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Author Topic: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.  (Read 20387 times)

DasaMan

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #60 on: 06/12/2007 17:16 »
Before I started studying Silat, I had my own 'wake up call' about reality fighting. I picked a fight with a very big security guard at a bar (a bouncer), and his friend attacked me from behind. I got choked out from behind, while the other guy blasted me.

Bouncer's fight in groups.

That's a known fact.

Going up against one without realizing there are others in the first place is well... more foolish than an MMAist taking down another patron at a local club here in Jakarta :D At least in the latter there are chances that the opposing patron has no backup :D

DasaMan

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #61 on: 06/12/2007 17:46 »
Also, if you haven't fought in the ring with er.....a referee, gloves, rules etc. etc. you will never be able to defend yourself in a real situation, probably just freez up and pee yourself......

Well, they do have a point on 'testing your wares' on 'limited scale' before deploying it to 'the real world.'

You know that what works in limited scale WILL break in the real world, but you can always work around it.

The problem arise when the 'limited scale' somehow lost sight of 'the real world.'

Then no matter what works in limited scale, your wares will simply be irrelevant.

Now, how do you relate the limited scale with the real world?

Do the MMAists really lost sight of the real world, so that their wares are irrelevant?

Do the 'traditionalists' put too much emphasis on the real world that they really don't have any method to test their wares in limited scale?

Both are wrong, because they are extremes.

What's there in the vast middle that hits the nail?

Russian Silat

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #62 on: 06/12/2007 17:56 »
Hello Dasa Man,

My only excuse is that I was young and inexperienced.

Life tends to teach us what we need to know.

-Fyodor

Michael Lee

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #63 on: 06/12/2007 23:10 »
Greetings

I wrote an article for my Russian website on this topic. It's already been well-discussed here, but I offer it anyway.

Training Lethal Techniques

I am writing this article in response to a growing concern that people in the martial arts world have about training lethal techniques.

Over the years I have spoken with martial artists from a variety of backgrounds, and a theme is emerging in our discourse which goes something like, “it’s better to train an art you can use full-force in practice, because this is realistic”.

The assumption here is that some arts are “theoretical” and others are immediate. I will leave it to your imagination who created this dichotomy, and for what purpose.

The usual argument goes something like, “If I train in boxing or MMA, I can apply my techniques full force, but if I train how to stab someone, maim them, destroy their joints, how do I know it works? Aren’t I just pretending?”

On the face of it this seems like a valid concern, but as with most things in life, people rarely consider the wider picture.

The principle behind all forms of training is that you condition your body to respond during a critical situation. You imprint the form of an action, and if the imprint has been successful, this knowledge will emerge when needed.

Martial sports enthusiasts do not train themselves for crisis situations. What they do is done during a non-critical state of mind, and is meant to be expressed while in a non-critical state of mind. If something happens to put them into a crisis, they will not be able to respond as they should.

For example: MMA fighters train to fight only one opponent, usually a buddy, unarmed, on a soft surface, the whole time under the guidance of a referee who can stop the fight. Also, they are trained to stop fighting if they are told to, or if the opponent is suffering or cries out. This is the conditioning they receive.

What will happen to the martial skills of an MMA fighter if suddenly someone stabs them? What if they lose an eye, or break a bone? What if a second opponent attacks them, either during or right after fighting the first? What if some old lady starts yelling “stop fighting”? What if the opponent uses illegal techniques they aren’t used to dealing with, such as targeting the throat, eyes and groin? What if they get bitten?

The list of “what if’s” could go on. The point is that all of these things will cause the sport fighter to lose it. On the other hand, programmed techniques will always come to the forefront, because the critical situation is their special time to emerge.

Another thing which people don’t think about is that training for lethal, crisis fighting has been happening for thousands of years. People who have to fight to kill always train lethal techniques. How do they do it? They do drills. Be it fighting movements, bayonet attack, artillery procedure, or nuclear protocol, the universal and time-tested approach has been repetitive drilling.

I have seen the film “300” recently, and I wonder how those ancient Spartans trained. Did they say, “well, we can’t realistically practice running each other through with spears, so let’s just box and wrestle”.

Military specialists (such as SCARS training) who actually train special operations forces to kill, use repetition to imprint lethal techniques. Movements are at first done slowly and deliberately, so the learner understands on a kinesthetic level what they are doing. Then the techniques are done closer to speed. Because it is meant to simulate reality, the opponent is a crucial element in the training. The opponent must simulate the effects of the technique, pretending to be hit if a hit is intended, doubling over if hit in the groin, etc. When the techniques are fully internalized, then it is possible to improvise during free movement, and such movement will be relevant, not just flailing around.

Obviously, such training is theoretical ONLY IF IT HAS NOT BEEN DEVELOPED DURING ACTUAL COMBAT. But if someone has real combat experience, they can create such training methods realistically. Our art, for example, represents the combat experience of generations of masters. None of what we do was dreamed up by someone sitting in his kitchen, as I heard some Jurus in another art were.

Now anyone who has studied the circle of creation and the training strategies of Pukulan Cimande Pusaka will understand why we do what we do, and will understand the genius of the lethal masters who gave us this training, and why we refuse to alter it. 

Training in Pukulan Cimande Pusaka is ALWAYS done in an altered state of consciousness. This is the whole purpose of the drum music, the kembagan, the cultural elements, the meditations. All of it is meant to open the door to the subconscious, such that the techniques can be imprinted. When a traditional Silat fighter is practicing kembagan, it may look like a dance, but in their imagination they are destroying other human beings.

We practice fighting combinations, which can be performed repetitively. When we have accomplished internalization, we can then do slow-sparring effectively, and when I say “slow sparring” this could mean anything ranging from ultra-slow to near combat speed, depending on the needs of the practitioners. If it is sloppy or ineffective, it must be slower, if it is clean, it can be as fast as possible.

We also do real-time sparring, and it’s not for the faint-hearted. No pads, hard floors, and one minute to wreak havoc.

Unique to our art is the circle of creation. This is the ultimate way to train techniques, using the spiritual powers of the elements and animals to give an extra-physical dimension to what we do. In the west, the technique is imagined, with the birthing energy of the water element. Then in the south, the technique is practiced physically, harnessing the physicality of the earth. In the east, the fire element gives us the energy, aggression and decisiveness needed to employ the moves in an attack, and in the north, the move is actually done on an opponent.

This training builds up layers of knowledge inside of us, and actually creates a metaphysical condition of the technique having already been done successfully. It isn’t easy for the average sport enthusiast to understand or accept, which is why they will avoid it and instead cling to excuses and assumptions. 

We have a technology for training lethal skills which is light-years ahead of what the average enthusiast is aware of. Again, I invite you to come see for yourself if you feel you have the capacity for it.

I actually like martial sports very much. They are fun to watch on television, fun to participate in, they’re good exercise, and provide for some good expression of testosterone. My favorite is probably boxing, which I have a lot of respect for. And it can be used for fighting if need be. The average guy can get a lot out of martial sports- it’s a safe way to fight, express you aggression and need for competition, you can test your limits, build your strength, and maybe have something to make you feel more confident on the street.

But don’t confuse it with the lethal training of an art form. When you train to kill, using a multi-dimensional art form, it’s something different, and special. It’s for the elite.

My grandpa always told me to use the right tool for the right job. He gave me an old bolt-action .22 rifle when I was a kid, and it’s good for shooting cans, or maybe hunting rabbits. If I had to, I suppose I could use it to defend myself, but I’d rather have a sawed-off shotgun, or an Uzi. And just like it’s illegal to hunt rabbits with an Uzi, it’s also inappropriate to use Pukulan Cimande Pusaka in a sporting application.

In short, train for what you want. If you feel you need a sport hobby which maybe can cross over into real life combat, then train for that, and I wish you well. If you want to cultivate a rare and subtle art form which is based upon killing multiple armed opponents, which has fascinating magical and spiritual dimensions, you are welcome to Pukulan Cimande Pusaka.




Once again Fyodor, thank you for your insightful explanation of PCP.  You cleary put it into words better than I ever could! 

Again... welcome to the forum my friend!

Michael

Gajah

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #64 on: 07/12/2007 01:14 »
Quote
Well, they do have a point on 'testing your wares' on 'limited scale' before deploying it to 'the real world.'

Of course, I have no problem there at all.....but I've never really said MMA wont work.....just that when they start saying things like this...

Quote
Oh, and another thing. If he has a knife, and you don't, a lot of it is going to be about grappling- for the simple reason that there's no other realistic way to control your opponent's weapon. And isn't grappling very much something that MMA emphasises?

Hmmm, I think rolling around on the floor with an attacker with a knife is a very bad idea ::)

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Careful, you're about to offend a lot of people in the OTHER forum  *nudge nudge wink wink*

Hehehe, all of those fragile egos :P

Anyway, 'what of those in the military or police that do not fight in the ring but have faced dealt with and survived real life situations?' says I, 'what of the psychological aspect?'

But nay sir, 'tis not a patch on an MMA competition....

Quote
You'd be surprised how intimidated you get when you're about to enter a real competition. If anything, it's even more frightening than the 'real' fights I've been in. The kind of psychological buildup and pressure to win that exists in competitions has no parallel in the real world.

C'mon, surely we need a comedy MMA quotes thread ;D

DasaMan

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #65 on: 08/12/2007 13:53 »
Quote
Oh, and another thing. If he has a knife, and you don't, a lot of it is going to be about grappling- for the simple reason that there's no other realistic way to control your opponent's weapon. And isn't grappling very much something that MMA emphasises?
Hmmm, I think rolling around on the floor with an attacker with a knife is a very bad idea ::)

Grappling as in groundfighting against a knife is bad. Grappling as in immobilizing his knife wielding hand so that he can't use it on you, is somewhat a better idea.

Most do this anyway, no specific MMA thingy here.

 

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