Forum Sahabat Silat

English Version => Pencak Silat Schools and Teachers => Topic started by: Gorka on 20/07/2007 17:34

Title: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Gorka on 20/07/2007 17:34
Assalamua'laikum to everyone,

I would like to share with you all my website about Cimande Macan Guling and Debus from Banten. I'm sorry, until now my website is mainly in french but you may like to see some photos and videos from our art and from our trips to the mother country of our style.
http://www.cimandefrance.com/

I wish all the best for this Forum. I wish a greta future for it.
Thanks for having putted an english version  ;D
as my bahasa indonesia is not good enough...  :-\

Wassalam
Gorka
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Rebo Paing on 20/07/2007 17:42
Welcome Mas Gorka!

I am a huge fan of your videos. It is great to see you here, I hope that you will visit more often (and please keep making those videos  [top]).

Salam hangat,
Krisno
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Gorka on 20/07/2007 18:59
Assalamua'laikum Krisno,

Thanks a lot for your kind words.
I've got a lot more videos from Banten.
I just miss some time to put them on internet.
But I'll do my best to fulfill your request  [top]

Wassalam
Gorka
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: kisawung on 20/07/2007 21:35
Hello Pendekar / Guru Gorka  [top]

i`m very happy meet u here at sahabatsilat.com

hope u enjoy in here  [thank]

by the way... where are Gabriel my friend  ;D

Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Mumtaz on 21/07/2007 01:38
Salaam Guru Gorka,

Man, thank you for posting those cool videos on youtube.  You are very lucky to have the opportunity to train with those guys.  Keep us informed of your works.

Mumtaz
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Ranggalana on 21/07/2007 08:01
Assalamua'laikum to everyone,

I would like to share with you all my website about Cimande Macan Guling and Debus from Banten. I'm sorry, until now my website is mainly in french but you may like to see some photos and videos from our art and from our trips to the mother country of our style.
http://www.cimandefrance.com/
.............................

Wassalam
Gorka

Wa'alaekum salaam, Guru Gorka,

Selamat Datang! Welcome to this forum and please post actively. I am also a fan of your vids. More! More! More! [top]

Wassalam,
Bram.
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: AbdUllah on 22/07/2007 20:52
MashaAllah Pak Gorka
i really enjoy watching some of your videos. And your style of cimande seems very beautiful and authentic.
I was just wondering if i could make a request? Would it be possible to see your style in action? I mean not just forms or public dance displays. These are very beautiful  and show the purity of the art but (if it is not too much difficulty for you) would it also be possible to see the practical reality of your lovely art? :)
You might even already have one up, and just through my own blindness i have missed it, so if that is the case please forgive me.

Peace
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Gorka on 23/07/2007 19:15
Assalamua'laikum AbdUllah and everyone,

Thanks for all your nice comments on our website and our videos.
About the "practical reality of our lovely art", I've tasted it in Banten ;D
But I don't have much videos about it. I've got some but the qualitry is really poor...
On my next trip, I may be able to take some or if I've got some time I can make a short movie about the practical side of Cimande Macan Guling with one of my students. I'll see what I can do to answer your request...

Thanks for all  [top]

Wassalam
Gorka
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Aikijutsu on 23/07/2007 23:07
Asalaam Aleikum,

Abdullah, your well-intended request to Mas Gorka is a bit shaky.  Think about what you are asking.  Real silat masters are very low key and don't talk at all about how "deadly" is their cimande, so you would be hard pressed to get them to demo the harder aspects of the art.

Plus, video does not tell the whole story.  I once had the good opportunity to train with a genuine cimande man that showed me some basic juru applications.  I threw a punch, he hit my arm and the arm was useless for the rest of the day.  It didn't look like anything special.  No bells and whistles to play to the camera.  The proof is in the pudding.

Mas Gorka, have you been to Tari Kolot?

Salaam,
Ken
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Gorka on 24/07/2007 04:20
Assalamua'laikum Aikijutsu,

Thanks for your answer mas Aikijutsu.
To answer your question : yes I've been to Tari Kolot once.
I've met there the leaders of Cimande. I'm welcome anytime I want to train there with them. I had the chance to have been introduce there by Pak Wawan who is a famous Dalang/Dance/Silat teacher living in Bogor. He knows them well and he has a strong reputation.
My main spring of Knowledge in Cimande Macan Guling is the city of Serang in Banten province and a small village around called Rancalame.

Wassalam
Gorka
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: AbdUllah on 24/07/2007 04:54
selamat pesilatan
Aiki i would usually agree with you on you saying that there is a level of secrecy that is maintained regarding the beladiri in each aliran, however i just made the assumption that Brother Gorka's perguruan had opened its doors (much like Gayong have in malaysia and cimande have in America), given that he had previously posted many videos of his style. I was not looking to see every trick in the book :p, i was just curious to see the art in motion.

However brother Gorka, if you were only interested in showing people the seni of your art to give them a flavour and you had no intention of showing the beladiri, and thus there was no videos of it on purpose, then i retract my request and respect your wish for privacy (as i would be the same way if i were in your position).

Peace brothers :)
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Gorka on 24/07/2007 14:18
Assalamua'laikum Abdullah,

Don't worry, my purpose is to promote Cimande Macan Guling. I can make the difference between the "private" part and the "public" part of our art. As I told you the video about beladiri that I have from Banten are really poor quality  :-\
But I'll see what I can do

wassalam
Gorka
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Ranggalana on 24/07/2007 16:06
Assalamualaekum, Gorka,

I have seen a vid from you depicting a kebal demonstration where an old man stands on the sharp sides of a pair of goloks and sort of bounces up and down on them.

Could you please elaborate on your understanding of ilmu kebal?

Thanks in advance,

Wasalam
Bram

Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Gorka on 24/07/2007 16:28
Assalamua'laikum Bram,

The video you're talking about was taken in Serang during the Cimande Macan Guling Keceran 2004 (if my memory is not wrong).
This is a Debus representation. My understanding of ilmu kebal is small.
Banten is very famous about his Debus. Debus includes a lot of different demonstrations. Resisting to fire, to golok, to broken glass, Paku Banten, to pisau, bats coming out from the mouth, boiling krupuks on top of the head...
All this demonstrations in Banten are part of Debus. Debus is coming from Islam.
At its origin Debus was done to promote Islam in Banten. During Sultan Ageng Tirtayasa reign (around 1651/1652), Debus was done to develop a fighting spirit for the people fighting against the Dutch colonies. Sultan Ageng Tirtayasa himself was teaching Debus techniques to his followers by teaching them the Al Quran.
Other stories tell that Sultan Maulana Hasanuddin was also using Debus to help Islam during its spreading around Banten (which was Hindo-bouddhist during this period). Other texts link Debus with the Rifaiah Tarikat from Aceh or Naqshabandiyya or Qâdiriyya Tarikat.

I hope that this small contribution can help some of you...
Bram, I guess that there is no new teaching for you in this contribution and you probably already know all this...  :)

Wassalam
Gorka
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Ranggalana on 24/07/2007 16:37
Assalamua'laikum Bram,

The video you're talking about was taken in Serang during the Cimande Macan Guling Keceran 2004 (if my memory is not wrong).
This is a Debus representation. My understanding of ilmu kebal is small.
Banten is very famous about his Debus. Debus includes a lot of different demonstrations. Resisting to fire, to golok, to broken glass, Paku Banten, to pisau, bats coming out from the mouth, boiling krupuks on top of the head...
All this demonstrations in Banten are part of Debus. Debus is coming from Islam.
At its origin Debus was done to promote Islam in Banten. During Sultan Ageng Tirtayasa reign (around 1651/1652), Debus was done to develop a fighting spirit for the people fighting against the Dutch colonies. Sultan Ageng Tirtayasa himself was teaching Debus techniques to his followers by teaching them the Al Quran.
Other stories tell that Sultan Maulana Hasanuddin was also using Debus to help Islam during its spreading around Banten (which was Hindo-bouddhist during this period). Other texts link Debus with the Rifaiah Tarikat from Aceh or Naqshabandiyya or Qâdiriyya Tarikat.

I hope that this small contribution can help some of you...
Bram, I guess that there is no new teaching for you in this contribution and you probably already know all this...  :)

Wassalam
Gorka

Wa'alaekum salaam Gorka,

Thank you for the swift response. I think I phrased my question wrong, as I did not intend to ask about the history and practise of debus. Rather I wanted to hear from you, your opinion. Like when I see debus it always makes me amazed and sometimes I think that there must be a trick there, but there never seems to be any trick. I was wondering if you felt the same. Have you seen kebal in action outside of a demonstration?

BTW, I once translated a museum catalog for an exhibition of Islamic art in Adelaide and there were debus equipment from the old Cirebon kesultanan. It is true that debus was introduced to Indonesia by the Wali to attract people to Islam. Nowadays many Wahabi inclined Muslims feel that debus is contrary to Islam. Shows how things change.

Wa salam,
Bram
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Gorka on 24/07/2007 19:07
Kang Bram,

Sorry about my answer. As you've probably noticed english is not my mother language... that's why, sometimes, I may understand wrong some question... sorry !
But my english is better than my bahasa indonesia !!!  ;D
About your feeling on tricks or not tricks, I talked really frankly with the PPPSBBI's Debus leader Kang Abdurahman, a very strong, powerfull man in Debus. I saw amazing demonstrations from him !!
He told me that in public demonstrations, sometimes Debus groups include tricks for some part of the shows but there is always a part of the show that is true Debus. I think that you've to well know Debus and to have seen a lot to see when it's true or tricks. Debus Gurus have made some Debus on myself and I can tell you that when it's true the feeling is amazing. When you're "inside" you know that it's true....

The old man stepping on goloks that you can see on one of my videao shows REAL Debus. He is very famous in Serang about his Debus skills

I hope that this time, I answered well to your question.

Wassalam
Gorka
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Ranggalana on 27/07/2007 22:10
Kang Bram,

Sorry about my answer. As you've probably noticed english is not my mother language... that's why, sometimes, I may understand wrong some question... sorry !
But my english is better than my bahasa indonesia !!!  ;D
About your feeling on tricks or not tricks, I talked really frankly with the PPPSBBI's Debus leader Kang Abdurahman, a very strong, powerfull man in Debus. I saw amazing demonstrations from him !!
He told me that in public demonstrations, sometimes Debus groups include tricks for some part of the shows but there is always a part of the show that is true Debus. I think that you've to well know Debus and to have seen a lot to see when it's true or tricks. Debus Gurus have made some Debus on myself and I can tell you that when it's true the feeling is amazing. When you're "inside" you know that it's true....

The old man stepping on goloks that you can see on one of my videao shows REAL Debus. He is very famous in Serang about his Debus skills

I hope that this time, I answered well to your question.

Wassalam
Gorka

Guru Gorka,

Your answer is interesting. So you believe that kebal is possible. As a rational man brought up in a Western culture, do you believe that is possible to explain kebal in scientific terms?

Would it be impolite to ask you to elaborate more on the feeling you experienced when a debus guru practised debus on you?

Terimakasih sebelumnya,
Bram
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Gorka on 27/07/2007 22:20
Salam Kang Bram,

As you said, I'm a "rational man brought in a western culture" but when you try to explain things like kebal, you can not use scientific terms or scientific mind.
The starting point of kebal, in my point of view, is FAITH.
If you don't believe at 100% in God.... then, it could not work.
And most of the time (and mainly in France) in the western scientific explanation, God can not be part of the explanation. So, for me, it can not be explain.

About my Debus experiences, it's hard to explain on a forum and it's more part of my  private experiences. Please, allow me to keep this for me. One day, if God wants, may be we'll have the chance to meet each other and then, I'll be very happy to share with you my Bantenese experiences...  [top]
I hope you understand.

Wassalam
Gorka
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Ranggalana on 27/07/2007 22:35
Salam Kang Bram,

As you said, I'm a "rational man brought in a western culture" but when you try to explain things like kebal, you can not use scientific terms or scientific mind.
The starting point of kebal, in my point of view, is FAITH.
If you don't believe at 100% in God.... then, it could not work.
And most of the time (and mainly in France) in the western scientific explanation, God can not be part of the explanation. So, for me, it can not be explain.

About my Debus experiences, it's hard to explain on a forum and it's more part of my  private experiences. Please, allow me to keep this for me. One day, if God wants, may be we'll have the chance to meet each other and then, I'll be very happy to share with you my Bantenese experiences...  [top]
I hope you understand.

Wassalam
Gorka


Thank you very much... for the elaboration. I do hope one day we might meet and be able to talk silat more in depth. Now, to do away from personal and private experiences, do you think that tenaga dalam and kebal are distinct entities? Here they seem to sometimes mean the same thing but sometimes not. There is kebal that derives from one being 'filled' di-isi, or also kebal because someone trains -dilatih. There is also a traditional jawanese poem that suggests one stay away from ilmu kebal that derives from unseen forces... it goes more or less like this, I think in the tune of Gambuh, often used for advise.

Kekerane ngelmu karang
Angsal ira saking bangsaning gaib
Iku boreh paminipun
Tan rumasuk ing badan kulup
Kapentok ing pancabaya
Ubayane mbalenjani

The thing about invincibility
That comes from the unseen
Is that it is like powder
It doesn't saturate your body, young man
When danger attacks from five directions
It's promises will prove to be empty.

If I am not mistaken this is from Wulangreh, Mangkunegara IV. Please more knowledgeable forumites correct me if I am wrong.

So for me, kebal is problematic from several points of view, and the biggest problem is that it seems to be there, and true! Even Cak O'ong practised it when he was younger.

Please continue this discussion in general, stay away from private things.

Salam hangat and terimakasih banyak,
Bram

Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Gorka on 27/07/2007 22:51
Salam kang Bram,

Thanks for the answers.
About Kebal and Tenaga Dalam, in my understanding kebal from Debus comes from faith, fasting and praying and Tenaga Dalam often there is breating exercices thrue which you build up your invulnerability.

I have a very good friend who is Dayak and he is very powerfull in dayak's ilmu. Once in Java, he explain me that invulnerability power is strongly connected to the emotions. If you've got an invulnerability power and your brother want to stab you to ty this power, it won't work and you may be harmed. But if someone in the street really wants to stab you to kill you then the power will come out and protect yourself.

Thanks for the javanese poem

Happy to read you soon
wassalam
Gorka
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Ranggalana on 27/07/2007 23:02
Salam kang Bram,

.....Once in Java, he explain me that invulnerability power is strongly connected to the emotions. If you've got an invulnerability power and your brother want to stab you to ty this power, it won't work and you may be harmed. But if someone in the street really wants to stab you to kill you then the power will come out and protect yourself.

Thanks for the javanese poem

Happy to read you soon
wassalam
Gorka

Thanks for the answers once more, Guru Gorka...

Yes, in my experience ilmu kebal sometimes works and sometimes doesn't and mostly it seems to work in situations where the kebal person doesn't actually make himself kebal, for instance, in a surprise attack. When I was in highschool I took a friend to be filled with kebal. The guru made him make a small selamatan, and then took out a sword and tested him. Bang-bang-bang! No wound. I was offered to be filled too but I declined because I was afraid that I did not have enough faith. The guru warned that if you did not believe the sword would cut you!

The next few days my friend would be showing off his new kebal, and other friends tested him with sharp cutters, slash-slash-slash but no wound. Untill one afternoon, we tried again and there was blood everywhere. What happened? I don't know! Since then I have been afraid to even attempt to learn kebal. But I beleive from seeing that some people can be kebal at all occasions. Especially if they fast and pray themselves, rather than use a empowered belt or jimat.

Salam hangat,
Bram.

Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: JD Tekpi on 04/08/2007 10:02
Rahayu Bram,

I've had some interesting experiences with kebal-type training.  I can appreciate the verse about 'soliciting unseen forces', as it applies to those who seek spooky magical power in the form of trinkets/amulets (especially from dodgy websites) or by jin, etc.

In my opinion, the greatest example of the necessary mindset for this type of thing is the story of Anoman in the Ramayana.  Did Anoman use amulets or sacrifice to jin?  Was he even concerned with kebal at all?

No.

It was his own spiritual discipline, combined with righteous conduct and a sincere faith in God that was the source of his power (I guess being so blessed by the Devas helped too - but who is to say that we're all not blessed in some ways).  In that sense he is the archetypical martial artist.

Just my .02!

salaam,

JD
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: moneef on 04/08/2007 15:42
Salaams Guru Gorka,

You have posted great videos, good to have you on the forum.

regards, Mo  :)
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: dsbasuki on 07/08/2007 18:08
As you said, I'm a "rational man brought in a western culture" but when you try to explain things like kebal, you can not use scientific terms or scientific mind.
The starting point of kebal, in my point of view, is FAITH.
If you don't believe at 100% in God.... then, it could not work.
And most of the time (and mainly in France) in the western scientific explanation, God can not be part of the explanation. So, for me, it can not be explain.

Salam Pendekar Gorka,
This is one of many characters of true and real pendekar! Believe and have faith in God! This is an outcome of "olah karsa" aspect of silat. I humbly have deep respect of you. May God Almighty give you his abundant blessing to you and your art. Amin.

Salam...
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Gorka on 07/08/2007 20:00
Salam dsbasuki,
Thanks a lot for your nice comments.
God bless you and your loved ones  :)

wassalam
Gorka
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: silkroad on 08/08/2007 11:05
Hello - Salaam to Everybody,

Silkroad here!  Friend of Mas Bram, Mas Krisno, Mas Gajah (remember me Gajah?) and student of Cimande Macan Guling and Silat Kuntau Tekpi with 'JD Tekpi'.  So i guess that would make Mas Gorka my PARAMGURU?

Mas Gorka thanks for sharing those vids with us.  I understand you are a graphic artist and it really shows.  I have to say that i am as much interested in the cultural aspects of silat as the fighting aspects.  My first question isssss: what are some of the differences between the Banten Cimande and the Tari Kolot Cimande?

To Silat!

Silkroad (Julio)
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Gorka on 08/08/2007 14:55
Salam Silkroad,

Talking about Cimande Tari Kalot is always dangerous because you never know if someone is going to jump on you or not because he doesn't agree...
But, well, let's do it anyway, we'll see...
in my researchs, I've been very close of Cimande Tari Kalot with Kang Cecep A. Rahman's teachings and his teacher Pak Wawan in Bogor and his friends, leaders of Cimande Tari Kalot "office". So by this teachings, Cimande Tari Kalot has 33 seated jurus + 12 pepedangan + 1 ibing

In Cimande Macan Guling, we have
- 17 standing jurus (created in the 60's for beginners and children)
- 21 kelid (which are the backbone of our style. They're done 2 by 2, working on speed and hardening bones)
- 3 langkahs
- 1 pancer
- 3 jurus golok
- 1 bantingan
- 4 ibing
- jurus bawa (done after a ritual and under meditation)

Interesting fact is that, in my school, we also study Pusaka Medal.
Pusaka Medal is Cimande Macan Guling ancestor which still alive in  a small village around Serang. In Pusaka Medal, we have :
- 17 kelids
- 3 langkah
- 4 rangkuman (kelid summary)
- 4 pepedangan
- 1 kolewang
- 5 ibing
- jurus bawa (done after a ritual and under meditation)

The differences between Pusaka Medal and Cimande Macan Guling are "variasi" from modern time in Serang.

In Cimande Macan Guling and Pusaka Medal, you can see everywhere "Keluarga Besar Cimande" (big family of Cimande).

In Cimande Macan Guling and in pusaka Medal you can easily see the links mostly in the kelids which reminds the Tari Kalot seated jurus (even if there are some differences in the way to do them) and there is similarities in the ibing.

I hope it helps a little bit... for a better understanding of our style(s)

wassalam
Gorka
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: dsbasuki on 08/08/2007 15:42
...The next few days my friend would be showing off his new kebal, and other friends tested him with sharp cutters, slash-slash-slash but no wound. Untill one afternoon, we tried again and there was blood everywhere. What happened? I don't know! Since then I have been afraid to even attempt to learn kebal. But I beleive from seeing that some people can be kebal at all occasions. Especially if they fast and pray themselves, rather than use a empowered belt or jimat.

Salam Mas Bram...
"Kesombongan" (arrogance) could kill! What your friend experienced was a good example of what our teachers had told us. The "ilmu kebal" is not something that we could show off, unless specifically meant for that, i.e. Debus.

In my opinion, sometimes having an "ilmu kebal" is not always beneficial. For example, if one is sick or ill, hospitalized and need IV (intravenous, "infus"), then by having an "ilmu kebal" would make him suffer because the syringe needle would not be able to penetrate his skin. If he was concious, then he would be able to "release" his "ilmu", but what happened if he was unconcious? I have seen with my own eyes, an unconcious man in a hospital whom his skin could not be penetrated by syringe needle!

Just sharing...

Salam....
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: manggoloyudho on 08/08/2007 17:24
 ??? I have a friend in Banten. A General practice. She got many patient with funny and strange injury. The people said the patient fall from palm tree, but the injury is not like falling from anywhere. And the Conclussion is Injury during practice "ilmu kebal". He...he....he....
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: JD Tekpi on 08/08/2007 23:27
I think many people have the wrong idea about kebal.  After all, you don't need to be bullet-proof, you just need to be one second faster than your opponent!  Some people want to train to develop the 'power' to survive unhurt in a plane crash (for example)  I would rather develop the 'power' to avoid being in the crash in the first place.  [top]

On another note, can you imagine a study in the medical journals about Treatment of Common Injuries Sustain in Kebal Related Training"?  ::)
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Gajah on 09/08/2007 01:28
Indeed mas JD :)

Salaam mas Silkroad, great to 'see' you here [top]
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Ranggalana on 16/08/2007 19:10
Hello - Salaam to Everybody,

Silkroad here!  Friend of Mas Bram, Mas Krisno, Mas Gajah (remember me Gajah?) and student of Cimande Macan Guling and Silat Kuntau Tekpi with 'JD Tekpi'.  ....

To Silat!

Silkroad (Julio)

Salam Julio,

Nice to have you here and I hope to see more posts from you in the future. Good luck with your training.

To Silat too!
Bram
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Rebo Paing on 16/08/2007 19:43
Hola Silkroad,

Welcome my friend and sorry that I missed you post! Ai, it's been quite some time I think.

Salam,
Krisno
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Kang Yana on 20/08/2007 11:37
Ass. Wr. Wb.
Mas JD,  how are you ? I think my interpretations of Kebal come from an aura Banten, spiritualists, society of penca Silat, tradition of Sudanese / ageman (Agama).
Debus is one of products maenpo in Banten West Java
Kebal is defense or could be attract too;
A means of protecting something from attack or
The action of defending from or resisting attack.
Kebal will be existing if you believe or NOT
A person or pesilat should be practice to build the ceremony retains an aura of mystery; quality that seems to surround and be generated by a person /pesilat / teacher / pendekar.

Wassalam
Kang Yana
Title: Re: Cimande Macan Guling
Post by: Ranggalana on 26/08/2007 15:11
??? I have a friend in Banten. A General practice. She got many patient with funny and strange injury. The people said the patient fall from palm tree, but the injury is not like falling from anywhere. And the Conclussion is Injury during practice "ilmu kebal". He...he....he....

salam mas manggoloyudho,

I amn interested in your forum-nick. A great grandfather of mine had that name in around 1825. Where are you from? Just thought that you might be a distan cousin.

Salam hangat,
Bram