to all these arts through different media including the internet. Even forums like this one play a role in the process of sharing knowledge. Next, there's the usage of training equipment which allows people to train with more resistance and harder contact so they can test a technique's efficacy.

Another aspect of the 'scientific approach' is the dissolution of the teacher's "pre-eminent" nature.  JKD teachers are typically very open minded and willing to try something new without the fear of  'losing face' . For example, Guru Inosanto had no problem putting on a white belt to train BJJ with the Machados.  My JKD instructor actually joked that he trained his students to beat him because he wanted to work on his weakest skills.   

 
On the other hand:

I've studied several MAs (including  PS) and I've found some faults in all of them. What I'm seeing now is JKDschools using the MMA competitive sporting event as their new paradigm ... their new standard. This is wrong because it's not SD.   

My second criticism is that when someone studies savate, boxing, BJJ, kali, and PS , their heads can be so mixed up if they are in a real situation because they won't know what to do. I've experienced this problem first hand and that altercation changed the way I approach my SD training.
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitBlauer_HicksLaw.mov

Finally, JKD training can become boring because it's so one-dimensional (punch the bags, kick the bags, spar). And focusing on mma-type fighting neglects the SD basics like eye jabs, and other vital strikes.  I think the cultural/artistic elements of a  TMA (forms, kembangan) aren't useless; they can offer a different kind of conditioning that helps keep the body healthy as a player gets older. One scary chacteristic about silat players is that they seem to get stronger as they get older.

however, if we all followed tradition(adat) strictly, then there wouldn't be PS classes available anywhere because it would have to remain secret and it would be an insult to accept money in exchange for this knowledge.

 

ciao

[Rebo Paing]

... snip ...
My second criticism is that when someone studies savate, boxing, BJJ, kali, and PS , their heads can be so mixed up if they are in a real situation because they won't know what to do. I've experienced this problem first hand and that altercation changed the way I approach my SD training.

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitBlauer_HicksLaw.mov
.. snip ...

I totally agree where you're coming from Ray.

Good link BTW, I like the way they talk of capitalising on natural reflex .. 'the flinch'.
There is a distinct difference between learning many techniques and absorbing principle.
If principle is understood, one can often see it exists in many different versions of the martial arts, including silat i.e. it is foundational to 'technique' and is usually very simple.
IMO it can be valuable to cross reference with another 'style' to re-inforce an understanding of principle. Of course if we are blindly focused on the mechanics without understanding governing principle ... it's like knowing how to use a word processor but without knowing it's relationship to the operating system ... good analogy? Hmmm .. maybe not  .

Salam,
Krisno

[Doc D]

I have a passing curiousity ...and maybe someone knows the story. When the first UFC came out, I remember seeing some short clips of the preliminary events and trials and one person featured under "the exotics", if I recall , appeared to be a silat stylist. Did a silat player try out for the first UFC ??....if so, how did it go?? At that time ,folks were still pretty entrenched in "style" rather than "striker vs grappler".

with respect,
Doc

[nasigoreng]

Selamat,

I totally agree where you're coming from Ray.

Thanks Krisno.  Because Humans have the same natural weapons (2 arms and legs) and we are all bound by the rules of physics, there must be some similiar principles in all martial arts.

Another thought: JKD and Krav Maga are relatively new and their proponents grew up in cities or urban areas  . Because people are a product of their environment, this could also play a role in their martial philosophy. The cities are usually more violent than the smaller countryside towns and villages. and cityfolk don't usually walk around with machetes (golok).



 

Did a silat player try out for the first UFC ??....if so, how did it go??

 It was in UFC2. I think it was a preliminary bout so it wasn't on the main card. I rented the tape from Blockbuster but apparently that match isn't on all versions of the tape (maybe it's some kind of special addition tape).

I don't know the fighter's background but the style he used in the fight looked like either harimau or javanese pemacan (lots of low postures).

He was paired against a Muay Thai fighter.  The pesilat closed in and crouched down to draw the attack. The Muay Thai fighter just blasted him with low kicks, knocking him off balance and trapping him against the fence. either the ref stopped the fight or his team threw in the towel.

He should have hid some rocks in his sarung  

[DasaMan]

I've studied several MAs (including  PS) and I've found some faults in all of them. What I'm seeing now is JKDschools using the MMA competitive sporting event as their new paradigm ... their new standard. This is wrong because it's not SD.   

Hi,

What response would you give to the Straight Blast Gym people? Here we have a group that's basically JKD, using MMA framework, for SD. Their rationale is that MMA is the tool, SD is the purpose. Since MMA is arguably tested to be quantitatively effective training method, then it is natural to use it for training SD.

I myself can see some logic to that reason; there are purposes, and there are many tools, each with their own merit, to achieve said purposes. The main thing is not to lose sight of the purpose and become too focused on the tools, so as not fall to the 'having a hammer and looking at all problems as nails' conundrum.

My second criticism is that when someone studies savate, boxing, BJJ, kali, and PS , their heads can be so mixed up if they are in a real situation because they won't know what to do. I've experienced this problem first hand and that altercation changed the way I approach my SD training.

Ah, the classic cross-training mess

[DasaMan]

He should have hid some rocks in his sarung  

Or something else totally suicidal, such as running straight into the opponent with arms double covering his head, just like Royce did

[Rebo Paing]

... The main thing is not to lose sight of the purpose and become too focused on the tools, so as not fall to the 'having a hammer and looking at all problems as nails' conundrum.
...

Wo!! This is very x2 true.

Reminds me of a story that goes something like this ... A sufi master was rowing down a river (somewhere) and heard the ululation of a sufi chant coming from one of the islands on the river. Except for a slight mispronounciation, the chant was otherwise perfect and indicated that the person chanting had perfect grasp of the material. Feeling that it was his duty, the sufi master approached the island and congratulated the island sufi (who had taught himself) for his near flawless performance ... except he let him know that the pronounciation was a little off, and supplied the correction.
The sufi master left feeling that he had done his good deed for the day.
The next day as he was rowing down the same river, the sufi master heard a faltering chant, which started, stoped and started again. Curious at the change in quality from yesterday's performance, he visited the island sufi again. As soon as the island sufi saw the master he said in an exasperated manner, "how was that pronounciation thing you showed me yesterday again?" ... Heheh.

To not focus on the tools is the first big hurdle in personal development.

Salam,
Krisno

[DasaMan]

To not focus on the tools is the first big hurdle in personal development.

Aye, there's the rub.

But, nevertheless, comparing tool against tool:

Without the moral codes, without the adat, strictly out from technical and physical training perspectives, how would silat compare with MMA?

Assume that the mental training there are in both is simply from the hardship of the physical aspects of the arts. And assume that the tools are used for SD purposes. Assume comparatively similar training schedules.

How would this comparison turn out? Academically, of course.

I myself would acknowledge that any MMA player who trains regularly can pummel me (with my extraordinaryly limited silat experience) into pulp, should I and one such player happen to schuffle (is that a word) in a dark alley somewhere.

Because, you have to admit, that's the only case the MMA scene is actually making. The case about the claim on the more efficient and effetive physical training that is offered as of this date.

[Rebo Paing]

Aye, there's the rub.

But, nevertheless, comparing tool against tool:

Without the moral codes, without the adat, strictly out from technical and physical training perspectives, how would silat compare with MMA?
...

Well, imo MMA is silat with it's own set of codes. Every human alive has some set of moral codes/ code of ethics they live by. It's just that other people might not agree to each other's codes ... and you can't compare something with itself  .

Now if we compare it to existing traditional silat, that's another thing. People will be attracted to each for different reasons imo. It's difficult to 'prove' the effectiveness of one against the other, particularly if one is 'designed' for tourney. For example, I'd hate to have to fight by the Queensbury Rules ... no hitting below the belt, no giong for the nuts, the knees and no eye-gouging ... how do you gouge with gloves on?
I think though that MMA provides a more realistic environment in the modern paradigm for those who want to try their mettle .. in a purely physical sense.

But ... most traditional silat and even traditional MA in general is about the whole package, the physical as well as the metaphysical. Indeed the aim of some silat is transcendance to a higher spiritual awareness using silat as a tool. And here we definitely have the situation where we need to focus on the end game, and not on the tool (silat).

Salam,
Krisno

NB .. adding to the idea of 'testing' .. my own 'silat' is a survival tool for me mainly based on Hsing I. When I was in the army, I was a sniper, so my paradigm in the modern sense was to dominate from a distance. Nowadays I get to mix it up occassionally face to face .. but again, most of the time it's with drunken patrons ... no biggie. But faced with a proffessinal MMA fighter who is fresh? Well, grappling is not my strong point and I think I'd go for the dominating from a distance thing, or use a VERY BIG stick heheh.

[DasaMan]

Well, imo MMA is silat with it's own set of codes. Every human alive has some set of moral codes/ code of ethics they live by. It's just that other people might not agree to each other's codes ... and you can't compare something with itself  .

Speaking of MMA being silat, there is a certain trainer from Padepokan Pencak Silat TMII who 3 years ago wanted to make a rough formulation of silat jurus suitable for MMA and grappling competitions. I wonder what happened to that project? Probably died a silent death of non-support, I suppose.

Now if we compare it to existing traditional silat, that's another thing. People will be attracted to each for different reasons imo. It's difficult to 'prove' the effectiveness of one against the other, particularly if one is 'designed' for tourney.

Regarding that design thing... In a way, the US Army and Marine Corps have 'proved' the viability of MMA framework for H2H combat in Afhanistan and Iraq. There are numerous accounts of soldiers testifying to the effectiveness of Modern Combatives (the newest US armed forces H2H combat program, based on Gracie-flavored MMA and some modern arnis thrown in for weapons work) in saving lives and limbs in the line of duty.

That's MMA in actual, verifiable, modern day confrontation. And scientifically reproducible, I suppose. Reversely, is there any record available of actual modern day usage of any TMA in the battlefield?

For example, I'd hate to have to fight by the Queensbury Rules ... no hitting below the belt, no giong for the nuts, the knees and no eye-gouging ... how do you gouge with gloves on?

You can gouge eyes, actually, if you choose to. And gloves CUT. EASILY. You get more cutting with boxing gloves, more gouging with the new MMA gloves. I gouged once (no permanent harm done) and got cut just below the eye several times. Not fun. And when you control the clinch game, the option of headbutting and eye-gouging becomes solely yours and never the opponent. Nasty, if done correctly.

Because, again, the clinch is the TOOL. To headbutt and to gouge is the PURPOSE.

But ... most traditional silat and even traditional MA in general is about the whole package, the physical as well as the metaphysical. Indeed the aim of some silat is transcendance to a higher spiritual awareness using silat as a tool. And here we definitely have the situation where we need to focus on the end game, and not on the tool (silat).

Now that is a summary of the reason why MMA players and traditional players WILL NEVER meet eye-to-eye during discussion of the merits and failing of each.

In retrospect, MMA is very much leaning heavy towards the TOOL spectrum, while TMA is in a nutshell a journey towards a PURPOSE.

the conundrum that the MMA scene presents to the TMA scene is thusly: if one is not that keen of the PURPOSE, why bother?

I believe traditional players who are already aware of the PURPOSE should just let it slide and continue on, and those that arent' that keen (or, heavin forbid, not aware) of the PURPOSE enough to get annoyed by the MMA scene... well, try on the shoes and walk in it for a mile or so. If at the end it still annoys you, at least you have a spare pair of shoes.

I know several from this forum are dusting those shoes for play from time to time

[Rebo Paing]

...

I believe traditional players who are already aware of the PURPOSE should just let it slide and continue on, and those that arent' that keen (or, heavin forbid, not aware) of the PURPOSE enough to get annoyed by the MMA scene... well, try on the shoes and walk in it for a mile or so. If at the end it still annoys you, at least you have a spare pair of shoes.

I know several from this forum are dusting those shoes for play from time to time

Agreed DasaMan ... Mas Ery? You make a good point.
I have done some Judo (a long time ago). Nothing fantastic nor prolonged, but I surprise myself from time to time that some things have stuck in my body memory.
I might just have to try on those shoes you're talking about. I don't think there's BJJ in my neighbourhood, but I believe there's JuJitsu  .

Salam,
Krisno

[Rebo Paing]

Regarding that design thing... In a way, the US Army and Marine Corps have 'proved' the viability of MMA framework for H2H combat in Afhanistan and Iraq. There are numerous accounts of soldiers testifying to the effectiveness of Modern Combatives (the newest US armed forces H2H combat program, based on Gracie-flavored MMA and some modern arnis thrown in for weapons work) in saving lives and limbs in the line of duty.

This has bothered me a bit. I've worked with some units from the Marines and the U.S. Army (82nd Airborne, Tropic Lightning and with U.S. Army Ranger personnel) in the past ... and I can't say that I was overly impressed, with the exception of the Rangers and the Marine snipers with whom we shared some common ground. I've worked with British Gurkha's in Malaysia as well, and I'll bet a BJJ tackle wouldn't fare too well being sliced and diced by a kukri wielding Gurkha.
I know that I'm generalising here and that is a deadly sin, but IMO most soldiers (as well as old soldiers!) do seem to be prone to believing their own hyperbole at times. War stories tend to stretch with the telling  .
Notice too that both in Iraq and in Afghanistan, it appears that a rag-tag of militia's have held up to a super-power, and it also appears that they will regain their autonomy too one day. So what style of MA are they using for close quarter work?

The fact is that these are 'accounts' and are no more verifiable than other 'accounts' of the use of close personal combat techniques from WWII, The Struggle for Indonesian Independance, Korea and Vietnam. All these conflicts have their share of 'verifiable' accounts.

Even when caught on helmet cam ... the thing is that the 'enemy combatant' is more often probably than not, some poor hapless individual caught in the crossfire, at the wrong place at the wrong time, who is most likely scared absolutely shitless and as maleable as a rag doll on a wet Sunday. 'Collateral', such a cynical expression.

Please note that I'm not disagreeing as to the veracity of BJJ/MMA technique as a potent art, but to the passing of fact which in this case is dubious to me.

That's MMA in actual, verifiable, modern day confrontation. And scientifically reproducible, I suppose. Reversely, is there any record available of actual modern day usage of any TMA in the battlefield?

Well, if you can believe the veracity of historical accounts I'd have to say that many traditional Pencak Silat aliran had their moments of glory during the struggle for Independance, and if you can believe the Chinese, it appears that Hsing I and Baguazhang also had quite an outing during WWII within their respective regions.

However ... and it's an important 'however' ... having said all of the above, if I were to have to re-tool today, then I would be leaning to combining Hsing I with BJJ as two relatively easy to learn and effective combat systems with practical currency in the real world.

In the "Sharing Technique" thread you also mention that Aikido is the progeny of Jujutsu. I have heard also that it is highly probable that its the part progeny of the CMA big three internal arts as well  .

Salam,
Krisno