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Author Topic: Cimande Macan Guling  (Read 12660 times)

Gorka

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #15 on: 24/07/2007 19:07 »
Kang Bram,

Sorry about my answer. As you've probably noticed english is not my mother language... that's why, sometimes, I may understand wrong some question... sorry !
But my english is better than my bahasa indonesia !!!  ;D
About your feeling on tricks or not tricks, I talked really frankly with the PPPSBBI's Debus leader Kang Abdurahman, a very strong, powerfull man in Debus. I saw amazing demonstrations from him !!
He told me that in public demonstrations, sometimes Debus groups include tricks for some part of the shows but there is always a part of the show that is true Debus. I think that you've to well know Debus and to have seen a lot to see when it's true or tricks. Debus Gurus have made some Debus on myself and I can tell you that when it's true the feeling is amazing. When you're "inside" you know that it's true....

The old man stepping on goloks that you can see on one of my videao shows REAL Debus. He is very famous in Serang about his Debus skills

I hope that this time, I answered well to your question.

Wassalam
Gorka

Ranggalana

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #16 on: 27/07/2007 22:10 »
Kang Bram,

Sorry about my answer. As you've probably noticed english is not my mother language... that's why, sometimes, I may understand wrong some question... sorry !
But my english is better than my bahasa indonesia !!!  ;D
About your feeling on tricks or not tricks, I talked really frankly with the PPPSBBI's Debus leader Kang Abdurahman, a very strong, powerfull man in Debus. I saw amazing demonstrations from him !!
He told me that in public demonstrations, sometimes Debus groups include tricks for some part of the shows but there is always a part of the show that is true Debus. I think that you've to well know Debus and to have seen a lot to see when it's true or tricks. Debus Gurus have made some Debus on myself and I can tell you that when it's true the feeling is amazing. When you're "inside" you know that it's true....

The old man stepping on goloks that you can see on one of my videao shows REAL Debus. He is very famous in Serang about his Debus skills

I hope that this time, I answered well to your question.

Wassalam
Gorka

Guru Gorka,

Your answer is interesting. So you believe that kebal is possible. As a rational man brought up in a Western culture, do you believe that is possible to explain kebal in scientific terms?

Would it be impolite to ask you to elaborate more on the feeling you experienced when a debus guru practised debus on you?

Terimakasih sebelumnya,
Bram
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Gorka

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #17 on: 27/07/2007 22:20 »
Salam Kang Bram,

As you said, I'm a "rational man brought in a western culture" but when you try to explain things like kebal, you can not use scientific terms or scientific mind.
The starting point of kebal, in my point of view, is FAITH.
If you don't believe at 100% in God.... then, it could not work.
And most of the time (and mainly in France) in the western scientific explanation, God can not be part of the explanation. So, for me, it can not be explain.

About my Debus experiences, it's hard to explain on a forum and it's more part of my  private experiences. Please, allow me to keep this for me. One day, if God wants, may be we'll have the chance to meet each other and then, I'll be very happy to share with you my Bantenese experiences...  [top]
I hope you understand.

Wassalam
Gorka

Ranggalana

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #18 on: 27/07/2007 22:35 »
Salam Kang Bram,

As you said, I'm a "rational man brought in a western culture" but when you try to explain things like kebal, you can not use scientific terms or scientific mind.
The starting point of kebal, in my point of view, is FAITH.
If you don't believe at 100% in God.... then, it could not work.
And most of the time (and mainly in France) in the western scientific explanation, God can not be part of the explanation. So, for me, it can not be explain.

About my Debus experiences, it's hard to explain on a forum and it's more part of my  private experiences. Please, allow me to keep this for me. One day, if God wants, may be we'll have the chance to meet each other and then, I'll be very happy to share with you my Bantenese experiences...  [top]
I hope you understand.

Wassalam
Gorka


Thank you very much... for the elaboration. I do hope one day we might meet and be able to talk silat more in depth. Now, to do away from personal and private experiences, do you think that tenaga dalam and kebal are distinct entities? Here they seem to sometimes mean the same thing but sometimes not. There is kebal that derives from one being 'filled' di-isi, or also kebal because someone trains -dilatih. There is also a traditional jawanese poem that suggests one stay away from ilmu kebal that derives from unseen forces... it goes more or less like this, I think in the tune of Gambuh, often used for advise.

Kekerane ngelmu karang
Angsal ira saking bangsaning gaib
Iku boreh paminipun
Tan rumasuk ing badan kulup
Kapentok ing pancabaya
Ubayane mbalenjani

The thing about invincibility
That comes from the unseen
Is that it is like powder
It doesn't saturate your body, young man
When danger attacks from five directions
It's promises will prove to be empty.

If I am not mistaken this is from Wulangreh, Mangkunegara IV. Please more knowledgeable forumites correct me if I am wrong.

So for me, kebal is problematic from several points of view, and the biggest problem is that it seems to be there, and true! Even Cak O'ong practised it when he was younger.

Please continue this discussion in general, stay away from private things.

Salam hangat and terimakasih banyak,
Bram

batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Gorka

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #19 on: 27/07/2007 22:51 »
Salam kang Bram,

Thanks for the answers.
About Kebal and Tenaga Dalam, in my understanding kebal from Debus comes from faith, fasting and praying and Tenaga Dalam often there is breating exercices thrue which you build up your invulnerability.

I have a very good friend who is Dayak and he is very powerfull in dayak's ilmu. Once in Java, he explain me that invulnerability power is strongly connected to the emotions. If you've got an invulnerability power and your brother want to stab you to ty this power, it won't work and you may be harmed. But if someone in the street really wants to stab you to kill you then the power will come out and protect yourself.

Thanks for the javanese poem

Happy to read you soon
wassalam
Gorka

Ranggalana

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #20 on: 27/07/2007 23:02 »
Salam kang Bram,

.....Once in Java, he explain me that invulnerability power is strongly connected to the emotions. If you've got an invulnerability power and your brother want to stab you to ty this power, it won't work and you may be harmed. But if someone in the street really wants to stab you to kill you then the power will come out and protect yourself.

Thanks for the javanese poem

Happy to read you soon
wassalam
Gorka

Thanks for the answers once more, Guru Gorka...

Yes, in my experience ilmu kebal sometimes works and sometimes doesn't and mostly it seems to work in situations where the kebal person doesn't actually make himself kebal, for instance, in a surprise attack. When I was in highschool I took a friend to be filled with kebal. The guru made him make a small selamatan, and then took out a sword and tested him. Bang-bang-bang! No wound. I was offered to be filled too but I declined because I was afraid that I did not have enough faith. The guru warned that if you did not believe the sword would cut you!

The next few days my friend would be showing off his new kebal, and other friends tested him with sharp cutters, slash-slash-slash but no wound. Untill one afternoon, we tried again and there was blood everywhere. What happened? I don't know! Since then I have been afraid to even attempt to learn kebal. But I beleive from seeing that some people can be kebal at all occasions. Especially if they fast and pray themselves, rather than use a empowered belt or jimat.

Salam hangat,
Bram.

batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

JD Tekpi

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #21 on: 04/08/2007 10:02 »
Rahayu Bram,

I've had some interesting experiences with kebal-type training.  I can appreciate the verse about 'soliciting unseen forces', as it applies to those who seek spooky magical power in the form of trinkets/amulets (especially from dodgy websites) or by jin, etc.

In my opinion, the greatest example of the necessary mindset for this type of thing is the story of Anoman in the Ramayana.  Did Anoman use amulets or sacrifice to jin?  Was he even concerned with kebal at all?

No.

It was his own spiritual discipline, combined with righteous conduct and a sincere faith in God that was the source of his power (I guess being so blessed by the Devas helped too - but who is to say that we're all not blessed in some ways).  In that sense he is the archetypical martial artist.

Just my .02!

salaam,

JD

moneef

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #22 on: 04/08/2007 15:42 »
Salaams Guru Gorka,

You have posted great videos, good to have you on the forum.

regards, Mo  :)

dsbasuki

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #23 on: 07/08/2007 18:08 »
As you said, I'm a "rational man brought in a western culture" but when you try to explain things like kebal, you can not use scientific terms or scientific mind.
The starting point of kebal, in my point of view, is FAITH.
If you don't believe at 100% in God.... then, it could not work.
And most of the time (and mainly in France) in the western scientific explanation, God can not be part of the explanation. So, for me, it can not be explain.

Salam Pendekar Gorka,
This is one of many characters of true and real pendekar! Believe and have faith in God! This is an outcome of "olah karsa" aspect of silat. I humbly have deep respect of you. May God Almighty give you his abundant blessing to you and your art. Amin.

Salam...

Gorka

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #24 on: 07/08/2007 20:00 »
Salam dsbasuki,
Thanks a lot for your nice comments.
God bless you and your loved ones  :)

wassalam
Gorka

silkroad

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #25 on: 08/08/2007 11:05 »
Hello - Salaam to Everybody,

Silkroad here!  Friend of Mas Bram, Mas Krisno, Mas Gajah (remember me Gajah?) and student of Cimande Macan Guling and Silat Kuntau Tekpi with 'JD Tekpi'.  So i guess that would make Mas Gorka my PARAMGURU?

Mas Gorka thanks for sharing those vids with us.  I understand you are a graphic artist and it really shows.  I have to say that i am as much interested in the cultural aspects of silat as the fighting aspects.  My first question isssss: what are some of the differences between the Banten Cimande and the Tari Kolot Cimande?

To Silat!

Silkroad (Julio)

Gorka

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #26 on: 08/08/2007 14:55 »
Salam Silkroad,

Talking about Cimande Tari Kalot is always dangerous because you never know if someone is going to jump on you or not because he doesn't agree...
But, well, let's do it anyway, we'll see...
in my researchs, I've been very close of Cimande Tari Kalot with Kang Cecep A. Rahman's teachings and his teacher Pak Wawan in Bogor and his friends, leaders of Cimande Tari Kalot "office". So by this teachings, Cimande Tari Kalot has 33 seated jurus + 12 pepedangan + 1 ibing

In Cimande Macan Guling, we have
- 17 standing jurus (created in the 60's for beginners and children)
- 21 kelid (which are the backbone of our style. They're done 2 by 2, working on speed and hardening bones)
- 3 langkahs
- 1 pancer
- 3 jurus golok
- 1 bantingan
- 4 ibing
- jurus bawa (done after a ritual and under meditation)

Interesting fact is that, in my school, we also study Pusaka Medal.
Pusaka Medal is Cimande Macan Guling ancestor which still alive in  a small village around Serang. In Pusaka Medal, we have :
- 17 kelids
- 3 langkah
- 4 rangkuman (kelid summary)
- 4 pepedangan
- 1 kolewang
- 5 ibing
- jurus bawa (done after a ritual and under meditation)

The differences between Pusaka Medal and Cimande Macan Guling are "variasi" from modern time in Serang.

In Cimande Macan Guling and Pusaka Medal, you can see everywhere "Keluarga Besar Cimande" (big family of Cimande).

In Cimande Macan Guling and in pusaka Medal you can easily see the links mostly in the kelids which reminds the Tari Kalot seated jurus (even if there are some differences in the way to do them) and there is similarities in the ibing.

I hope it helps a little bit... for a better understanding of our style(s)

wassalam
Gorka

dsbasuki

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #27 on: 08/08/2007 15:42 »
...The next few days my friend would be showing off his new kebal, and other friends tested him with sharp cutters, slash-slash-slash but no wound. Untill one afternoon, we tried again and there was blood everywhere. What happened? I don't know! Since then I have been afraid to even attempt to learn kebal. But I beleive from seeing that some people can be kebal at all occasions. Especially if they fast and pray themselves, rather than use a empowered belt or jimat.

Salam Mas Bram...
"Kesombongan" (arrogance) could kill! What your friend experienced was a good example of what our teachers had told us. The "ilmu kebal" is not something that we could show off, unless specifically meant for that, i.e. Debus.

In my opinion, sometimes having an "ilmu kebal" is not always beneficial. For example, if one is sick or ill, hospitalized and need IV (intravenous, "infus"), then by having an "ilmu kebal" would make him suffer because the syringe needle would not be able to penetrate his skin. If he was concious, then he would be able to "release" his "ilmu", but what happened if he was unconcious? I have seen with my own eyes, an unconcious man in a hospital whom his skin could not be penetrated by syringe needle!

Just sharing...

Salam....

manggoloyudho

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #28 on: 08/08/2007 17:24 »
 ??? I have a friend in Banten. A General practice. She got many patient with funny and strange injury. The people said the patient fall from palm tree, but the injury is not like falling from anywhere. And the Conclussion is Injury during practice "ilmu kebal". He...he....he....

JD Tekpi

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Re: Cimande Macan Guling
« Reply #29 on: 08/08/2007 23:27 »
I think many people have the wrong idea about kebal.  After all, you don't need to be bullet-proof, you just need to be one second faster than your opponent!  Some people want to train to develop the 'power' to survive unhurt in a plane crash (for example)  I would rather develop the 'power' to avoid being in the crash in the first place.  [top]

On another note, can you imagine a study in the medical journals about Treatment of Common Injuries Sustain in Kebal Related Training"?  ::)

 

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