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Author Topic: Keris in Silat  (Read 24386 times)

Ranggalana

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Keris in Silat
« on: 15/11/2007 17:45 »
Dear Sahabats,

Indonesian silat apparently doesn't teach keris fighting. Contemporary Jawanese think that the keris should not be used for fighting, and silat schools do not teach it. In Jawa literature keris is used as a weapon, to murder, to execute, and also it is used in battle, but in real life at least since the 20th century the keris has never been used physically. In the times that it was used as a weapon the keris was considered to be the last weapon.

Malaysian silat is different, the keris there is not revered in the same way as in Jawa and there are silat schools that teach keris fighting. The Malay keris is different to the Jawa keris, it has a short "pesi" and the handle is also at a different angle.

I am very interested in the new developments in keris fighting, where we have new "Pendekars" teaching keris fighting and claiming knowledge of ancient times. What are the sahabats of this forums opinions about keris in silat, particularly keris Jawa?

Salam hangat semuanya,
Bram
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Gajah

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #1 on: 16/11/2007 01:20 »
An interesting and potentially controversial subject.

I would be interested to know at what point the Kris stopped being used as a weapon in Indonesia but continued so in Malaysia. Do you have any pointers Bram?

It would seem to me, that something that obviously initially represented a weapon, has at some point in history come to be imbued with differing meaning depending on geography. However, wasn't the geography a political one imposed by colonists? ie. Dutch & British?

I'm in a curious position with regard to this. I study a Javanese silat rooted in pre colonial times(allegedly) that found it's way to Malaysia as a family system. The later stages of training do indeed contain some Kris fighting.

I wonder if this is either, a remnant from the Javanese origins or a Malaysian 'add on' that was more culturally acceptable.

So, what do the historical records suggest? What was the turning point?

Ranggalana

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #2 on: 16/11/2007 11:34 »

I would be interested to know at what point the Kris stopped being used as a weapon in Indonesia but continued so in Malaysia. Do you have any pointers Bram?
...
So, what do the historical records suggest? What was the turning point?


Hi Martin,

The problem about keris discussions is that there are no real experts who know everything there is to know, and also, when there are very knowledgable people often they disagree with eachother on many things.

Most researchers agree that keris reached its peak in Majapahit and spread out from there. By the Majapahit time Jawa keris had evolved to include most current dhapurs (profiles) and ricikans (features). Many features do not have a form that follows a physical function, as by Majapahit times the keris was no more ONLY a physical weapon. In fact, because a keris is made by uniting a ganja and a wilah, from the beginning it is a symbol and not only a knife.

In literature describing Majapahit wars you have keris fights. In Bali's puputan in 1908 (?) you have jurnalists reporting the employment of keris. In early Islamic Mataram and Kartasura literature you have keris used in fighting, and in Sultan Agung's reign, all his officers' kerises were decorated with 'kinatah' in the form of an elephant and a lion (kinatah gajah-singo) to celebrate his sacking of the petty king of Pati. After that Sultan Agung failed twice to kick the Dutch out of Batavia, and it is said that later he created the wayang character 'buta cakil'. Buta Cakil is has a keris and sometimes two but always gets killed by his own blade...

I have a feeling that this complete defeat in Batavia and the Cakil character had an impact on the status of keris in Jawa. On top of that, add the superstitious Dutch that were here at the time, all serve to make the keris ever more mystical. Saying that, keris Jawa, keris Bali, keris Lombok, keris Bugis, keris Sumatra, and keris Melayu, all have different ways of handling - beda cara mainnya. A keris Jawa is used not only for stabing but also for -ngiris - slicing. It is held in a unique grip that you are taught in classical dance. Other regions kerises are shaped different to the keris Jawa, and are employed differently too.

Please, more knowledgable sahabat, illustrate more about keris in silat.

Salam hangat,
Bram.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Michael Lee

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #3 on: 21/11/2007 04:29 »
Hello Bram and Martin! 

In my research for the upcoming post I will be making about the Keris, I was directed to this website and thought you'd be interested. 

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/keris01.html

Any feedback would be appreciated!

Michael

Ranggalana

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #4 on: 23/11/2007 12:02 »
Hello Bram and Martin! 

.....
http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/keris01.html

Any feedback would be appreciated!

Michael

Michael,

That site is a good place to begin your quest of keris...

An other site http://www.cimande.com/writings/keris/article.htm will lead you to believe that the writer knows about keris....

FLAMING TEXT REMOVED BY MODERATOR !!

 Come one, you must be joking, no?

Salam hangat,
Bram
« Last Edit: 24/11/2007 02:15 by EricB »
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

optimus prime

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #5 on: 23/11/2007 23:10 »
QUOTE WITH FLAMING TEXT REMOVED BY MODERATOR

Well Bram here we go again, another few days of peace, and you back at it making accusations and stupid remarks. So is this what the great Indonesian respect, humble and honour we keep hearing about!

Once again you attack Mr. Sanders by making out that he altering certificates. A man who dedicated his life to teach this style of martial arts call Silat. There is times where I bet he wish he never came across Silat, what did he get for dedicating himself, now in his later, years of his life where he should be enjoying himself and trying out new experiences, he finds nothing but grief, from an egoistic wannabee. who has nothing but hatred for Westerners and Christians.


You are using this forum for one thing and one thing only to constantly attack, creating lies and rumours,to cause rows the same way you did on Martial Arts Planet, they got rid of you, and now there no more rows. When you wrote the same muck about Pendekar on Gorka website, he took your post straight down, and he wrote to Liam to tell him he wasnt go to let his forum be used that way. So how dare you start this again. You the very guy who has been proven wrong in nearly every single thing you claim, we spent weeks on discussing the existence of Pendekar Mama you pretending he didnt exist, when you had his address ! You have been proven wrong in the past about the Keris, so now you come onto the forum and make out that Mr Sanders Certs are false, you nothing but a shi" stirrer and along with that a coward as you refuse to meet any of us to discuss these matters. You my little brother are causing more rows on this forum. When you look through you post, we find out who you think are wrong, even when facts are brought to you .

Mr Sanders
All members of PCP
Indonesian People
Indonesian Government
Indonesian Teachers
Westerners

Everyone except you !!! The mighty Bram   [lucu]

We have supply proof on the Keris been used in Combat, with written articles, photos and videos. Maybe you think Mr Sanders control the whole world media. ::)  When you wrong in a point, don't start making stupid remarks like you did in the above post, you are belittling yourself and your people. [top]

Optimus
« Last Edit: 24/11/2007 02:16 by EricB »

EricB

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #6 on: 24/11/2007 02:13 »
with all respect, you are taking it to far Bram

in another topic we discussed that we keep everyting open if te discussion is in a mature and civil way,
Now you start again accusing other people, we already know how you personal feel about PCP and their teacher Sanders.
What do you want to prove ?? In my opinion you are now starting again with flaming posts.

We don't want that here anymore, I give you a warning on behalve of our this forum's crew !

If you don't change your behaviour towards other persons you leave us no other option to ban you from our site

I'll remove the flaming texts from your last post in this thread

Ranggalana

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #7 on: 24/11/2007 02:20 »
Apologies to Eric B and forum members made uncomfortable by my post. I was not trying to prove anything, Eric, just responding to an attack on the site, but yes, I should not respond anymore. Thank you for reminding me.

Salam hangat,
Bram
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

HanaChu69

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #8 on: 25/11/2007 11:54 »
Warm Salam to everyone,

I’m in the midst of rushing for deadlines and quick reply on the above. Firstly, I would like to thank the moderators and forum crew for not imposing an immediate ban or suspension. At least there is an exception of a warning being issued and unlike my situation in the other forum. This shows that Ranggalana’s contributions and insights are being much appreciated and we will all be able to gain knowledge from them.

It would be of a great help if the moderators could extract crucial pointers on code of conduct from INFO ADMIN. Maybe my eyes are going bonkers for I can’t seem to find them. Is it possible to provide them as basic guidelines for fellow forum members? I know that some couldn’t be bother in reading them.

Thanks and regards,
HanaChu69

P.S – Optimus, thank you for enjoying my lengthy insights but I have to sit back for now for I pretty tied up with deadlines.


Gajah

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #9 on: 27/11/2007 01:59 »
Salam everyone,

Here are some Malaysian Kris forms & information for the interest of the thread :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxrykswZiC8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-_gpf6WjOE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQduCg2gbzY

Michael Lee

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #10 on: 27/11/2007 02:33 »
Thanks for links Gajah!  Do you, or does anyone else, have any information or links about the Keris fighting that was shown on last weekend's Human Weapon episode? 

Thanks!

Michael

Ranggalana

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #11 on: 02/01/2008 06:47 »
Happy New Year Everyone,

Please let me get back to this unfinished topic about keris in silat.

We have an arguement, Sanders and I, it would seem. If you read his latest article on keris you might think the same as me that he is actually talking about me there. I don't want to make this personal, so I will state the basic arguments. I say that there are NO JAWANESE SILAT THAT USE KERIS and Sanders says that THERE ARE JAWANESE SILAT THAT USE KERIS.  If this is the case, if Sanders is saying that, then we have a disagreement. If he is not talking about Javanese keris, then basically YES, Malay silat does USE THE KERIS. Here are words from Sanders' website:

"In those times even the various special thrusts with the Keris had names, like Tikam Tunggal, a solitary or one lethal strike used to end the fight. Special names were not given to thrusts in fights from bladed weapons not used in that way. Even someone with minimal education could figure that out.

This seems to be information they don’t want you to have as they fight against it SO hard I would suggest ALL of my students learn these techniques to keep these old ways alive and fight against those who seem to want to bury them and keep the Keris just a symbol. "


To these comments I would like to say: 1) The name Tikam Tunggal and the transmission of the name through alm. Edi Jafri to Sanders points towards a Malay, rather than a Jawa origin because a) the language is Malay, and b) the transmitter of the information was Malay (?) and c) Yes, unfortunately I have minimal education and hold an SMA ijazah, which I hope no one has a problem with. 

The Jawa keris is more, much more than JUST A SYMBOL. However the knowledge of the use of keris in combat was not kept by the Jawanese ancients in the movements of pencak silat or kanuragan. In fact, the concealing of the keris moves probably occured before the popularity and spread of pencak silat (through pesantrens).

There ARE people from whom you can learn the TRUE knowledge of Jawanese keris and its use in combat. There are those in Yogyakarta, and there are those in Surakarta, but also if you search probably in Banyumas, Madiun, and Cirebon too. Often these people are low profile pendekars but their combat keris knowledge is from forms and names recorded in BEKSAN, not in SILAT.

Gerak tidak Berhenti

Ranggalana.

 
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

Sabrang kidul

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #12 on: 02/01/2008 08:15 »
From what little I know, in the purely physical sense the thin layered construction of a Javanese Keris means that it stand a little chance on impact against a more massively built weapons such as golok, pedang or celurit.
Even for a quick straight stabbing movement, a pisau or badik will be as good as or better than any keris, especially the curved ones.
Therefore I tend to agree with mas Ranggalana about the impracticallity of employing keris as a physical combat weapons.

Things may be different if we talk in a metaphysical sense (which is not my department) though....

Salam
O'

EricB

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #13 on: 02/01/2008 11:47 »
With my little knowledge I also go with mas Bram,

I have never seen or heard a Keris is used in Silat on the Java Island, in Malaysia for sure there is, maybe also in Bali.

Look to the types of Keris that we have in Bali (they are bigger and more massive) it seems possible to use them as a "weapon" , but the fragile Kerisses from java is almost impossible to use as a proper weapon, they will break into peaces.

My 2 cents

f4iz

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #14 on: 02/01/2008 12:33 »
Hello All..
I don't know much about Keris. I know it is very sacred in the Javanese culture. Most likely not used for physical fight. Unlike some other bladed weapons such as the Badik, Pisau, Golok, or Celurit people don't usually use Keris in that sense.
I haven't really seen Indonesian Silat styles that use Keris as a weapon before.
Maybe some styles do use it for ilmu or as concealed weapon. In most Indonesian Silat styles they use the Golok, Pedang, Pisau, Clurit, Arbir, or Arit.
If someone asks can it be used as a weapon ? I would say yes . Reason I say is because many Silat practitioners learn to utilize anything they find as a weapon. I mean if someone can use sarung, comb, kipas, or even shoes as weapons he/she can most likely use Keris as a weapon in emergency.
Just my two cents..

Regards,
Faiz

 

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