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Author Topic: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.  (Read 20109 times)

SundaWarrior

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What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« on: 26/08/2007 21:02 »
Salam Everyone,

I just wanted to know your thoughts on Mixed Martial arts.  This is very big in the United States and I think it has some serious problems.  The major problem I see with mixing martial arts is the loss of the cultures and traditions behind whichever
martial art is being studied.  I know of some schools in the US that say they do Pencak Silat but the only Silat I see when I watch them is maybe a few techniques from Silat.  They don't focus on things like jurus,lankah,etc..  This becomes a problem because when new students are wanting to learn Pencak Silat they go to these MMA schools and instead of Pure Silat they are given mixes of MuayThai/Kali/Silat/KravMaga.  So right away these new students are exposed
to a form of hybridized Silat.  I have heard people say they prefer mixed martial arts because it teaches them how to fight on all levels.  They have no idea that
Pencak Silat also teaches fighting on all levels.  This is why I think this forum is so important because in America the "culture" of martial arts is starting to die out and be replaced by a new generation of mixed martial artists.  Any thoughts about this?

Nicholas 
The Association of Pencak Silat America - "Promoting Brotherhood Within US Pencak Silat"

Guru Penglima Warrior Tea

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #1 on: 26/08/2007 21:36 »
Salaam Nick,

I don't disagree with MMA as a sport.  I think the people who do MMA are in it for the sport aspect and not necessarily for any deeper reasons.  I also think that a person who is looking for a physical/spiritual/cultural discipline will seek a TMA.  The problem is when we try to compare MMA fighters against TMA practitioners, which is like apples and oranges.  A common fallacy in the U.S. is that the measure of a martial art is how well it does in the cage.

It's interesting to watch these 'trends'.  1970's - Kung fu; 1980's - Ninjas; 1990's - Brazillian grappling; and now MMA.  I wonder what's next?  :o

GURU PENGLIMA WARRIOR TEACHER

Ranggalana

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #2 on: 26/08/2007 21:56 »
Salam Everyone,

I just wanted to know your thoughts on Mixed Martial arts.  This is very big in the United States and I think it has some serious problems.  The major problem I see with mixing martial arts is the loss of the cultures and traditions behind whichever
martial art is being studied.  I know of some schools in the US that say they do Pencak Silat but the only Silat I see when I watch them is maybe a few techniques from Silat.  They don't focus on things like jurus,lankah,etc..  This becomes a problem because when new students are wanting to learn Pencak Silat they go to these MMA schools and instead of Pure Silat they are given mixes of MuayThai/Kali/Silat/KravMaga.  So right away these new students are exposed
to a form of hybridized Silat.  I have heard people say they prefer mixed martial arts because it teaches them how to fight on all levels.  They have no idea that
Pencak Silat also teaches fighting on all levels.  This is why I think this forum is so important because in America the "culture" of martial arts is starting to die out and be replaced by a new generation of mixed martial artists.  Any thoughts about this?

Nicholas 

Apa khabar Nicholas?

I think that silat is one of the first MMAs. The difference with the made in the USA MMA is the adat, the culture surrounding it. The Adat of USA MMA in my mind is a continuation of the Don King type of boxing, which is capitalism.

Maybe TMAs including silat will become less popular in that most kids will want to be an MMA fighter but that would not neccessarily be a bad thing. What i am more worried about is when TMAs like silat adopt the MMA adat and proclaim themselves to be the deadliest, the most lethal ect. That will tarnish the image of silat.

Taking some techniques from silat is fine and if it gets people good money in the cage, good for them! I can't see silat singing its swan song yet, with people like you and other sahabat, silat will continue to live and develop.

Tetap Semangat!

Bram.

batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

SundaWarrior

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #3 on: 26/08/2007 22:01 »
Salam GPWT,

I have to admit though, when Revenge of the Ninja and American Ninja came
out I was hooked on being a Ninja.  I bought the whole outfit,sword,throwing stars, and I was only about 9 years old.  How I ever convinced my parents to
buy me a sword I still don't know???  I agree though, there are definitely trends.
Maybe somebody should make a bunch of Silat movies.  I have actually thought
about looking into making this happen.  The problem is they would have to properly
portray Pencak Silat and not use any of those hollywood special effects.

Hormat,

Nicholas
The Association of Pencak Silat America - "Promoting Brotherhood Within US Pencak Silat"

Ranggalana

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #4 on: 26/08/2007 22:10 »
......Maybe somebody should make a bunch of Silat movies.  I have actually thought
about looking into making this happen.  The problem is they would have to properly
portray Pencak Silat and not use any of those hollywood special effects.

Hormat,

Nicholas

Salam Nick!

Lets all hope that Steve Benitez and his Hendon crew DO get their Dark Eden film finished and that it is as good as they are good pesilat. Then we will have one international film featuring pencak silat with aromas of Minangkabau and Sunda in each scene.

Satria (Martin) posts here and is also working on the Dark Eden film. he said that the planned release date is 08/08/08... so not long to go now.

Salam hangat,
Bram

batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

SundaWarrior

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #5 on: 26/08/2007 22:11 »
Mas Bram,

Saya baik sekali teman saya dan anda?

I agree with your thoughts completely and unfortunately I am already seeing MMA adat taking over in some cases.  To the point where I have asked MMA practitioners what system a particular principle caim from and their reply would be
"I don't really know"   :(  Scary right.  It would be a great tragedy if Silat or any martial art had to sing the swan's song.  I will do my best to never let that happen.

Hormat,

Nicholas
The Association of Pencak Silat America - "Promoting Brotherhood Within US Pencak Silat"

SundaWarrior

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #6 on: 26/08/2007 22:18 »
Mas Bram,

In the past I have had mixed feelings about Mr. Benitez but as the years pass
he seems to be doing better things.  My concern with him was some things he was
saying like he had "the fastest hands in the world" and that Pencak Silat is a billion dollar industry.  I don't know too much about him though.  I did get a chance to train in Wali Songo Silat when I was in LA a few years back. Very nice system.

Nicholas
The Association of Pencak Silat America - "Promoting Brotherhood Within US Pencak Silat"

Gajah

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #7 on: 26/08/2007 22:24 »
Salam guys,

I think MMA can be a kind of quick fix. A great product for the me generation :'(

It has almost evolved into something that considers itself to be more effective than everything else and therefore beyond criticism :w. There are plenty out there saying just this ::)

IMO, I also think a great deal of it has as much to do with entertainment as effectiveness. I know there is the relentless 'proved in the ring' answer to any criticism but what have you really got? 2 meatheads brawling in a ring/cage [kodok]

To be honest I think much of the alleged effectiveness is down to the fact all of these guys are very fit and enormous. Would it be as effective if you are a small skinny guy, or how about a bit fat and unfit like myself :) I doubt it.

There is also the misnomer that what works in the ring will work in a real life situation. It wont always! in the ring you have a sanitised environment and a limited number of potential situations, real life isn't like that.

Rant over....MMA great for 18 stone meatheads but not really for me..

Anyway most styles of silat work on all levels and have an answer for most situations.




Gajah

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #8 on: 26/08/2007 22:38 »
Hey about 6 posts sneaked in while I was writing [polisi] :)

Quote
What i am more worried about is when TMAs like silat adopt the MMA adat

LOL can you imagine it, "Hell yeah I whooped your God damned ass" every time someone pulled off a decent sapu [lucu]

Or maybe we'd have to do it Jakarta style,"Gua sepak pantat lu"

Sorry,butI now I have an image in my head of how training would be [lucu]

Ranggalana

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #9 on: 26/08/2007 22:52 »
Mas Bram,

In the past I have had mixed feelings about Mr. Benitez but as the years pass
he seems to be doing better things.  My concern with him was some things he was
saying like he had "the fastest hands in the world" and that Pencak Silat is a billion dollar industry.  I don't know too much about him though.  I did get a chance to train in Wali Songo Silat when I was in LA a few years back. Very nice system.

Nicholas

Hello Nick,

Yes, I understand what you are talking about, and I hope that Steve stops getting himself involved with statements like that as they are rather silly. I know him a little and have had several discussions with him and I believe that he doesn't really mean to be bombastic, just that he is a London boy and was brought up in the city where capitalism was invented so sometimes .... cringe-cringe. In fact he is open to discussion and will change his perceptions on things ... for example, in language. In this he is VERY different from Oh My God Sanders.

In Indonesia Steve studied silat in Central Jawa, West Jawa, and in Minang land, and his Indonesian language reflects that. I have corrected him on terms several times and he was receptive and took what I said in good faith. I truly respect the way he has improved Hendon's youth culture and ALL his students I have met (more than 10) are good athletes and humble people. He used to think that 'jurusan' was the Indonesian for playing jurus in a 2-man situation (from a Sunda-nesian perspective, main-jurusan can mean to play around with jurus) but in Indonesian Jurusan means direction (like a bus direction).  He also used to think that Deta (Minang for head wrap) was Indonesian while actually the more common Indonesian word would be Destar (from Jawanese) ... Taking on board critisism like this from me, a simple market trader, make me think that he is OK though sometimes somethings he says or is assosciated with do make me cringe, the overall reality of his work leaves no other option for me but to respect him. In fact, I like him.

Several Indonesians are still upset about him but I think that any mistakes he has made are honest cultural mistakes. I tend to stand up for him when Indonesians get upset with things that he says. I know people who have fallen out with him (my friends too) and I have heard bad things about him. In the past people were VERY upset with the name Walisongo silat and I discussed it with him. He was taken aback, he thought that he was honoring Walisongo when people thought he was insulting their legacy, and you know what he did, he told me over a coffee in Hendon that he was going to change the name of what he did, and call it Satria Fighting Arts - which includes what he calls Walisongo silat. See the difference in the quality of character compared to Sanders?

Steve is still young, he is a very good pesilat  and for me the most important test for a pesilat is WHAT DO YOU DO FOR YOUR IMMEDIATE COMMUNITY? For all Steves failings, man he is still young but he has done a lot of good for his community. I hope he improves as he gets older and I am sure that he will.

In fact I am sure that if anyone has any bones to pick with him here, Satria (Martin) will allert him to people's concerns and I think that I can guarantee that he will respond with good faith.

Salam hangat,
Bram.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

SundaWarrior

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #10 on: 26/08/2007 23:38 »
Mas Bram,

I agree.  Mr. Benitez seems like a humble person and he plays Pencak very well.
I think that is great that he was willing to switch the name to Satria Fighting Arts
that shows his true character.  He is doing a phenominal job at promoting Silat in
Europe and now it is spreading to the U.S. as well.  I wish him the best and would like to meet him sometime - maybe next time he hosts a seminar in L.A.

Hormat,
Nicholas 
The Association of Pencak Silat America - "Promoting Brotherhood Within US Pencak Silat"

f4iz

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #11 on: 26/08/2007 23:42 »
Salam Everyone,
I just wanted to know your thoughts on Mixed Martial arts.  This is very big in the United States and I think it has some serious problems.  The major problem I see with mixing martial arts is the loss of the cultures and traditions behind whichever
martial art is being studied.
Salam ..Hi Nick
I know a few people who prefers MMA compared to Silat or any other traditional arts. The reason is just as you stated Nick, "It teaches one to fight in all levels". Furthermore, not everyone is interested in culture or adat. Like someone said to me "Adat/tradition will not help you when you get attacked by an enemy."
In some cases Adat/Tradition has overtaken martial arts so that it has become more arts than martial.
I think the reason we see some gado-2x Silat (mixed Salad Silat) in US is because of the way it was introduced in the US.
I remember when Pak Herman introduced Mande Muda Silat in US, there were alot of JKD folks (including Dan Inonsanto, Burton Richardson, etc) who became his students. Now, I could be wrong, but these students had their own system/styles. They learned from Pak Herman so that they can add it to their own system.
Also, the way the art was taught was it went straight to Buah/Application rather than the foundation, the jurus, the kembangan, etc. The reasoning is that alot of these folks already had martial arts background and the teacher wanted to spread the art rapidly.
It's kinda  sad because I remember in the early 90s, Mande Muda Silat and Pak Herman was so popular in the US. After his passing we rarely hear about Mande Muda.

In my IMHO, traditional arts takes a longer time to learn than MMA. It's like comparing cooking Rendang to Hamburger. Rendang has more flavor and the taste last longer than Burger but also takes much more time to cook....but I like Rendang much better than Burger... I'm hungry now..Where was I going with this again ???  ;D
From observation, I think people who prefers MMA is primarily focused on the fact that it teaches one to fight effectively quicker than TMA. It doesn't have too much of anything else except learning to fight.

For me, I like Rendang and I prefer traditional arts like Silat..teaches humility, respect, self defense, etc.

Salam,
Faiz.

SundaWarrior

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #12 on: 27/08/2007 00:04 »
Salam Faizal,

I agree.  People want to be "Bruce Lee in a day" so to speak.  MMA can make you
a well rounded fighter but you have to step back and look at it from a Silat prospective.  Pak Herman taught Mande Muda techniques mostly because that is
what the American people wanted to learn.  I personally would have asked to see jurus or bunga.  The problem with technique is that "technique is mechanical."  The chances that everything will go perfect in a fight and you will be able to pull a technique out of the air are slim to none.  A fight is an always changing relationship
and that was the major thing for me that separated Pencak Silat from a lot of arts.  Pencak Silat is about being able to adapt as well as move,defend,attack,etc..  The major problem with MMA isn't that it doesn't
make decent fighters.  It is the fact that it can destroy the culture and history
behind the art.  I am very hesitant when MMA practitioners tell me they want to learn Silat, then after they attend one seminar they teach their students the techniques but they never mention where the techniques came from.  They just call it MMA. 

Hormat,
Nicholas
The Association of Pencak Silat America - "Promoting Brotherhood Within US Pencak Silat"

silkroad

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #13 on: 27/08/2007 00:16 »
Rahayu Nick,

I was at one of Pak Herman's first seminars in the Midwest (Indiana?).  Sure enough we did good 'ol fashioned old style Cimande seated jurus and arm conditioning.  The result was a lot of good basics, but also sore battered arms that made most of the people not eager to attend the next seminar.

I've heard that Guru Dan Inosanto influenced Pak Herman to change the way he presented material at seminars, and that's when it changed to the Mande Muda format you speak of.  A good person to ask would be Guru Rennie Saunders www.gerakansuci.com because he studied with Pak Herman's father.

I agree though...give me the solid basics any day.

Salaam Hormat,

Silkroad
« Last Edit: 27/08/2007 01:02 by silkroad »

Gajah

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Re: What is wrong with mixed martial arts.
« Reply #14 on: 27/08/2007 00:30 »
Apologies for lowering the tone earlier, but threads have been getting very serious lately :o

Quote
A fight is an always changing relationship
and that was the major thing for me that separated Pencak Silat from a lot of arts.  Pencak Silat is about being able to adapt as well as move,defend,attack,etc.. 


Exactly Nick. One of the things that draws me to silat is adaptability. There are always more options than the simple 'counter A with B' mentality.

 

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