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Author Topic: Keris in Silat  (Read 24644 times)

EricB

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #15 on: 02/01/2008 23:43 »
Reason I say is because many Silat practitioners learn to utilize anything they find as a weapon. I mean if someone can use sarung, comb, kipas, or even shoes ............

Most people won't have to fight if they wair shoes  ??? 
just open them and the oponent runs for his life (think of Al Bundy)  [lucu] ;D

Russian Silat

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #16 on: 03/01/2008 06:35 »
Warm Wishes for all for a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year!

I'm glad that we can continue to discuss keris fighting in a gentlemanly way.

Mr. Bram indicated that "there are no Javanese Silat" use the keris, but then at the end of his post he said:

"There ARE people from whom you can learn the TRUE knowledge of Jawanese keris and its use in combat. There are those in Yogyakarta, and there are those in Surakarta, but also if you search probably in Banyumas, Madiun, and Cirebon too. Often these people are low profile pendekars but their combat keris knowledge is from forms and names recorded in BEKSAN, not in SILAT."

Mr. Bram, would you care to clarify?

Are there, or are there not places in Java where one might find the keris taught in a fighting application?

Indeed, William Sanders has always maintained that the keratons were the places where this knowledge is preserved. It seems to me that the argument has come full circle, and that you in fact agree with him now.

As for the limitations of the construction of the keris, Pendekar Sanders was taught that this was actually part of the construction. If one handles the weapon properly, there is no probem, but if one tries to use the keris without proper training, it will let one down at the 'moment of truth'.

"Beksan" is indeed considered more of a dance, but to people who do not understand Pencak Silat, it too seems to be merely a dance...

In Silat the dancing reflects the fighting, and the fighting, to my knowledge, never mimics a dance.

Pendekar Jafri travelled all over Java collecting keris combat techniques from various masters. Pendekar Jafri was not born in Java, but spent most of his life there. If some of the terminology is Malay, this in no way casts aspersions on the legitimacy of the knowledge.

If one reads our website first hand, nowhere there will it be found stated that keris fighting is part of any specific Javanese Silat style. It is part of PCP as taught and given by Pendekar Jafri, who is well-documented as an authority on Javanese Silat, and who actively publicized his knowledge of keris fighting.

Perhaps he learned from some of these places Mr. Bram mentioned?

Incidentally, for anyone who has been assiduously following this dialogue, it was first stated by Mr. Bram that the keris (along with the kucang) was purely talismanic, havng no combat appplications. Then he admitted that such applications once existed, but now are obsolete. Then he maintained they do exist, but only on other Islands. Now, he admits that such techniques may exist in several places on Java, but are rarely taught.

This is exactly what we have been saying all along.

It seems we are finally in agreement!

Happy New Year,

Russian Silat

Ranggalana

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #17 on: 03/01/2008 07:23 »
....Indeed, William Sanders has always maintained that the keratons were the places where this knowledge is preserved. ...

Pendekar Jafri travelled all over Java collecting keris combat techniques from various masters. Pendekar Jafri was not born in Java, but spent most of his life there. If some of the terminology is Malay, this in no way casts aspersions on the legitimacy of the knowledge. ......

.....

Incidentally, for anyone who has been assiduously following this dialogue, it was first stated by Mr. Bram that the keris (along with the kucang) was purely talismanic, havng no combat appplications. Then he admitted that such applications once existed, but now are obsolete. Then he maintained they do exist, but only on other Islands. Now, he admits that such techniques may exist in several places on Java, but are rarely taught.

This is exactly what we have been saying all along.

It seems we are finally in agreement!

Happy New Year,

Russian Silat


Mr Walls, I don't think we agree at all and here is why:

1. "Tikam Tunggal" refers to a Malay origin. I don't believe Jafri alm. studied keris fighting in Jawa because there is none. (BTW, H Masagung the keris colector mentioned by Sanders is ethnic Chineses, btw, not a keris expert, just a keris lover).

2. I don't believe that Sanders has relationships with any Jawa kraton. Who and where and when did this contact take place? I can validate these claims easily.

3. Keris and Kujang NOW are not physical weapons. There was a time when the kujang was an agricultural tool and the keris was a side-arm, but after Amangkurat sold the Jawa Armada, the keris became more sinengker. BTW, knowledge of Jawa ship building is hidden in the ladrang form of the wrangka.

4. You can look for remnants of the knowledge of keris fighting in beksan (dance). Dance is considered a kraton art but pencak silat is not. But again it is very hard to believe that Sanders got his knowledge from the Kraton. Which Kraton? Who taught Sanders?   

So what I  think is the truth is this: Alm Jafri learned the keris either from Malay silat, or from reverse engineering and taught it to Sanders, who learned it without knowing the definite origin. Alm Jafri maybe was not careful to show the differences of Malay, Bugis, Bali, Sumatra, and Jawa keris and the way that they are employed. I can't see him holding the keris in the right Jawa way in any photo!

Now Sanders is teaching Indonesian keris fighting. This reflects his limited knowledge in the matter. There is no such thing as an Indonesian keris... you must chose, Jawa, Sumatra, Malay, Lombok, Bali, Bugis and so on... the keris are different, have a different status, have different angled handles and so on.

On a personal note, I have experienced your stories about me getting beaten in a sparring with a young PCP boy and I know that story is not true. I believe that alot of your claims on keris, ilmu kebatinan, Untung Surapati and so on, are all formed  by your unique definition of the truth which is very personal and imaginative.

Good luck with your Indonesian keris fighting seminar. I hope that you have a good laugh.

Salam hangat,
Bram


PS: Kang Eric, there are good Jawa keris that would make a sturdy weapon.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

f4iz

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #18 on: 03/01/2008 08:17 »
Most people won't have to fight if they wair shoes  ??? 
just open them and the oponent runs for his life (think of Al Bundy)  [lucu] ;D
Salam Kang Eric,
Is this considered ilmu Halus...the oponent would smell before he feels the feet kick him  ;D

optimus prime

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #19 on: 04/01/2008 02:56 »
 

Quote from: Bram
On a personal note, I have experienced your stories about me getting beaten in a sparring with a young PCP boy and I know that story is not true. I believe that alot of your claims on keris, ilmu kebatinan, Untung Surapati and so on, are all formedĀ  by your unique definition of the truth which is very personal and imaginative.

Good luck with your Indonesian keris fighting seminar. I hope that you have a good laugh.

Salam hangat,
Bram
Hello Bram

I going straight to the point Bram

1) I think you have split personalites because on the malay forum you are very respectful to us at PCP all meek and trying to gain influence, while at the same time you still here ranting. In my view its disgusting how you still trying to sprew malice.

2) You are also a liar! For saying the above didnt happen the young guy who landed on your backside was a Mr Gavin Byrne, you know this fine well, beacause in the past you have talk about this, at one time saying, you had no silat training (which we now know thats a lie) you just bad at it (check bram out at the event in London its on another thread on this forum) this young lad, came to you in good faith and you tried it on, and he landed on your backside, in front of your indonesian friends, who laugh. How dare you say this didnt happen, if you prepared to make up lies over something so simple, what else are you prepared to make lies up about???? like maybe Pendekar mama doesnt exist, when you had his address all the time. Shame on you Bram. Mr Gavin Byrne's would like to meet you, to discuss this

Maybe when you return to London, we can have a rematch if you up for it, it may refresh your memory as your memory is at time woeful. Stop telling lies and maybe one day you might get some respect :-[

.

[quote repaired by moderator]
« Last Edit: 04/01/2008 04:01 by EricB »

EricB

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #20 on: 04/01/2008 04:04 »
Please guys,

take this discussion to another place, this wil be another topic way of subject.
I urge you to go back on-topic, otherwise I delete the whole content of this argument between the two of you [polisi]

thnx in advance

mantis

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #21 on: 04/01/2008 04:16 »
Bram , wow , you realy must run for some political office if you have not allready !!! The way you get caught up in things you have listed as "the way it is ", and then twist and turn and actualy sound like you were right all the while  when proved wrong is truly a political advantage for you . Russian Silat , for those who dont want to follow all the threads back , is one hundred percent smack on  in his last post . Bram said  their was no Keris fighting in Java , Sanders said the knowledge was still to be found their if you new were to look . Then Bram said it IS actualy  their if you know where to look  ???     Then when caught up on this Bram says who in the Kraton did Sanders learn from, as if anyone ever said that  ? I have read that site and followed these posts and I have NEVER seen Sanders say he learned Silat from anyone in any kraton , if I am wrong I am sorry , just show me  where he says that ? It is clear to me he says Jafri was able to find these same people who Bram all of a sudden remembered have some  old knowledge  of Keris fighting and that is who he learned it from . Talking about where Jafri was born  ???    Or making up a story about Sanders learning from the Kraton, then calling him on somthing he never said ,  BOY your killing me hahahahahahaha. Maybe you should be a comedian instead of a politician as I cant see anyone taking your story  twisting "facts " as even remotly serious. I think there will be a lot of laughing at that keris seminar , about you!!!!! It is SO plain all you want to do is cause row after row after row , hey when you cant find a problem just make up the facts and then attack . You are good for a good laugh though hahahahahahahahaha.

Ranggalana

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #22 on: 04/01/2008 06:51 »
Appart from the insults, do you guys have ANY PROOF AT ALL that keris fighting is traditionally taught in Jawanese silat anywhere?

I point out a mistake: Sanders advertises a seminar on Indonesian keris fighting, while there is really no such thing as Indonesian keris, it is Jawa, Bali, Madura or what have you, but Indonesia is a NEW entity and not really asosciated with keris.

How can you say words like TIKAM TUNGGAL (which are Malay) are instruction on Jawa keris? As you say, Jafri was from Kalimantan (was he a Banjar Malay, perhaps?) and grew up in Riau (heartland of Malayness) so there is a big possibility that he taught Sanders Malay keris fighting not Jawa keris fighting. It is NOT possible that he taught Sanders Jawa keris fighting because :

            - Jawa keris fighting doesn't exist anymore.
            - Jafri holds the keris contrary to the Jawa way of holding a keris in combat.

It is as simple as that.

The rest is plain logic: if you publicly lie about me on the internet you could easily lie about other things as well.

Sometimes you are just mistaken and misguided, like when you think that 'animal possesion' is ilmu, when it is really just 'dolanan cah angon' being packaged and sold as ilmu to the gullible. 

Back to Indonesian keris fighting, I think that the proof should come from your teacher who says that there is such a thing and asks people to pay to learn it from him. Why? Because it doesn't make sense that someone is teaching Indonesian keris fighting, when Indonesian keris are, upon examination, either Jawa, Bali, Madura or what have you, but NOT Indonesian.

Please don't take this discussion as slander and please lay off the insults!


Salam hangat,
Ranggalana
« Last Edit: 04/01/2008 07:27 by Ranggalana »
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

mantis

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #23 on: 04/01/2008 08:30 »
no problem  you first .  Your posts are full of insults . As for facts your contention there is no such thing as an Indonesian keris is  realy silly .( your killing me again hahahahaha) That is like saying there is no such thing as Indonesian Pencak Silat . Or Their is no such thing as Chinese Kung fu or Japanese Karate . This is what i mean by making me laugh  :D  Of course EVERYONE knows their are variations and differances in the areas they come from . Just as their is Silat from, Java or Bali etc ,but all under the one label now of Indonesia  for sake of generality , just like in the past at one time it was all the Majapahit empire etc etc . These are fine points that only  appear to make you have a point , when in fact you have NONE  in substance . Maybe to some one who knows nothing it sounds impressive . Take the act on the road please .  As for the keris lets not hoodwink the people who dont know that much and may think, My God that Bali Keris must be a world apart from a Java Keris . One must need a completly different technology to use one than the other . hahahahahaha Again I am laughing . If  you were to remove the handles from a Bali Keris ( not all of them by  the way are large , but some are ) and the wranka and place them on a table for the average person to see they would all look the same . Yes their are small differances in the Ganja , etc but basicaly you have a body of the blade , straight or with luk,  the ganja which is mostly seperate but not allways and the peksi that the handle goes on . The construction and baisc idea are the same . The  handles  are all mostly put on with a wrapping arround the Peksi with cloth , so they are held on by pressure . The handles mostly made of wood can also be metal or ivory or vegetable ivory etc . Yes in certain blades the handle position puts the blade at a slightly different angle BUT THEY ALL MUST CONTACT THE TARGET THE SAME WAY AS PENDAKR SANDERS EXPLAINS OR THEY WILL FAIL AND THIS IS TRUE .The grips are NOT all that different either , Usualy  a pincher type grip is used as explaiined in Pendekar Sanders book and backed up by Pendekar Giesens excellent Keris book which agrees one hundred percent with Sanders book.  Your contention that there is the giant differance is like saying , hey you can drive a Mercedes BUT that is a BMW ohhhhhh you cant drive that one , you must learn a new technology  :w You attempt to judge  an entire mans art and what he knew about the keris from a short video of him moving a Keris ,(Jafri) which you can  not . You cant even tell what type that is as it can not  seen that well . Jafri was a revered Master and an expert who traveled  all ofer JAVA , get that JAVA,  I can say it again if you like because you love to keep saying where he was born ignoring all the posts that tell you he SPENT THE MAJORITY OF HIS ADULT LIFE IN JAVA STUDYING JAVANESE ARTS INCLUDING THE KERIS. Again you are sticking to a point that has no point as if where he was born makes one iota of a differance as to where he wound up and who he got information from . What Sanders is doing is teaching a lost art then , if no one still practices it as a whole but he says that  clearly . Whichis great !!!! By the way Bakti Negara of Bali teaches Keris fighting , they even now have a video out on it .  Bakti Negara came to Bali from the majapahit empire when it fell to Islam. According to the Bakti guys I have talked to they say their art is the closest to the old  Java Silat at that time and here they are using the Keris and guese what it looks very much like what Pendekar Sanders teaches from the short clips I have seen on that video  [top] . Get over it Bram we are teaching real keris fighting , we know the differances in the grips and the pictures on Pendekar Sanders web site are just poses  with out content of fighting, look at his book if you want to see more .  But that is yet another way for you to APPEAR to have a point .  By the way since their is not Keris fighting in Java their would have been no one to show you the correct way to hold the Java Keris in combat so realy have no idea of how it is held , if some one did show you that ooops IT DOES EXIST  ::)

Ranggalana

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #24 on: 04/01/2008 10:34 »
Mantis,

You would communicate much better if you used paragraphs in your writting. Also if you had a real name, it would be easier to relate to you. Again I ask for PROOF that keris fighting is taught in traditional silat... not hearsay from a dead man or a "Pendekar".

Saying that, for me, it is great and fine if you think that Sanders is the holder of a lost Jawa art, namely keris fighting.  I think (and many more knowledgable people in Jawa) think that you are wrong.

Great and fine if you think that alm. Jafri studied Jawa keris fighting in his travels all over Jawa, I think that he did not because no traditional silat teacher / school here taught it!

Fine also if you think there are only small differences between keris Jawa and, keris Bali, or keris Bugis. This shows your level of understanding.

I suspect that you are taking the word of your teachers who I know can't speak or read Indonesian, let alone Jawanese or Sundanese. Yet they pose as  authorities on keris and you guys believe them.

My part to state the truth in keris in relation to Jawa, Indonesia and silat is complete. I will stop posting about keris in silat here.

But your statement that Bhakti Negara originated from Majapahit is wrong. Go study the history of Bhakti Negara and don't post nonsense.

Salam hangat,

Bram



batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

mantis

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #25 on: 04/01/2008 11:24 »
Ok, but I said if you take those keris apart and put them on a table the average person would not see much differance , they are all constructed the same way . Your meaning  that their is much more  refelcts things like  the pamor, dapur  and intent to which they were made .  The handles and religous influence and materials used to make them  Yes that is quite different. It has NO bearing on how they are handled if you are talking about using them in combat  as  to how they can work and how they can not work . I am well aware of the differences in the keris having kept , read , studied and used them  for many many years .You are not talking to a beginner in the keris , nor am i only relying on what my teacher or one other teacher told me . Please dont make assumptions like that . The way the Balanise finish their blades is quite different than the finish by a Javanese empu , one feeling   much more rough than the other , as well as many diiferances in the greneng , tingal etc , These are fine points for study but , again do not have much bearing on how the blade is used in combat , or the weak parts and strong parts of the weapon that one must know to use it effectivly .     You know the many names attached to the small portions can also go  on a long time with no bearing on pure physical attributes of the blade ,  bawang, janur , sigikan etc etc etc .  Now the finale shape of the ganja , the Kanyut for example does  matter . And we are aware of that use .You are still not getting it that Jafri was on an expedition to find facts here and their from various sources and not to find a complete system from one person , or school . Just as you indicated those people could be found , he found them  also  and put together that info ,not all from one person . We have what was left of what he found and dont attribute it to any one school.  It is that simple  . Please dont denigrate his great memory because he is dead , we honor him and what he left us , its that simple . Now for the B. N. I did not make that up, nor did Sanders tell me  but I  was told that very story by every B.N player I met on my visits to Bali . Bram it is very common knowledge that many of the great empus fled to Bali as well  at that time . Do you think none of them had knowledge of how to use a keris ?  Are they correct in that their art contains a lot of the old Javanese silat , I dont know I was not their , but it was what they told me and this from a few  masters of that art  as well so I cant say they are wrong and I dont think you can either . I can say they have Keris fighting techniqes they attribute to that time period and that look very similar to what we do in many respects . By the way I saw you made a post that the secret of ship builders was in the Ladring Katipaten. used to think this also as it looks that way , but I was corrected by a Javanese Pande that it was actualy a jungle orchid , although commonly  thought of as a boat . im not sure but that is what he said. All may not be what it appears on the surface. 

Ranggalana

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #26 on: 04/01/2008 11:55 »
Ok, but I said if you take those keris apart and put them on a table the average person would not see much differance , they are all constructed the same way .

Jawa keris from different tangguh have different characteristics too. For example, keris luk tangguh Pengging has luk rengkol, while tangguh Majapahit has luk sedheng. While keris luk tangguh kabudan .... don't exist hehehe.

But generally speaking, a Bugis keris would be most often a keris lurus with a mucuk rebung shape, rather thick and sturdy designed to be used in fighting. The handle would be fixed so that in a pistol grip the blade would lay paralel to the ground. And it would be most often post 1400.

Malay keris and Sumatran keris are very much like Bugis keris in construction, in that they are sturdy and strong. The handles are also put on in a similar way. Bali keris are alot larger than Jawa keris or Bugis keris. And as you say, they are polished, leaving a smooth blade.

Bakti Negara began by people like Gusti Ngurah Rai during Independence Revolution but was formalized in 1950's ... It is based on Sundanese silats, mainly Cimande, Cikaret, and Cikalong. Bali, like Jawa, doesn't have indigenous silat. The silat in Jawa and Bali is relatively new but the keris is relatively ancient.

I am not disrespecting alm. Jafri when I say it is highly unlikely that he learned to fight with a Jawa keris from a Jawa silat teacher. If he had, he would not use Malay terms for the moves of keris combat, would he? In fact, if he was Jawanese, he would have treated the keris somewhat differently, I am sure.

Did Sanders and Geissen ever learn to speak Indonesian and / or Jawanese which would be needed to pose as an expert on Jawa keris, don't you think? Fact is, these gentlemen don't speak Indonesian or Jawanese and might be good pesilat but are misleading in their teachings about Jawa keris.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.

 
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

EricB

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #27 on: 04/01/2008 12:54 »
OK guys,

I see you are back on-topic again  [top]
but please keep those other things out, please stay on the subject, at least try to ;)


@ Mr. Mantis can you tell us something about yourself, maybe make a post in the welcome section >> click here <<
BTW I already know, but for our members its also nice to know who they are debating with  8)

Ranggalana

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #28 on: 04/01/2008 13:27 »
.. Bram it is very common knowledge that many of the great empus fled to Bali as well  at that time . Do you think none of them had knowledge of how to use a keris ?...

Actually, Mantis,

All the great keris Mpu from Majapahit remained in Jawa and did not join the exodus to Bali. They continued to serve in Madura, Tuban, Demak, Pajang and Mataram untill now. So you have the late Mpu Djeno, a direct descendant from Mpu Supa Mandragi / Pangeran Sedayu.

The same with the Padjadjaran Mpu, they did not stay in Sundaland after the fall of their kingdom, rather they emigrated east and worked in Majapahit, Tuban, Demak, pajang and then Mataram as well. So you have Mpu Sombro in Tuban and Mpu Umyang in Madiun.

Bali had its own different type of keris since the Majapahit era.

Salam hangat

Ranggalana.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

mantis

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #29 on: 04/01/2008 14:07 »
I am a student of Pendekar Sanders and use the computer at our training place where he has a computer so Eric yes it has his address . Now back to the keris .The luk you speak of are more important to the tua of the blade than to combat applications . Maylay, Bugis , Sumatran Keris do have heavy thick blades as a rule and while those bird shaped type handles may be fixed and put the blade at a different angle relative  to the handle , it is in the end still a small wooden , ivory etc handle with a metal Peksi stuck in it that will explode if the keris is used incorrectly . Bali Keris can be small and large , Peksi handle connection still applies . Wrankas are all strong in some areas weak in many others.  asked and was told those terms listed on Pendekar Sanders site did not even come from Jafri, nor am aware he said they did ? Those terms I have seen listed in various texts on the keris and show anyway a culture who was versed in the application of combat principles to the Keris . Better to not jump to conclusions , then from that speculation state the end result as a fact . The language criteria is not accurate , many great keris vollumes have been translated in Dutch , French , English ett some  even translated from sanskrit on palm leaves . Studying these for those who dont kneo the language can give a great amount of knowledge on history and terminology ,tua , Dapur etc. one learns the language as it relates to the blade .  But to learn the fighting applications it seems one now needs a good teacher and then those moves are the moves wether you speak Indonesian or  Martian. That said Pendeakr sanders isnsits we  study the parts of the keris and the terminology as best we can to imerse ourselves in the nature of the blade and to honor the empus and Pande who made them .

 

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