Forum Sahabat Silat

English Version => Traditional Weapons => Topic started by: Ranggalana on 15/11/2007 17:45

Title: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 15/11/2007 17:45
Dear Sahabats,

Indonesian silat apparently doesn't teach keris fighting. Contemporary Jawanese think that the keris should not be used for fighting, and silat schools do not teach it. In Jawa literature keris is used as a weapon, to murder, to execute, and also it is used in battle, but in real life at least since the 20th century the keris has never been used physically. In the times that it was used as a weapon the keris was considered to be the last weapon.

Malaysian silat is different, the keris there is not revered in the same way as in Jawa and there are silat schools that teach keris fighting. The Malay keris is different to the Jawa keris, it has a short "pesi" and the handle is also at a different angle.

I am very interested in the new developments in keris fighting, where we have new "Pendekars" teaching keris fighting and claiming knowledge of ancient times. What are the sahabats of this forums opinions about keris in silat, particularly keris Jawa?

Salam hangat semuanya,
Bram
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Gajah on 16/11/2007 01:20
An interesting and potentially controversial subject.

I would be interested to know at what point the Kris stopped being used as a weapon in Indonesia but continued so in Malaysia. Do you have any pointers Bram?

It would seem to me, that something that obviously initially represented a weapon, has at some point in history come to be imbued with differing meaning depending on geography. However, wasn't the geography a political one imposed by colonists? ie. Dutch & British?

I'm in a curious position with regard to this. I study a Javanese silat rooted in pre colonial times(allegedly) that found it's way to Malaysia as a family system. The later stages of training do indeed contain some Kris fighting.

I wonder if this is either, a remnant from the Javanese origins or a Malaysian 'add on' that was more culturally acceptable.

So, what do the historical records suggest? What was the turning point?
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 16/11/2007 11:34

I would be interested to know at what point the Kris stopped being used as a weapon in Indonesia but continued so in Malaysia. Do you have any pointers Bram?
...
So, what do the historical records suggest? What was the turning point?


Hi Martin,

The problem about keris discussions is that there are no real experts who know everything there is to know, and also, when there are very knowledgable people often they disagree with eachother on many things.

Most researchers agree that keris reached its peak in Majapahit and spread out from there. By the Majapahit time Jawa keris had evolved to include most current dhapurs (profiles) and ricikans (features). Many features do not have a form that follows a physical function, as by Majapahit times the keris was no more ONLY a physical weapon. In fact, because a keris is made by uniting a ganja and a wilah, from the beginning it is a symbol and not only a knife.

In literature describing Majapahit wars you have keris fights. In Bali's puputan in 1908 (?) you have jurnalists reporting the employment of keris. In early Islamic Mataram and Kartasura literature you have keris used in fighting, and in Sultan Agung's reign, all his officers' kerises were decorated with 'kinatah' in the form of an elephant and a lion (kinatah gajah-singo) to celebrate his sacking of the petty king of Pati. After that Sultan Agung failed twice to kick the Dutch out of Batavia, and it is said that later he created the wayang character 'buta cakil'. Buta Cakil is has a keris and sometimes two but always gets killed by his own blade...

I have a feeling that this complete defeat in Batavia and the Cakil character had an impact on the status of keris in Jawa. On top of that, add the superstitious Dutch that were here at the time, all serve to make the keris ever more mystical. Saying that, keris Jawa, keris Bali, keris Lombok, keris Bugis, keris Sumatra, and keris Melayu, all have different ways of handling - beda cara mainnya. A keris Jawa is used not only for stabing but also for -ngiris - slicing. It is held in a unique grip that you are taught in classical dance. Other regions kerises are shaped different to the keris Jawa, and are employed differently too.

Please, more knowledgable sahabat, illustrate more about keris in silat.

Salam hangat,
Bram.
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Michael Lee on 21/11/2007 04:29
Hello Bram and Martin! 

In my research for the upcoming post I will be making about the Keris, I was directed to this website and thought you'd be interested. 

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/keris01.html

Any feedback would be appreciated!

Michael
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 23/11/2007 12:02
Hello Bram and Martin! 

.....
http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/keris01.html

Any feedback would be appreciated!

Michael

Michael,

That site is a good place to begin your quest of keris...

An other site http://www.cimande.com/writings/keris/article.htm will lead you to believe that the writer knows about keris....

FLAMING TEXT REMOVED BY MODERATOR !!

 Come one, you must be joking, no?

Salam hangat,
Bram
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: optimus prime on 23/11/2007 23:10
QUOTE WITH FLAMING TEXT REMOVED BY MODERATOR

Well Bram here we go again, another few days of peace, and you back at it making accusations and stupid remarks. So is this what the great Indonesian respect, humble and honour we keep hearing about!

Once again you attack Mr. Sanders by making out that he altering certificates. A man who dedicated his life to teach this style of martial arts call Silat. There is times where I bet he wish he never came across Silat, what did he get for dedicating himself, now in his later, years of his life where he should be enjoying himself and trying out new experiences, he finds nothing but grief, from an egoistic wannabee. who has nothing but hatred for Westerners and Christians.


You are using this forum for one thing and one thing only to constantly attack, creating lies and rumours,to cause rows the same way you did on Martial Arts Planet, they got rid of you, and now there no more rows. When you wrote the same muck about Pendekar on Gorka website, he took your post straight down, and he wrote to Liam to tell him he wasnt go to let his forum be used that way. So how dare you start this again. You the very guy who has been proven wrong in nearly every single thing you claim, we spent weeks on discussing the existence of Pendekar Mama you pretending he didnt exist, when you had his address ! You have been proven wrong in the past about the Keris, so now you come onto the forum and make out that Mr Sanders Certs are false, you nothing but a shi" stirrer and along with that a coward as you refuse to meet any of us to discuss these matters. You my little brother are causing more rows on this forum. When you look through you post, we find out who you think are wrong, even when facts are brought to you .

Mr Sanders
All members of PCP
Indonesian People
Indonesian Government
Indonesian Teachers
Westerners

Everyone except you !!! The mighty Bram   [lucu]

We have supply proof on the Keris been used in Combat, with written articles, photos and videos. Maybe you think Mr Sanders control the whole world media. ::)  When you wrong in a point, don't start making stupid remarks like you did in the above post, you are belittling yourself and your people. [top]

Optimus
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: EricB on 24/11/2007 02:13
with all respect, you are taking it to far Bram

in another topic we discussed that we keep everyting open if te discussion is in a mature and civil way,
Now you start again accusing other people, we already know how you personal feel about PCP and their teacher Sanders.
What do you want to prove ?? In my opinion you are now starting again with flaming posts.

We don't want that here anymore, I give you a warning on behalve of our this forum's crew !

If you don't change your behaviour towards other persons you leave us no other option to ban you from our site

I'll remove the flaming texts from your last post in this thread
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 24/11/2007 02:20
Apologies to Eric B and forum members made uncomfortable by my post. I was not trying to prove anything, Eric, just responding to an attack on the site, but yes, I should not respond anymore. Thank you for reminding me.

Salam hangat,
Bram
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: HanaChu69 on 25/11/2007 11:54
Warm Salam to everyone,

I’m in the midst of rushing for deadlines and quick reply on the above. Firstly, I would like to thank the moderators and forum crew for not imposing an immediate ban or suspension. At least there is an exception of a warning being issued and unlike my situation in the other forum. This shows that Ranggalana’s contributions and insights are being much appreciated and we will all be able to gain knowledge from them.

It would be of a great help if the moderators could extract crucial pointers on code of conduct from INFO ADMIN. Maybe my eyes are going bonkers for I can’t seem to find them. Is it possible to provide them as basic guidelines for fellow forum members? I know that some couldn’t be bother in reading them.

Thanks and regards,
HanaChu69

P.S – Optimus, thank you for enjoying my lengthy insights but I have to sit back for now for I pretty tied up with deadlines.

Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Gajah on 27/11/2007 01:59
Salam everyone,

Here are some Malaysian Kris forms & information for the interest of the thread :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxrykswZiC8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-_gpf6WjOE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQduCg2gbzY
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Michael Lee on 27/11/2007 02:33
Thanks for links Gajah!  Do you, or does anyone else, have any information or links about the Keris fighting that was shown on last weekend's Human Weapon episode? 

Thanks!

Michael
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 02/01/2008 06:47
Happy New Year Everyone,

Please let me get back to this unfinished topic about keris in silat.

We have an arguement, Sanders and I, it would seem. If you read his latest article on keris you might think the same as me that he is actually talking about me there. I don't want to make this personal, so I will state the basic arguments. I say that there are NO JAWANESE SILAT THAT USE KERIS and Sanders says that THERE ARE JAWANESE SILAT THAT USE KERIS.  If this is the case, if Sanders is saying that, then we have a disagreement. If he is not talking about Javanese keris, then basically YES, Malay silat does USE THE KERIS. Here are words from Sanders' website:

"In those times even the various special thrusts with the Keris had names, like Tikam Tunggal, a solitary or one lethal strike used to end the fight. Special names were not given to thrusts in fights from bladed weapons not used in that way. Even someone with minimal education could figure that out.

This seems to be information they don’t want you to have as they fight against it SO hard I would suggest ALL of my students learn these techniques to keep these old ways alive and fight against those who seem to want to bury them and keep the Keris just a symbol. "

To these comments I would like to say: 1) The name Tikam Tunggal and the transmission of the name through alm. Edi Jafri to Sanders points towards a Malay, rather than a Jawa origin because a) the language is Malay, and b) the transmitter of the information was Malay (?) and c) Yes, unfortunately I have minimal education and hold an SMA ijazah, which I hope no one has a problem with. 

The Jawa keris is more, much more than JUST A SYMBOL. However the knowledge of the use of keris in combat was not kept by the Jawanese ancients in the movements of pencak silat or kanuragan. In fact, the concealing of the keris moves probably occured before the popularity and spread of pencak silat (through pesantrens).

There ARE people from whom you can learn the TRUE knowledge of Jawanese keris and its use in combat. There are those in Yogyakarta, and there are those in Surakarta, but also if you search probably in Banyumas, Madiun, and Cirebon too. Often these people are low profile pendekars but their combat keris knowledge is from forms and names recorded in BEKSAN, not in SILAT.

Gerak tidak Berhenti

Ranggalana.

 
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Sabrang kidul on 02/01/2008 08:15
From what little I know, in the purely physical sense the thin layered construction of a Javanese Keris means that it stand a little chance on impact against a more massively built weapons such as golok, pedang or celurit.
Even for a quick straight stabbing movement, a pisau or badik will be as good as or better than any keris, especially the curved ones.
Therefore I tend to agree with mas Ranggalana about the impracticallity of employing keris as a physical combat weapons.

Things may be different if we talk in a metaphysical sense (which is not my department) though....

Salam
O'
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: EricB on 02/01/2008 11:47
With my little knowledge I also go with mas Bram,

I have never seen or heard a Keris is used in Silat on the Java Island, in Malaysia for sure there is, maybe also in Bali.

Look to the types of Keris that we have in Bali (they are bigger and more massive) it seems possible to use them as a "weapon" , but the fragile Kerisses from java is almost impossible to use as a proper weapon, they will break into peaces.

My 2 cents
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: f4iz on 02/01/2008 12:33
Hello All..
I don't know much about Keris. I know it is very sacred in the Javanese culture. Most likely not used for physical fight. Unlike some other bladed weapons such as the Badik, Pisau, Golok, or Celurit people don't usually use Keris in that sense.
I haven't really seen Indonesian Silat styles that use Keris as a weapon before.
Maybe some styles do use it for ilmu or as concealed weapon. In most Indonesian Silat styles they use the Golok, Pedang, Pisau, Clurit, Arbir, or Arit.
If someone asks can it be used as a weapon ? I would say yes . Reason I say is because many Silat practitioners learn to utilize anything they find as a weapon. I mean if someone can use sarung, comb, kipas, or even shoes as weapons he/she can most likely use Keris as a weapon in emergency.
Just my two cents..

Regards,
Faiz
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: EricB on 02/01/2008 23:43
Reason I say is because many Silat practitioners learn to utilize anything they find as a weapon. I mean if someone can use sarung, comb, kipas, or even shoes ............

Most people won't have to fight if they wair shoes  ??? 
just open them and the oponent runs for his life (think of Al Bundy)  [lucu] ;D
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Russian Silat on 03/01/2008 06:35
Warm Wishes for all for a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year!

I'm glad that we can continue to discuss keris fighting in a gentlemanly way.

Mr. Bram indicated that "there are no Javanese Silat" use the keris, but then at the end of his post he said:

"There ARE people from whom you can learn the TRUE knowledge of Jawanese keris and its use in combat. There are those in Yogyakarta, and there are those in Surakarta, but also if you search probably in Banyumas, Madiun, and Cirebon too. Often these people are low profile pendekars but their combat keris knowledge is from forms and names recorded in BEKSAN, not in SILAT."

Mr. Bram, would you care to clarify?

Are there, or are there not places in Java where one might find the keris taught in a fighting application?

Indeed, William Sanders has always maintained that the keratons were the places where this knowledge is preserved. It seems to me that the argument has come full circle, and that you in fact agree with him now.

As for the limitations of the construction of the keris, Pendekar Sanders was taught that this was actually part of the construction. If one handles the weapon properly, there is no probem, but if one tries to use the keris without proper training, it will let one down at the 'moment of truth'.

"Beksan" is indeed considered more of a dance, but to people who do not understand Pencak Silat, it too seems to be merely a dance...

In Silat the dancing reflects the fighting, and the fighting, to my knowledge, never mimics a dance.

Pendekar Jafri travelled all over Java collecting keris combat techniques from various masters. Pendekar Jafri was not born in Java, but spent most of his life there. If some of the terminology is Malay, this in no way casts aspersions on the legitimacy of the knowledge.

If one reads our website first hand, nowhere there will it be found stated that keris fighting is part of any specific Javanese Silat style. It is part of PCP as taught and given by Pendekar Jafri, who is well-documented as an authority on Javanese Silat, and who actively publicized his knowledge of keris fighting.

Perhaps he learned from some of these places Mr. Bram mentioned?

Incidentally, for anyone who has been assiduously following this dialogue, it was first stated by Mr. Bram that the keris (along with the kucang) was purely talismanic, havng no combat appplications. Then he admitted that such applications once existed, but now are obsolete. Then he maintained they do exist, but only on other Islands. Now, he admits that such techniques may exist in several places on Java, but are rarely taught.

This is exactly what we have been saying all along.

It seems we are finally in agreement!

Happy New Year,

Russian Silat
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 03/01/2008 07:23
....Indeed, William Sanders has always maintained that the keratons were the places where this knowledge is preserved. ...

Pendekar Jafri travelled all over Java collecting keris combat techniques from various masters. Pendekar Jafri was not born in Java, but spent most of his life there. If some of the terminology is Malay, this in no way casts aspersions on the legitimacy of the knowledge. ......

.....

Incidentally, for anyone who has been assiduously following this dialogue, it was first stated by Mr. Bram that the keris (along with the kucang) was purely talismanic, havng no combat appplications. Then he admitted that such applications once existed, but now are obsolete. Then he maintained they do exist, but only on other Islands. Now, he admits that such techniques may exist in several places on Java, but are rarely taught.

This is exactly what we have been saying all along.

It seems we are finally in agreement!

Happy New Year,

Russian Silat


Mr Walls, I don't think we agree at all and here is why:

1. "Tikam Tunggal" refers to a Malay origin. I don't believe Jafri alm. studied keris fighting in Jawa because there is none. (BTW, H Masagung the keris colector mentioned by Sanders is ethnic Chineses, btw, not a keris expert, just a keris lover).

2. I don't believe that Sanders has relationships with any Jawa kraton. Who and where and when did this contact take place? I can validate these claims easily.

3. Keris and Kujang NOW are not physical weapons. There was a time when the kujang was an agricultural tool and the keris was a side-arm, but after Amangkurat sold the Jawa Armada, the keris became more sinengker. BTW, knowledge of Jawa ship building is hidden in the ladrang form of the wrangka.

4. You can look for remnants of the knowledge of keris fighting in beksan (dance). Dance is considered a kraton art but pencak silat is not. But again it is very hard to believe that Sanders got his knowledge from the Kraton. Which Kraton? Who taught Sanders?   

So what I  think is the truth is this: Alm Jafri learned the keris either from Malay silat, or from reverse engineering and taught it to Sanders, who learned it without knowing the definite origin. Alm Jafri maybe was not careful to show the differences of Malay, Bugis, Bali, Sumatra, and Jawa keris and the way that they are employed. I can't see him holding the keris in the right Jawa way in any photo!

Now Sanders is teaching Indonesian keris fighting. This reflects his limited knowledge in the matter. There is no such thing as an Indonesian keris... you must chose, Jawa, Sumatra, Malay, Lombok, Bali, Bugis and so on... the keris are different, have a different status, have different angled handles and so on.

On a personal note, I have experienced your stories about me getting beaten in a sparring with a young PCP boy and I know that story is not true. I believe that alot of your claims on keris, ilmu kebatinan, Untung Surapati and so on, are all formed  by your unique definition of the truth which is very personal and imaginative.

Good luck with your Indonesian keris fighting seminar. I hope that you have a good laugh.

Salam hangat,
Bram


PS: Kang Eric, there are good Jawa keris that would make a sturdy weapon.
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: f4iz on 03/01/2008 08:17
Most people won't have to fight if they wair shoes  ??? 
just open them and the oponent runs for his life (think of Al Bundy)  [lucu] ;D
Salam Kang Eric,
Is this considered ilmu Halus...the oponent would smell before he feels the feet kick him  ;D
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: optimus prime on 04/01/2008 02:56
 

Quote from: Bram
On a personal note, I have experienced your stories about me getting beaten in a sparring with a young PCP boy and I know that story is not true. I believe that alot of your claims on keris, ilmu kebatinan, Untung Surapati and so on, are all formed  by your unique definition of the truth which is very personal and imaginative.

Good luck with your Indonesian keris fighting seminar. I hope that you have a good laugh.

Salam hangat,
Bram
Hello Bram

I going straight to the point Bram

1) I think you have split personalites because on the malay forum you are very respectful to us at PCP all meek and trying to gain influence, while at the same time you still here ranting. In my view its disgusting how you still trying to sprew malice.

2) You are also a liar! For saying the above didnt happen the young guy who landed on your backside was a Mr Gavin Byrne, you know this fine well, beacause in the past you have talk about this, at one time saying, you had no silat training (which we now know thats a lie) you just bad at it (check bram out at the event in London its on another thread on this forum) this young lad, came to you in good faith and you tried it on, and he landed on your backside, in front of your indonesian friends, who laugh. How dare you say this didnt happen, if you prepared to make up lies over something so simple, what else are you prepared to make lies up about???? like maybe Pendekar mama doesnt exist, when you had his address all the time. Shame on you Bram. Mr Gavin Byrne's would like to meet you, to discuss this

Maybe when you return to London, we can have a rematch if you up for it, it may refresh your memory as your memory is at time woeful. Stop telling lies and maybe one day you might get some respect :-[

.

[quote repaired by moderator]
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: EricB on 04/01/2008 04:04
Please guys,

take this discussion to another place, this wil be another topic way of subject.
I urge you to go back on-topic, otherwise I delete the whole content of this argument between the two of you [polisi]

thnx in advance
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: mantis on 04/01/2008 04:16
Bram , wow , you realy must run for some political office if you have not allready !!! The way you get caught up in things you have listed as "the way it is ", and then twist and turn and actualy sound like you were right all the while  when proved wrong is truly a political advantage for you . Russian Silat , for those who dont want to follow all the threads back , is one hundred percent smack on  in his last post . Bram said  their was no Keris fighting in Java , Sanders said the knowledge was still to be found their if you new were to look . Then Bram said it IS actualy  their if you know where to look  ???     Then when caught up on this Bram says who in the Kraton did Sanders learn from, as if anyone ever said that  ? I have read that site and followed these posts and I have NEVER seen Sanders say he learned Silat from anyone in any kraton , if I am wrong I am sorry , just show me  where he says that ? It is clear to me he says Jafri was able to find these same people who Bram all of a sudden remembered have some  old knowledge  of Keris fighting and that is who he learned it from . Talking about where Jafri was born  ???    Or making up a story about Sanders learning from the Kraton, then calling him on somthing he never said ,  BOY your killing me hahahahahahaha. Maybe you should be a comedian instead of a politician as I cant see anyone taking your story  twisting "facts " as even remotly serious. I think there will be a lot of laughing at that keris seminar , about you!!!!! It is SO plain all you want to do is cause row after row after row , hey when you cant find a problem just make up the facts and then attack . You are good for a good laugh though hahahahahahahahaha.
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 04/01/2008 06:51
Appart from the insults, do you guys have ANY PROOF AT ALL that keris fighting is traditionally taught in Jawanese silat anywhere?

I point out a mistake: Sanders advertises a seminar on Indonesian keris fighting, while there is really no such thing as Indonesian keris, it is Jawa, Bali, Madura or what have you, but Indonesia is a NEW entity and not really asosciated with keris.

How can you say words like TIKAM TUNGGAL (which are Malay) are instruction on Jawa keris? As you say, Jafri was from Kalimantan (was he a Banjar Malay, perhaps?) and grew up in Riau (heartland of Malayness) so there is a big possibility that he taught Sanders Malay keris fighting not Jawa keris fighting. It is NOT possible that he taught Sanders Jawa keris fighting because :

            - Jawa keris fighting doesn't exist anymore.
            - Jafri holds the keris contrary to the Jawa way of holding a keris in combat.

It is as simple as that.

The rest is plain logic: if you publicly lie about me on the internet you could easily lie about other things as well.

Sometimes you are just mistaken and misguided, like when you think that 'animal possesion' is ilmu, when it is really just 'dolanan cah angon' being packaged and sold as ilmu to the gullible. 

Back to Indonesian keris fighting, I think that the proof should come from your teacher who says that there is such a thing and asks people to pay to learn it from him. Why? Because it doesn't make sense that someone is teaching Indonesian keris fighting, when Indonesian keris are, upon examination, either Jawa, Bali, Madura or what have you, but NOT Indonesian.

Please don't take this discussion as slander and please lay off the insults!


Salam hangat,
Ranggalana
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: mantis on 04/01/2008 08:30
no problem  you first .  Your posts are full of insults . As for facts your contention there is no such thing as an Indonesian keris is  realy silly .( your killing me again hahahahaha) That is like saying there is no such thing as Indonesian Pencak Silat . Or Their is no such thing as Chinese Kung fu or Japanese Karate . This is what i mean by making me laugh  :D  Of course EVERYONE knows their are variations and differances in the areas they come from . Just as their is Silat from, Java or Bali etc ,but all under the one label now of Indonesia  for sake of generality , just like in the past at one time it was all the Majapahit empire etc etc . These are fine points that only  appear to make you have a point , when in fact you have NONE  in substance . Maybe to some one who knows nothing it sounds impressive . Take the act on the road please .  As for the keris lets not hoodwink the people who dont know that much and may think, My God that Bali Keris must be a world apart from a Java Keris . One must need a completly different technology to use one than the other . hahahahahaha Again I am laughing . If  you were to remove the handles from a Bali Keris ( not all of them by  the way are large , but some are ) and the wranka and place them on a table for the average person to see they would all look the same . Yes their are small differances in the Ganja , etc but basicaly you have a body of the blade , straight or with luk,  the ganja which is mostly seperate but not allways and the peksi that the handle goes on . The construction and baisc idea are the same . The  handles  are all mostly put on with a wrapping arround the Peksi with cloth , so they are held on by pressure . The handles mostly made of wood can also be metal or ivory or vegetable ivory etc . Yes in certain blades the handle position puts the blade at a slightly different angle BUT THEY ALL MUST CONTACT THE TARGET THE SAME WAY AS PENDAKR SANDERS EXPLAINS OR THEY WILL FAIL AND THIS IS TRUE .The grips are NOT all that different either , Usualy  a pincher type grip is used as explaiined in Pendekar Sanders book and backed up by Pendekar Giesens excellent Keris book which agrees one hundred percent with Sanders book.  Your contention that there is the giant differance is like saying , hey you can drive a Mercedes BUT that is a BMW ohhhhhh you cant drive that one , you must learn a new technology  :w You attempt to judge  an entire mans art and what he knew about the keris from a short video of him moving a Keris ,(Jafri) which you can  not . You cant even tell what type that is as it can not  seen that well . Jafri was a revered Master and an expert who traveled  all ofer JAVA , get that JAVA,  I can say it again if you like because you love to keep saying where he was born ignoring all the posts that tell you he SPENT THE MAJORITY OF HIS ADULT LIFE IN JAVA STUDYING JAVANESE ARTS INCLUDING THE KERIS. Again you are sticking to a point that has no point as if where he was born makes one iota of a differance as to where he wound up and who he got information from . What Sanders is doing is teaching a lost art then , if no one still practices it as a whole but he says that  clearly . Whichis great !!!! By the way Bakti Negara of Bali teaches Keris fighting , they even now have a video out on it .  Bakti Negara came to Bali from the majapahit empire when it fell to Islam. According to the Bakti guys I have talked to they say their art is the closest to the old  Java Silat at that time and here they are using the Keris and guese what it looks very much like what Pendekar Sanders teaches from the short clips I have seen on that video  [top] . Get over it Bram we are teaching real keris fighting , we know the differances in the grips and the pictures on Pendekar Sanders web site are just poses  with out content of fighting, look at his book if you want to see more .  But that is yet another way for you to APPEAR to have a point .  By the way since their is not Keris fighting in Java their would have been no one to show you the correct way to hold the Java Keris in combat so realy have no idea of how it is held , if some one did show you that ooops IT DOES EXIST  ::)
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 04/01/2008 10:34
Mantis,

You would communicate much better if you used paragraphs in your writting. Also if you had a real name, it would be easier to relate to you. Again I ask for PROOF that keris fighting is taught in traditional silat... not hearsay from a dead man or a "Pendekar".

Saying that, for me, it is great and fine if you think that Sanders is the holder of a lost Jawa art, namely keris fighting.  I think (and many more knowledgable people in Jawa) think that you are wrong.

Great and fine if you think that alm. Jafri studied Jawa keris fighting in his travels all over Jawa, I think that he did not because no traditional silat teacher / school here taught it!

Fine also if you think there are only small differences between keris Jawa and, keris Bali, or keris Bugis. This shows your level of understanding.

I suspect that you are taking the word of your teachers who I know can't speak or read Indonesian, let alone Jawanese or Sundanese. Yet they pose as  authorities on keris and you guys believe them.

My part to state the truth in keris in relation to Jawa, Indonesia and silat is complete. I will stop posting about keris in silat here.

But your statement that Bhakti Negara originated from Majapahit is wrong. Go study the history of Bhakti Negara and don't post nonsense.

Salam hangat,

Bram



Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: mantis on 04/01/2008 11:24
Ok, but I said if you take those keris apart and put them on a table the average person would not see much differance , they are all constructed the same way . Your meaning  that their is much more  refelcts things like  the pamor, dapur  and intent to which they were made .  The handles and religous influence and materials used to make them  Yes that is quite different. It has NO bearing on how they are handled if you are talking about using them in combat  as  to how they can work and how they can not work . I am well aware of the differences in the keris having kept , read , studied and used them  for many many years .You are not talking to a beginner in the keris , nor am i only relying on what my teacher or one other teacher told me . Please dont make assumptions like that . The way the Balanise finish their blades is quite different than the finish by a Javanese empu , one feeling   much more rough than the other , as well as many diiferances in the greneng , tingal etc , These are fine points for study but , again do not have much bearing on how the blade is used in combat , or the weak parts and strong parts of the weapon that one must know to use it effectivly .     You know the many names attached to the small portions can also go  on a long time with no bearing on pure physical attributes of the blade ,  bawang, janur , sigikan etc etc etc .  Now the finale shape of the ganja , the Kanyut for example does  matter . And we are aware of that use .You are still not getting it that Jafri was on an expedition to find facts here and their from various sources and not to find a complete system from one person , or school . Just as you indicated those people could be found , he found them  also  and put together that info ,not all from one person . We have what was left of what he found and dont attribute it to any one school.  It is that simple  . Please dont denigrate his great memory because he is dead , we honor him and what he left us , its that simple . Now for the B. N. I did not make that up, nor did Sanders tell me  but I  was told that very story by every B.N player I met on my visits to Bali . Bram it is very common knowledge that many of the great empus fled to Bali as well  at that time . Do you think none of them had knowledge of how to use a keris ?  Are they correct in that their art contains a lot of the old Javanese silat , I dont know I was not their , but it was what they told me and this from a few  masters of that art  as well so I cant say they are wrong and I dont think you can either . I can say they have Keris fighting techniqes they attribute to that time period and that look very similar to what we do in many respects . By the way I saw you made a post that the secret of ship builders was in the Ladring Katipaten. used to think this also as it looks that way , but I was corrected by a Javanese Pande that it was actualy a jungle orchid , although commonly  thought of as a boat . im not sure but that is what he said. All may not be what it appears on the surface. 
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 04/01/2008 11:55
Ok, but I said if you take those keris apart and put them on a table the average person would not see much differance , they are all constructed the same way .

Jawa keris from different tangguh have different characteristics too. For example, keris luk tangguh Pengging has luk rengkol, while tangguh Majapahit has luk sedheng. While keris luk tangguh kabudan .... don't exist hehehe.

But generally speaking, a Bugis keris would be most often a keris lurus with a mucuk rebung shape, rather thick and sturdy designed to be used in fighting. The handle would be fixed so that in a pistol grip the blade would lay paralel to the ground. And it would be most often post 1400.

Malay keris and Sumatran keris are very much like Bugis keris in construction, in that they are sturdy and strong. The handles are also put on in a similar way. Bali keris are alot larger than Jawa keris or Bugis keris. And as you say, they are polished, leaving a smooth blade.

Bakti Negara began by people like Gusti Ngurah Rai during Independence Revolution but was formalized in 1950's ... It is based on Sundanese silats, mainly Cimande, Cikaret, and Cikalong. Bali, like Jawa, doesn't have indigenous silat. The silat in Jawa and Bali is relatively new but the keris is relatively ancient.

I am not disrespecting alm. Jafri when I say it is highly unlikely that he learned to fight with a Jawa keris from a Jawa silat teacher. If he had, he would not use Malay terms for the moves of keris combat, would he? In fact, if he was Jawanese, he would have treated the keris somewhat differently, I am sure.

Did Sanders and Geissen ever learn to speak Indonesian and / or Jawanese which would be needed to pose as an expert on Jawa keris, don't you think? Fact is, these gentlemen don't speak Indonesian or Jawanese and might be good pesilat but are misleading in their teachings about Jawa keris.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.

 
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: EricB on 04/01/2008 12:54
OK guys,

I see you are back on-topic again  [top]
but please keep those other things out, please stay on the subject, at least try to ;)


@ Mr. Mantis can you tell us something about yourself, maybe make a post in the welcome section  >> click here << (http://sahabatsilat.com/forum/index.php?topic=15)
BTW I already know, but for our members its also nice to know who they are debating with  8)
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 04/01/2008 13:27
.. Bram it is very common knowledge that many of the great empus fled to Bali as well  at that time . Do you think none of them had knowledge of how to use a keris ?...

Actually, Mantis,

All the great keris Mpu from Majapahit remained in Jawa and did not join the exodus to Bali. They continued to serve in Madura, Tuban, Demak, Pajang and Mataram untill now. So you have the late Mpu Djeno, a direct descendant from Mpu Supa Mandragi / Pangeran Sedayu.

The same with the Padjadjaran Mpu, they did not stay in Sundaland after the fall of their kingdom, rather they emigrated east and worked in Majapahit, Tuban, Demak, pajang and then Mataram as well. So you have Mpu Sombro in Tuban and Mpu Umyang in Madiun.

Bali had its own different type of keris since the Majapahit era.

Salam hangat

Ranggalana.
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: mantis on 04/01/2008 14:07
I am a student of Pendekar Sanders and use the computer at our training place where he has a computer so Eric yes it has his address . Now back to the keris .The luk you speak of are more important to the tua of the blade than to combat applications . Maylay, Bugis , Sumatran Keris do have heavy thick blades as a rule and while those bird shaped type handles may be fixed and put the blade at a different angle relative  to the handle , it is in the end still a small wooden , ivory etc handle with a metal Peksi stuck in it that will explode if the keris is used incorrectly . Bali Keris can be small and large , Peksi handle connection still applies . Wrankas are all strong in some areas weak in many others.  asked and was told those terms listed on Pendekar Sanders site did not even come from Jafri, nor am aware he said they did ? Those terms I have seen listed in various texts on the keris and show anyway a culture who was versed in the application of combat principles to the Keris . Better to not jump to conclusions , then from that speculation state the end result as a fact . The language criteria is not accurate , many great keris vollumes have been translated in Dutch , French , English ett some  even translated from sanskrit on palm leaves . Studying these for those who dont kneo the language can give a great amount of knowledge on history and terminology ,tua , Dapur etc. one learns the language as it relates to the blade .  But to learn the fighting applications it seems one now needs a good teacher and then those moves are the moves wether you speak Indonesian or  Martian. That said Pendeakr sanders isnsits we  study the parts of the keris and the terminology as best we can to imerse ourselves in the nature of the blade and to honor the empus and Pande who made them .
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: mantis on 04/01/2008 14:16
sorry I forgot to add the story about the  many Javanese comming to Bali. it  is common knowledge their , indeed their are pockets of Javanese that date their ancestory back to the Majapahit and it is also commonly told in Bali that many empu fled there.  Even on the tours I went on in certain cultural centers   that information was spoken about . I was told the Bali Keris is the closest thing one can see to a Majapahit Keris now , yes it changed a bit over time . Again it is their story not mine . Also the B.N. Players I spoke to were  convinced that the Javanses portions of their art came from that time period also . Of course  you can list things that you or others say and believe  but if you go to Bali they have another side and a written book by a Bali Keris . . Personaly   I am convinced many Javanese from the Majapahit fled to Bali as supported in the book listed below . as for B.N I have no idea only that they believe it is so . I will also add that you should obtain the book Keris Bali by I.B. Dibia ,written in Indonesian , english and french . Here it lists the exodus from Java to Bali . It even lists an empu that came from east Java  to Bali in the middle of the third century . The info is way to long to type here . The entire back of the book is pamor from the lontars and sanskrit. Much information is here as to the names of the Keris that came here from Majapahit , the people etc even theories  why the blades are a bit different . I.B. Dibea was the formost authority on the Bali Keris (deceased )
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 04/01/2008 14:33
....Now back to the keris .The luk you speak of are more important to the tua of the blade than to combat applications . .... asked and was told those terms listed on Pendekar Sanders site did not even come from Jafri, nor am aware he said they did ? Those terms I have seen listed in various texts on the keris and show anyway a culture who was versed in the application of combat principles to the Keris . Better to not jump to conclusions , then from that speculation state the end result as a fact . The language criteria is not accurate , many great keris vollumes have been translated in Dutch , French , English ett some  even translated from sanskrit on palm leaves . Studying these for those who dont kneo the language can give a great amount of knowledge on history and terminology ,tua , Dapur etc. one learns the language as it relates to the blade .  But to learn the fighting applications it seems one now needs a good teacher and then those moves are the moves wether you speak Indonesian or  Martian. That said Pendeakr sanders isnsits we  study the parts of the keris and the terminology as best we can to imerse ourselves in the nature of the blade and to honor the empus and Pande who made them .


Mantis, below; your teacher's words from his site:

But here in Print from an old magazine from the 1980's is an article On Pencak Silat and here in actual photos is Pendekar Jafri CHOOSING to demonstrate one of the many Keris fighting moves he showed me in Keris to Keris encounter under a title, The Weapons of Pencak Silat. Note it does not say the Talismans of Pencak Silat or the Icons it says WEAPONS. This is only to make clear he DID openly show how to fight with the keris. He showed me all he had discovered in that realm and I searched for even more. I teach this information and have a video tape and book on the subject.
In those times even the various special thrusts with the Keris had names, like Tikam Tunggal, a solitary or one lethal strike used to end the fight. Special names were not given to thrusts in fights from bladed weapons not used in that way. Even someone with minimal education could figure that out.


Tikam Tunggal is Malay, my friend.

And the luk relates to the tuah and has no relevance in combat applications? This is something new to me and I would like to hear you elaborate more on this. You must be joking now, right?

About language: are you saying that in your world people like Geissen and Sanders don't need Indonesian or Jawanese to be knowledgable on keris?

And if there are any books in English, Dutch or French on keris translated from Sanskrit on palm leaves, please list them. I believe that you are making this statement up without substance and you can't back up these claims.

There are a few good books on keris, and those good ones have several fatal mistakes in their explanations. To find these out, one needs intimate knowledge of Jawanese, which neither Gerr Geissen or Sanders have.

And about Bakti Negara, why not try wikipedia before you make sweeping statements?

Keris Majapahit are definitely different to keris Bali. Of course there are Bali families that trace their ancestry to Majapahit - the same with Jawa families my friend.

Bali was always Bali and Jawa was always Jawa even though often governed by the same King. Keris Bali and keris Jawa have always been different, namely in the size and the treatment of the blade surface, but also in the treatment of the keris itself. The Mpu keris from Majapahit DID NOT move to Bali when Islam came, their lineages are still here in Jawa. Other religious scholars did leave Jawa, but not the Mpu keris.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana

PS. Mantis, I have studied ilmu kebatinan in Bali and have a Guru there too. Do you think that you should be lecturing here on this Indonesian forum about Bali when your information comes from your visits to 'certain cultural centers'?
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: mantis on 04/01/2008 15:14
Here you go again , you list a quote from Pendekar Sanders as though it is a quote from Pendekar jafri :-\ I am TELLING you I asked Pendekar Sanders and I explained why he listed those words . The picture is of Jafri , the words are from Sanders, not Jafri .  I just listed a book with translations from the lontar . YOU must be kidding do you think a luk three  blade is combatively that much different than a luk five blade then Wait you dont know about java Keris fighting so you are guesing then , huh  :w :Much of the Tua of the blade is linked to the amount of luk, forninstance a five luk is good for healing , a straight blade finds its own way etc etc etc .  Yes their is a differance in a straight blade and one with luk but not between a three wave and a five etc for combat . Oh yea ALL the many books translated have secret flaws in them . Im not buying it . 

 Aslo please dont be such an ASS. MAYBE I NEED TO TALK REAAALLLL SLOOOOOWWWWW FOOOORRRRR YOOOOOOUU.

 * Moderated *- comments like this is making the gap bigger, please reconsider when you reply -

Cmon you can read correct ? I am not making any statments on my own and I dont need a web page to convince  me I was halucinating when more than one Master of BN told me what I said , go to Bali and tell them to look up their art as they are wrong. If they were then they did not knwo their own art , BUT THAT IS WHAT THEY BELIEVED WHEN THEY TOLD IT TO ME , DO YOU GET THAT ???  AGAIN you act as though it is MY sweeping stament  to make a point that was never said , STOP IT !!!!!  Pendekar  Sanders also has an ilmu teacher in Bali shown in his books and he relayed the same info . Now I mentioned those cultural centers to make it clear it is common knowlege to EVERYONE  their as to what I said , you dont need secret info to hear that story , that was the reason it was given .Again the book I mentioned written  in part from the lontars and by an expert  that does not agree with all of your contentions . Again I was shown in Bali,  areas where today their are still Javanese that came their to escape and brought their trades , some Pande included .. The book I mentioned however says it begain in the third century when the first Empu came to Bali from Java . Dont get so stirred up if a few empu and Pande went to Bali . Let it go ,you will still survive . Take a deep breath .

* moderated by Eric B to make a point *
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: pekir on 04/01/2008 21:08
Here you go again  ...  Aslo please dont be such an ASS. MAYBE I NEED TO TALK REAAALLLL SLOOOOOWWWWW FOOOORRRRR YOOOOOOUU .

To my mind ... this is precisely the language that creates conflict and derails mature debate. Surely a negation does not require language that is blatantly insulting?

... Let it go ,you will still survive . Take a deep breath .

Good advice. Maybe EVERYONE should heed it?

Salam,
Krisno Pryosusilo

Hi Mas Krisno,

Been a while, Happy New Year to you (and all the other members of course)

Maybe if we all 'Take a deep breath' we can actually work on our tenaga dalam instead of acting up all the time and wasting our precious breath  :)
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: mantis on 04/01/2008 22:03
Yes , it would appear that wasting breath is not a good idea . I am  sorry I placed those words the way I did BUT, when you make a comment about something you were told and some one keeps acting like those are your words over and over , it would apear that the person doing that is the one realy wanting to raise the temperature .  It was designed to draw attention to the fact I was repeating imformation direclty from the qaulified  sources listed, right or wrong but the messenger kept being shot . I will not post on this  issue again as the facts I have stated stand as they are . Some one can keep comming back to it but that does not change it. We will have to agree to disagree . Once again if you realy want to be positive ,then spend as much time on positive posts as negative ones ,for instance michael Lee made a good post to talk of training  inanother thread and not ONE  single reply  in a week ? Maybe if people here would have just talked about the techniques they say dont exist  in the Keris, everyone could have learned somthing and shared the knowledge  I notice that it seems to be more fun for some to just ridicule than say , well lets share those techniques and see where it leads ?? I can't devote more energy on this endles fight  , think also about the tone of  the replies as well as the characters in the spelling  of my words . I realy would have much rather discused the way the Keris is used than to keep harping on who what where and why and that it is not . Negativity allways leads to this conclusion.  I  must get to my chores .
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: EricB on 04/01/2008 22:04
Thanx for your positive point of view to Krisno and Pekir  [top]
nothing to add here.

to Mr. Mantis:

I am a student of Pendekar Sanders and use the computer at our training place where he has a computer so Eric yes it has his address .

How do I know who I'm talking to, it could wel be William Sanders himself, or you (who we still not know who you are) or even to another student.

Maybe it is good to sign your posts to be sure who we are replying to, either if it is the Pendekar or his student.



@ Mas Bram, I received your report, he calls you an ASS, true I did read it.
maybe it is some kind of counter reaction ;) I'm not happy with that, but we have to introspect and find the "Why"


To all:
action =/ reaction =/ action and so on ............... (some sort of circle)
we realy must try to break this circle and stick to the subject in a topic, I'm sure that is the best for us all.


kind regards Eric



Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Michael Lee on 04/01/2008 23:35
Wow!  Interesting dialogue!  Lots of good stuff to absorb.  I actually have something to say about this discussion, but I'm in the office right now and can't devote the necessary time to put into writing my thoughts.  Hopefully I'll find the time this weekend.

However!  I do have something I want to add that I think some of the forum members might find interesting..... 

I was looking around online for Keris info and found this article.  It’s about how a Keris was found buried inside a temple on Okinawa.  Apparently, prior to Okinawa becoming part of Japan in 1879, the Kingdom of Ryukyus had ties to either Malacca or Java.  I recall Jerry Jacobs telling me that he saw an old film clip of Karate guys moving around in a manner that was similar to Silat.  I’m guessing this is somehow all related.

http://hulubalang-lagenda.tripod.com/keris.html

Enjoy!
Michael

P.S. Just to head off any possible misunderstanding.... This post is not saying that PCP is in any way connected with Okinawa or Okinawian martial arts.  Rather, I'm simply passing along information that I found interesting because I think that others on this board might too!  [top]
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: EricB on 05/01/2008 01:48
I wait for your post Michael, surprise me :)
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 05/01/2008 08:10
..I was looking around online for Keris info and found this article.  It’s about how a Keris was found buried inside a temple on Okinawa.  ....

It looks more like a Jawa keris, probably Majapahit. I can only see the overall shape of the keris, but it seems slight, which is more a characteristic of Majapahit keris than Malay keris. However, in Malaka, Majapahit keris were always valued highest so a gift from Malaka could be from Majapahit originally. It has been used as a keris sajen, though it doesn't look like one.

As for the relationship between Japanese arts and Jawanese arts, so far the agreement has been that karate has influenced some silat, rather than the other way around. However, no one has ever really researched this. There are so many sinilarities between Jawa and Japan and in Jawa there are several areas called Japan.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: f4iz on 05/01/2008 09:29
As for the relationship between Japanese arts and Jawanese arts, so far the agreement has been that karate has influenced some silat, rather than the other way around. However, no one has ever really researched this. There are so many sinilarities between Jawa and Japan and in Jawa there are several areas called Japan.
Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.
Hi..
Sorry to be off of the Keris topic..just wanted to comment a bit on the Karate Silat influence.
I think the Keris belonged to Selamet. During the Javanese naval expidition to Okinawa the Javanese Admiral arrived in Okinawa dgn Selamet -Sorry Indonesian Joke- ;D
Maybe thats true that Karate influenced some silat styles to an extent. Some of the punching technique and organizational structures have been incorporated in some Silat schools. Taekwondo kicking have also influence some silat parctitioners. Most traditional silat styles do not employ high kicks or the chambering of the leg when performing kicks. However, we see during demonstrations that some silat players uses high kicks and chambering the legs when kicking.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the West Karatekas, Taekwondoins, and other styles borrow many silat techniques the learned from Silat teachers either thru lessons, tapes, or seminars. These other styles sometimes use knife defense , joint lock, takedowns from Silat.
Also the Tjabang/Trisula used in Okinawan Karate is commonly usedin Indonesian Silat. Some believed that the Okinawans learned about the Tsai/Trisula from Indonesia.
The techniques using the trisula is probably different between Karate and Silat.
Regards,
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Russian Silat on 05/01/2008 10:10
Hello Mr. Bram,

Please excuse my tardiness in replying to your inquiries. I am currenty on holiday in the provinces, visiting friends and family, and have limited access to the internet.

Your knowledge of Indonesian culture will always be greater than mine, even if I study for a lifetime. That makes it a formidable weapon in any debate you care to have with a non-Indonesian. If you so choose, you could drag any debate into a quaigmire of irrelevant minutia...

I have to say that I think you are throwing good money after bad in this ongoing debate with PCP. You have alot of personal time and energy invested in trying to debunk us, for whatever reason, so it's hard to let go.

Much pride involved...

It is the nature of dogma that assumptions are made first, then the believer tries to move heavan and earth to make reality fit the pre-assumed dogma.

You decided some time ago that PCP must be a fraudulent art, and this assumption has consumed your life.

The plain fact is that in the long run, you will not succeed, because everything we say is consistent and true. We make no false or exaggerated claims, and that is OUR formidable weapon in any debate.

In spite of any seeming complications, the basic argument can be answered thus: we learned our keris fighting techniques from Pendekar Jafri. It is well documented that he believed there to be fighting applications for the keris. As the representative of IPSI, he was priviledged to travel about to learn many things from many masters. His claim was that the keris techniques come from the keratons.

You can choose not to believe him for whatever reason, but he is a critical influence on our art, so we trust and believe what he taught. He and Mas Agung.

It does not matter what ethnicity or place of birth these gentlemen have.

It does not matter if some knowledge was preserved in Malay or another tongue.

Minute variations in the design of various keris have very little impact on how they are deployed. If I were an expert on rifles or pistols I could similarly point out a bewildering variety of differences in the design of the stock or handle, but in the end, the principles of firing them are all the same.

I do believe that Pendekar Sanders together with Pendekar Ger Geisen are the foremost Western experts on this subject. Ger Geisen has travelled many times to Indonesia to study transcripts and translations. Pendekar Sanders has been studying this topic at least since 1980. Their credentials are sound, and our influences are sound.

Your continued insistence that Pendekar Jafri (a Silat luminary certainly unmatched by yourself, you must admit) was a trickster or con-artist is an argument that will fail to convince the majority of informed people.

Your continuing dialogue with us will have only one result- it will turn sahabatsilat.com into a large advertisement for Pukulan Cimande Pusaka, and continue to educate people about our credibility.

We have certainly answered all of your questions, and will continue to do so. No matter how many questions get resolved, new ones always arise. People would do well to consider how your line of questioning has continuously morphed in response to our consistent truth.

It may be time to find a new hobby, and stop throwing good money after bad. But it is totally your choice.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention that much of the keris knowledge that once existed in Java still lives on in Bali, from what I understand. Do you consider keris combat techniques from Balinese sources to be a legitimate part of Javanese culture?

Thanks for your good wishes, but I will unfortunately be unable to attend the upcoming seminar on keris fighting in Michigan, as I live on the other side of the world. There will be demonstrated combative applications well-researched by Pendekar Jafri and Mas Agung, so if you have the chance, I highly urge you to attend! It's always best to see first-hand what you are talking about.

Happy Holidays (Russian Christmas is on January 7),

Russian Silat
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Sabrang kidul on 05/01/2008 10:34
. There will be demonstrated combative applications well-researched by Pendekar Jafri and Mas Agung, so if you have the chance, I highly urge you to attend! It's always best to see first-hand what you are talking about.

Happy Holidays (Russian Christmas is on January 7),

Russian Silat

Hi,
By Mas Agung, do you mean the late Haji Masagung the well known Indonesian philantropist and founder of the Gunung Agung and Wali Songo bookshop?
If yes, than it is somewhat of a surprise for me as I never heard that he is a silat person....

Cheers
O'
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Russian Silat on 05/01/2008 10:51
Salamat Pak Krisno,

Thanks for your words. You are always a welcome addition to the conversation.

I also hope that we in the west can keep what we have been given, and not alter it.

I respect people's concerns about cultural appropriation. I have seen this happen alot in the "New Age" movement, where some people make alot of money by marketing "ancient wisdom" to be taught over a series of weekends. The 'wisdom' in question becomes a mere parody of what it originally was, for the sake of consumerism. This phenomenon does exist, and does need to be fought against.

Everyone here should know that what we have is from Indonesian teachers, and it is our goal to honor that which we have been given. I can only say once again that we do not seek to exploit or profit from these arts, that we love them very much, which has made arguments with other Silat players seem very hear-wrenching.

I agree with you that Silat is alive. But the moment we succeed in quieting voices which say something opposite to what we want to hear, we destroy diversity, and the art ceases to live.

If we faithfully represent the voices of our Indonesian teachers, then we will prevail in spite of all. Let us not seek to regulate, re-interpret, or control according to our personal dogma and view of the world.

Peace,

Russian Silat
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: EricB on 05/01/2008 19:50
How is it possible that we have to go back on differences between PCP and the rest of this community every time?

This is effecting a lot of topics/threads here, I'm starting to feel the need to clean-up this entire topic, and replace all off-subject contents into another "new" topic.

If you read this allover again I think we lost 2 pages with arguments that don't have anything to do with the subject of this thread.


Regards, Eric
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 05/01/2008 22:37
Agree, Kang Eric,

We should stick to the topic of keris in silat in this thread.

I would like to ask Malaysian silat players about keris fighting in Malaysian silat. I have seen Gayong guys playing impressive on youtube and I think that their keris fighting might be close to Majapahit keris fighting reported by Ma Huan. Would some Malaysian pesilat be so kind as to elaborate on their ilmu silat-keris to us all?

I think that keris is a fascinating subject.

Panglima Sudirman carried a keris with him into battle against the Dutch. Did he mean to stab the Dutch with it? No. He brought it with him, and carried it in front, to show his people that he was a pandhita (preist) rather than a satria (warrior) and was interested only in defending the country and not in power  politics.

Was he known to draw the keris?

Yes, some Wonosari people recall that once a Dutch spy plane had nearly caught the Panglima who was ill, in a litter on people's shoulders. The Panglima drew his keris, an old betok Buda, and a dark rain cloud descended from out of nowhere and covered the guerillas.

Is that keris fighting?

When Arya Penangsang, wounded and angered by Sutawijaya who had cut his belly open with his spear, using trickery by baiting Gagak Rimang with a mare, he pinned Sutawijaya to the ground and was about to stab him with his keris, forgeting that he had slung his intestines there, and cut them killing himself, something happened in the collective Javanese mind.

It is said that Sutawijaya was so impressed and decreed that all Javanese grooms at their wedding should wear a string of jasmine over their keris to remember how Arya Penangsang put his intestines over his.

Is there Jawa keris fighting knowledge?

No. Modern Jawanese maintain that keris fighting is taboo. The current idea about keris in silat is that Jawanese don't prance about with drawn keris. Keris fighting knowledge is now Bugis, Malaysian, and maybe Balinese, although in Bali I have only ever seen keris used to ngurek ... turned against the owner in trance. The people that do it claim that it is orgasmic.

Warm salams to all,
Ranggalana.






Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Russian Silat on 06/01/2008 05:08
Hello Mr. Bram,

Again I have to thank you for your informative post.

This orgasmic ngurek of which you speak- is this really an accurate description of the goals and aims of the Ilmu?

Also, do you consider that Balinese Keris knowledge is representative of older Javanese culture, or that Keris and kujang traditions there have no such connections?

Best Regards,

Russian Silat
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 06/01/2008 07:07
You are welcome, Mr. Walls...

I don't think ngurek has anything to do with ilmu. Seen the 'keris dance' in film or real life when the dancers go into trance and try and stab themselves with keris? This is called ngurek, they say it means that ancestor spirits have come and that they are being cleansed. These trances often happen in temple ceremonies and in the performance of real Calonarang theatre. 

There is a connection between Balinese keris and old Jawanese keris culture, but I believe the two have always been independent of each other. To understand Jawa keris you need to study Jawa keris and vice versa. Again, the Calonarang theatre will help explain the ancient connections between Jawa and Bali that per-date Majapahit.

Whilst kujang, as I said, I see a very long period when the blade was completely dormant. It is the most mysterious blade we have in Indonesia.

Warm regards,
Ranggalana
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: EricB on 06/01/2008 11:44
Mas Krisno I'm not censoring at all, I'm not a member of the Gestapo ;)
I just want to prevent that people are stepping on eachothers feet again.

This is indeed a public environment, that's why it must be inviting to outsiders to participate, if there is only argument and/or off-topic chit-chat people won't be triggered to participate. If that happens maybe we miss valuable input from people with knowledge.

My personal believe is also not in question, I try to be neutral in this matter, I'm also a member of this forum and I like it here a lot, but as moderator I'll have an effort to guide the discussion.

Don't take it personal Mas, I know and I noticed everyone in this thread added positive value, and that is good [top] my respect

Wassalam,

Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: James Z on 07/01/2008 00:31
Hello everyone,

Bram, you called me a liar before but I have to say I agree with you now, this talk should stay on message.  And that message being kris fighting in silat.  Am glad to see the moderators being even handed.  My hats off to Eric for being positive and keeping the talk on point.  I'm also glad to read Krisno's words again.  I think he's very evenhanded. I think he presents the other side in a way that is understood and accepted.  As an American with an interest in Silat and some experience in Indonesia, I'm glad to see Indonesians are being more accepting of Americans.  I've heard a few tales of Indonesians being jealous of foreigners who are good at silat.  I've heard a few more tales of Indonesians that downright hate foreigners who are better at silat then them.  When I first found this website, I assumed that's was the reason why so many Indonesians seemed to hate Sanders so much, he was better at Silat than them.  I see now that it's not that Indonesians hate him, but that they want to correct him.  Thanks to PCP for showing everyong  that they do know what they are talkinga bout.  I hope that now Americans and Indoensians can move forward in brotherhood and stop bickering.  the bickering gives a bad impression.  When I first found this website, i was so turned off by the bickering that I almost lost interest in learning silat.  Thank you to everyone for renewing my faith.

Jim
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 07/01/2008 06:57
James,

There is still some uncleared controversy in the way PCP play with the keris and tell people that they are teaching Jawanese techniques.

This is highly unlikely.

The words of alm. Jafri quoted by Sanders (Tikam Tunggal) point to a Malay source, not a Jawa source.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana

Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Angah on 31/08/2008 06:24
Dear Sahabats,

about using the keris in Silat, I'll only can tell about my experience as a member from SMKL9
Silat Melayu Keris Lok 9. I have met Guru Azlan Ghanie in 1999 in Kuala Lumpur and since that time I started with training SMKL9 till now. The Style we do is from palace (Pahang wariors).
and using the bugis keris. The difference between bugis and javanese is the peksi and the thikness of the blade. I've also learn a mix of Javanese alirans but we never trained with keris. In Malaysia the keris is more involved with silat then in Indonesia. In the Human Weapon you see some peaces of this beautyfull art. Using the keris is based on a lot of petua it's not just a weapon, you must feel to understand. I'm only can say experience the feeling and you know what I mean.

Hormat Saya
Angah
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: EricB on 31/08/2008 15:16
Hello Angah,

I'm happy to see you've become a member on this forum also
please share your experience with us,
I know the use of Keris in Malay silat systems is more common then in Indonesian silat systems.


well guys lets continue this discussion
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Ranggalana on 04/09/2008 06:13
The angle of the blade in relation to the handle, and the handle itself,  is also different between the Bugis / Malay keris and the Jawa keris. In the Bugis keris the angle is more so that the blade can be held in a pistol grip and slipped through an opponent's ribs.

Angah, please elaborate more on the feeling of the keris and it's use in silat.

Salam hangat,
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Anjang on 05/09/2008 18:26
Salam abang Angah! Good to see you on this forum also.  [top]

Hormat saya, Anjang
Title: Re: Keris in Silat
Post by: Angah on 29/09/2008 13:50
Terhormat Pesilats,

Well in Silat Melayu Keris Lok 9, there are a lot of petua's. If you know the petua's and your movements and the nafas melayu are in harmony you feel a lot of energy. The last visit in Malaysia we trained a lot Senanam Tua and Keris Lok 9 and the feeling was great the pesilat from Belanda had a lot of energy so the can't sleep before 5 p.m. and wake up 8 o clock in the morning everyday.The feeling is sensational, but I can write for 2 hours but if you never have the experience I cant explain the right feeling. Believe in the art of keris.

PS. He Adik Anjang yes I'm on the air ;-)