What is wrong with mixed martial arts.

[DasaMan]

Agreed DasaMan ... Mas Ery? You make a good point.

You can't really say that Mas Ery only dusted those shoes from time to time, since he's basically a member of Straight Blast Gym, hence, full-time MMA
 

I might just have to try on those shoes you're talking about. I don't think there's BJJ in my neighbourhood, but I believe there's JuJitsu  .

Eh, some greco/freestyle wrestling is okay too, if only for the hardwork clinch game

[DasaMan]

've worked with British Gurkha's in Malaysia as well, and I'll bet a BJJ tackle wouldn't fare too well being sliced and diced by a kukri wielding Gurkha.

That's why I used 'proved,' instead of proved Besides, most accounts on the efficacy of Modern Combatives always begin with the US servicemen getting 'jumped,' so to speak, by the locals. Being pretty much always in a prone position for them being easily jumped on like that, BJJ do show its worth. And local superiority in numbers is always a great scale tipper

And never forget, paraphrasing one prominent Aikido teacher: everything only always work against your inferior

In the "Sharing Technique" thread you also mention that Aikido is the progeny of Jujutsu. I have heard also that it is highly probable that its the part progeny of the CMA big three internal arts as well  .

There are indications, but just keeping it close enough, I was

[Rebo Paing]

...
There are indications, but just keeping it close enough, I was

Heheh DasaMan, very refreshing  .

Salam,
Krisno

[darklord]

hi..
  mixing could be nice if you find a fisic estile an complement it training another from tenaga dalam or pernafasan stile for a more complet training...
   or youst take what you need from diferent stiles acording to your preferences
 

[Michael Lee]

Interesting thread... my take on the phenomenon of MMAs is in line with what Bram said at the beginning of this thread.  I think it's really just a continuation of large promotion prize style fighting.  Brash American consumerism at it's best.   

Amongst my peers, I generally keep it quite that I enjoy practicing martial arts.  Indeed, I've lost track of how many times I've heard from co-workers, or people that I've known socially for years say something like, "What?!?!  Do you that Karate stuff?  I had no idea Michael!"  Lately, the almost universal question I'm asked immediately after I tell people that I do martial arts is, "what do you think of the MMA?"  My answer is always the same....

Those MMA guys are tough mofos!  If I were to get in the ring with them and fight with their rules, I'd surprised if I lasted more than a minute.  They are serious athletes who do a martial sport.  But being a martial sport, it's inherently different from a martial art.  To begin with, martial arts have the ability to impart upon the practitioner a way of life that’s both physically and spiritually fulfilling.  Martial sports often have the physical part in spades, but seldom have any spiritual component whatsoever.  If anything, the rank commercialism and showmanship of MMA is the opposite of spirituality. 

Besides my dislike of the image the martial sport of MMA inadvertently reflects upon martial arts, the only real problem I have with it is that people get confused in thinking that it's combat.  I’m sure all of us on this board know the standards about how MMA style fighting is ineffectual against weapons, multiple opponents, eye gouging etc... etc....  and that is where my main problem with MMA lies.  Most people who do MMA and who watch MMA, think that this is greatest martial art every invented.  As if the wheel has somehow been reinvented with good old fashion wrastlin’!! 

I recall an incident a few years ago where a personal friend of mine who was an advocate of the "all fights go the ground" “grappling is the answer” mentality.  He was at a bar and got into a dispute with someone over something dumb.  My friend proceeded to execute a flawless takedown and then went in for a choke move.  He didn't expect  the guy's 6 cousins to immediately start stomping the crap out of him.  The best part was when he complained about the hay makers they did on his head and how unfair 7 on 1 was.  hhmmmmmm....

Now if he had just whipped out a Golok……… 

Michael

[DasaMan]

He didn't expect  the guy's 6 cousins to immediately start stomping the crap out of him.  The best part was when he complained about the hay makers they did on his head and how unfair 7 on 1 was.  hhmmmmmm....

Same old, same old. We get those around here too. Now the 'victim' also advocates athletics in those situations. And I though he was a fervent subscriber to the 'stand and fight' mentality

[Gajah]

I recall an incident a few years ago where a personal friend of mine who was an advocate of the "all fights go the ground" “grappling is the answer” mentality.  .....................  He didn't expect  the guy's 6 cousins to immediately start stomping the crap out of him.  The best part was when he complained about the hay makers they did on his head and how unfair 7 on 1 was.  hhmmmmmm....

A lesson well learned then

I learnt a similar lesson in my late teens when I was stamped into a coma.

Don't believe the hype, when you take off your spandex knickers & step out of the ring the ground is not a good place to be.

The day someone shows me the effectiveness of grappling one opponent while 3 more are kicking the shite out of them, is the day I'll be convinced.

The 'all fights go to the ground' is actually a gross misrepresentation, or perhaps I should say extrapolation of reality.

So, let's say you've taken your opponent to the ground and applied an armbar-see pic! You are on your back, face up and all of your limbs are in use. Woah, look at the shot the guys friend has at your head :'(



I think to say 'in most fights someone will end up on the ground' is nearer the truth. However, this does not mean all fights go to the ground a la UFC

The problem is security & police statistics are often used to justify grapple mentality, but deliberately subduing someone on the ground usually with backup, cuffs, truncheon....etc. is again a different reality.

Don't get me wrong here, I am in no way saying people shouldn't train in groundfighting, far from it. What I am saying is to base your whole mentality on ground grappling is a very dangerous gameplan.

Edit: added some bold print!!

[Doc D]

Hello
I think the problem is that ,with respect to "ground fighting" ,the predominant perception is that we are referring to exactly what is demonstrated above.

Most people who mention ground fighting are not referring to the full spectrum of what one can do from the low position on the ground but , rather, simply wrestling and grappling on the ground for submission : Pinning down ,locking to create pain and/ or damage or effecting a choke. These tactics usually require committment of far too much time ,attention and energy toward ONE opposing combatant. Certainly ,wallowing around on the ground trying to hold on to another's body or limbs markedly limits one's  mobility.

Not all ground work is grappling based or without weapons. Those who train in the other aspects  of "ground fighting" may go low to the ground , but they are more like a yo-yo .... they are there for a moment and right back up. My teacher, Pendekar Suchi Richard Crabbe De-Bordes can move from fast upright actions to  hitting the ground /smashing your legs out from under you and then being back up so fast it is absolutely frightening........with a machete or golok in his hand, even more so. He demands a 4 second rule for maximum time dedication to the finish of any one opponent , because you never know who might be around  and deciding to join in. Even less when multiple opponents are situationally present from the onset. This  interpretation of "groundfighting" does not require jockeying for position and baiting someone to eventually give you a way to put them in a lock or choke, something that in the UFC contests can last many minutes . This view of "groundfighting" , instead, is ballistic and very traumatic.....and , I believe, the aspect of "groundfighting " that is most practical for non-sporting combat. 

    MMA ,as a sport ,wants to promote grappling style groundfighting because the entertainment value is in the protracted contest , where one ultimately forces the other to submit. I recall watching a boxing match with Mike Tyson where ,I think, less than a minute or so into the match, my very young daughter momentarily distracted me. By the time I looked up , it was done. Tyson had overwhelmed his opponent and finished him. Not much duration of crowd entertainment for that evening. Grappling contests certainly protract the duration of the match , insuring a longer , perhaps, more satsfying match or at least a bit more time for the money spent on a ticket.

I think when people talk "groundfighting" they ,more often than not, mean grappling or wrestling. That is a very limited interpretation of combat along the plane of the ground surface.

With Respect,

Doc D

[Gajah]

Thanks Doc D,

I think you have hit the nail quite eloquently on the head!

Referring back to my real life situation in my teens, I believe that one of the reasons I'm still around today was because I did a very 'harimau' type thing, though this was before I'd even heard of silat.

Briefly, I was unexpectantly suckerpunched from behind and KO'd by the punch. I regained conciousness on the ground recieving a very severe kicking by 2 guys.

I kicked from the ground. Kicked at one guys knee and got the other straight in the yarbles. Got up. Ran away.

Although this was an untrained and instinctual response it could have possibly saved me from permanent brain damage or worse.

As it was I lost conciousness a few hours later and was 'under' for four days. However, my head injuries were very severe, my skull was fractured & I had swelling of the brain, memory loss, personality changes.......

Anyway, before I turn the thread into a personal therapy session, my point is kicking from the ground & getting up fast is a good idea

[Michael Lee]

Gajah, so tell me, how does that incident make you feel about your mother? 

 

[DasaMan]

The 'all fights go to the ground' is actually a gross misrepresentation, or perhaps I should say extrapolation of reality.

Actually, the original statistics churned out by researches by LAPD say thusly (paraphrased, of course):

62% of all altercations that require use of force (that is, somewhere in the vicinity of 1% of all incidents that require the presence of police officers) by the police ends up with the mofo taken to the ground (to help cuffin 'im, of course).

Very specific and exclusive conclusion, no?

You should've seen the response of those MMA-fans who lived by the 'all fight yada yada' on the forum nextdoor when I presented the above: 'Yeah, but figuratively...'

I doubt those guys with their world class gym-toned bodies ever experienced fighting off premans in terminal in the middle of the night

[Russian Silat]

Greetings

I wrote an article for my Russian website on this topic. It's already been well-discussed here, but I offer it anyway.

Training Lethal Techniques

I am writing this article in response to a growing concern that people in the martial arts world have about training lethal techniques.

Over the years I have spoken with martial artists from a variety of backgrounds, and a theme is emerging in our discourse which goes something like, “it’s better to train an art you can use full-force in practice, because this is realistic”.

The assumption here is that some arts are “theoretical” and others are immediate. I will leave it to your imagination who created this dichotomy, and for what purpose.

The usual argument goes something like, “If I train in boxing or MMA, I can apply my techniques full force, but if I train how to stab someone, maim them, destroy their joints, how do I know it works? Aren’t I just pretending?”

On the face of it this seems like a valid concern, but as with most things in life, people rarely consider the wider picture.

The principle behind all forms of training is that you condition your body to respond during a critical situation. You imprint the form of an action, and if the imprint has been successful, this knowledge will emerge when needed.

Martial sports enthusiasts do not train themselves for crisis situations. What they do is done during a non-critical state of mind, and is meant to be expressed while in a non-critical state of mind. If something happens to put them into a crisis, they will not be able to respond as they should.

For example: MMA fighters train to fight only one opponent, usually a buddy, unarmed, on a soft surface, the whole time under the guidance of a referee who can stop the fight. Also, they are trained to stop fighting if they are told to, or if the opponent is suffering or cries out. This is the conditioning they receive.

What will happen to the martial skills of an MMA fighter if suddenly someone stabs them? What if they lose an eye, or break a bone? What if a second opponent attacks them, either during or right after fighting the first? What if some old lady starts yelling “stop fighting”? What if the opponent uses illegal techniques they aren’t used to dealing with, such as targeting the throat, eyes and groin? What if they get bitten?

The list of “what if’s” could go on. The point is that all of these things will cause the sport fighter to lose it. On the other hand, programmed techniques will always come to the forefront, because the critical situation is their special time to emerge.

Another thing which people don’t think about is that training for lethal, crisis fighting has been happening for thousands of years. People who have to fight to kill always train lethal techniques. How do they do it? They do drills. Be it fighting movements, bayonet attack, artillery procedure, or nuclear protocol, the universal and time-tested approach has been repetitive drilling.

I have seen the film “300” recently, and I wonder how those ancient Spartans trained. Did they say, “well, we can’t realistically practice running each other through with spears, so let’s just box and wrestle”.

Military specialists (such as SCARS training) who actually train special operations forces to kill, use repetition to imprint lethal techniques. Movements are at first done slowly and deliberately, so the learner understands on a kinesthetic level what they are doing. Then the techniques are done closer to speed. Because it is meant to simulate reality, the opponent is a crucial element in the training. The opponent must simulate the effects of the technique, pretending to be hit if a hit is intended, doubling over if hit in the groin, etc. When the techniques are fully internalized, then it is possible to improvise during free movement, and such movement will be relevant, not just flailing around.

Obviously, such training is theoretical ONLY IF IT HAS NOT BEEN DEVELOPED DURING ACTUAL COMBAT. But if someone has real combat experience, they can create such training methods realistically. Our art, for example, represents the combat experience of generations of masters. None of what we do was dreamed up by someone sitting in his kitchen, as I heard some Jurus in another art were.

Now anyone who has studied the circle of creation and the training strategies of Pukulan Cimande Pusaka will understand why we do what we do, and will understand the genius of the lethal masters who gave us this training, and why we refuse to alter it. 

Training in Pukulan Cimande Pusaka is ALWAYS done in an altered state of consciousness. This is the whole purpose of the drum music, the kembagan, the cultural elements, the meditations. All of it is meant to open the door to the subconscious, such that the techniques can be imprinted. When a traditional Silat fighter is practicing kembagan, it may look like a dance, but in their imagination they are destroying other human beings.

We practice fighting combinations, which can be performed repetitively. When we have accomplished internalization, we can then do slow-sparring effectively, and when I say “slow sparring” this could mean anything ranging from ultra-slow to near combat speed, depending on the needs of the practitioners. If it is sloppy or ineffective, it must be slower, if it is clean, it can be as fast as possible.

We also do real-time sparring, and it’s not for the faint-hearted. No pads, hard floors, and one minute to wreak havoc.

Unique to our art is the circle of creation. This is the ultimate way to train techniques, using the spiritual powers of the elements and animals to give an extra-physical dimension to what we do. In the west, the technique is imagined, with the birthing energy of the water element. Then in the south, the technique is practiced physically, harnessing the physicality of the earth. In the east, the fire element gives us the energy, aggression and decisiveness needed to employ the moves in an attack, and in the north, the move is actually done on an opponent.

This training builds up layers of knowledge inside of us, and actually creates a metaphysical condition of the technique having already been done successfully. It isn’t easy for the average sport enthusiast to understand or accept, which is why they will avoid it and instead cling to excuses and assumptions. 

We have a technology for training lethal skills which is light-years ahead of what the average enthusiast is aware of. Again, I invite you to come see for yourself if you feel you have the capacity for it.

I actually like martial sports very much. They are fun to watch on television, fun to participate in, they’re good exercise, and provide for some good expression of testosterone. My favorite is probably boxing, which I have a lot of respect for. And it can be used for fighting if need be. The average guy can get a lot out of martial sports- it’s a safe way to fight, express you aggression and need for competition, you can test your limits, build your strength, and maybe have something to make you feel more confident on the street.

But don’t confuse it with the lethal training of an art form. When you train to kill, using a multi-dimensional art form, it’s something different, and special. It’s for the elite.

My grandpa always told me to use the right tool for the right job. He gave me an old bolt-action .22 rifle when I was a kid, and it’s good for shooting cans, or maybe hunting rabbits. If I had to, I suppose I could use it to defend myself, but I’d rather have a sawed-off shotgun, or an Uzi. And just like it’s illegal to hunt rabbits with an Uzi, it’s also inappropriate to use Pukulan Cimande Pusaka in a sporting application.

In short, train for what you want. If you feel you need a sport hobby which maybe can cross over into real life combat, then train for that, and I wish you well. If you want to cultivate a rare and subtle art form which is based upon killing multiple armed opponents, which has fascinating magical and spiritual dimensions, you are welcome to Pukulan Cimande Pusaka.

[Gajah]

Over the years I have spoken with martial artists from a variety of backgrounds, and a theme is emerging in our discourse which goes something like, “it’s better to train an art you can use full-force in practice, because this is realistic”.

LOL, the other problem with MMA is it is creating it's own mythology & mystique, doing the same as it oft accuses other arts. Although there may be an element of realism with the physical aspect, Realism is not reality. There is a very narrow set of parameters within a sanitised environment.

And as we all know in reality you are very likely to get hit hard in the balls No use holding your crotch and complaining 'that's not allowed'

Obviously, such training is theoretical ONLY IF IT HAS NOT BEEN DEVELOPED DURING ACTUAL COMBAT. But if someone has real combat experience, they can create such training methods realistically

Believe it or not there is actually a standard response to this that gets bandied around too. Although I'm loathe to do so, on occasion I have referred to a couple of real life scenarios I have been involved in (hmmmm must be bad luck but there have been too many!).

So, lets just say something like this.....'A guy tried to push a smashed bottle into my face....I did 'this' and it worked'. OK, real scenario, response was effective, I'm not scarred for life or blinded.

The response was something like. "You cannot prove the response will work again as you only did this once. You would have to to train regularly with intent to harm with broken bottles to prove this is a useful technique"

 :-\Hmmmm

Also, if you haven't fought in the ring with er.....a referee, gloves, rules etc. etc. you will never be able to defend yourself in a real situation, probably just freez up and pee yourself......

What are these guys on........(apart from steroids )

[Russian Silat]

Hello Gajah, good point.

I've never been 'in the ring', but someone did attack me on the subway last Thursday. I think he must have been on drugs, because he kept attacking even after I hit him rather well a few times, but no matter.

The guy did try to grapple with me, and the result is that he got a thumb in his eye.

The amount of witnesses present was the only thing keeping me from killing him, which I could have done quite easily, thanks to my training in Pukulan Cimande Pusaka.

Before I started studying Silat, I had my own 'wake up call' about reality fighting. I picked a fight with a very big security guard at a bar (a bouncer), and his friend attacked me from behind. I got choked out from behind, while the other guy blasted me.

Not fair, not fair!!!!

But lesson learned.

-Fyodor

[DasaMan]

And as we all know in reality you are very likely to get hit hard in the balls No use holding your crotch and complaining 'that's not allowed'

Ah, I remember a story about Frank Shamrock assisting in a seminar on ground fighting for the street. He advocated some simple passing the guard technique.

Then someone asked, "Why don't I just hit him in the balls?"

Frank replied, "Well, the regulation requires wearing steel cups, so that will only hurt your hand."

"People actually wear cups on the street?"

Dear Frank paused. "Well, on the street, hitting him on the balls will work."

Well, it didn't exactly go like that, and it was a fourth hand story (I'll be hard pressed to present the source), but good chuckle, nonetheless

Also, if you haven't fought in the ring with er.....a referee, gloves, rules etc. etc. you will never be able to defend yourself in a real situation, probably just freez up and pee yourself......

Careful, you're about to offend a lot of people in the OTHER forum *nudge nudge wink wink*