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Author Topic: Keris in Silat  (Read 24639 times)

mantis

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #30 on: 04/01/2008 14:16 »
sorry I forgot to add the story about the  many Javanese comming to Bali. it  is common knowledge their , indeed their are pockets of Javanese that date their ancestory back to the Majapahit and it is also commonly told in Bali that many empu fled there.  Even on the tours I went on in certain cultural centers   that information was spoken about . I was told the Bali Keris is the closest thing one can see to a Majapahit Keris now , yes it changed a bit over time . Again it is their story not mine . Also the B.N. Players I spoke to were  convinced that the Javanses portions of their art came from that time period also . Of course  you can list things that you or others say and believe  but if you go to Bali they have another side and a written book by a Bali Keris . . Personaly   I am convinced many Javanese from the Majapahit fled to Bali as supported in the book listed below . as for B.N I have no idea only that they believe it is so . I will also add that you should obtain the book Keris Bali by I.B. Dibia ,written in Indonesian , english and french . Here it lists the exodus from Java to Bali . It even lists an empu that came from east Java  to Bali in the middle of the third century . The info is way to long to type here . The entire back of the book is pamor from the lontars and sanskrit. Much information is here as to the names of the Keris that came here from Majapahit , the people etc even theories  why the blades are a bit different . I.B. Dibea was the formost authority on the Bali Keris (deceased )
« Last Edit: 04/01/2008 14:54 by mantis »

Ranggalana

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #31 on: 04/01/2008 14:33 »
....Now back to the keris .The luk you speak of are more important to the tua of the blade than to combat applications . .... asked and was told those terms listed on Pendekar Sanders site did not even come from Jafri, nor am aware he said they did ? Those terms I have seen listed in various texts on the keris and show anyway a culture who was versed in the application of combat principles to the Keris . Better to not jump to conclusions , then from that speculation state the end result as a fact . The language criteria is not accurate , many great keris vollumes have been translated in Dutch , French , English ett some  even translated from sanskrit on palm leaves . Studying these for those who dont kneo the language can give a great amount of knowledge on history and terminology ,tua , Dapur etc. one learns the language as it relates to the blade .  But to learn the fighting applications it seems one now needs a good teacher and then those moves are the moves wether you speak Indonesian or  Martian. That said Pendeakr sanders isnsits we  study the parts of the keris and the terminology as best we can to imerse ourselves in the nature of the blade and to honor the empus and Pande who made them .


Mantis, below; your teacher's words from his site:

But here in Print from an old magazine from the 1980's is an article On Pencak Silat and here in actual photos is Pendekar Jafri CHOOSING to demonstrate one of the many Keris fighting moves he showed me in Keris to Keris encounter under a title, The Weapons of Pencak Silat. Note it does not say the Talismans of Pencak Silat or the Icons it says WEAPONS. This is only to make clear he DID openly show how to fight with the keris. He showed me all he had discovered in that realm and I searched for even more. I teach this information and have a video tape and book on the subject.
In those times even the various special thrusts with the Keris had names, like Tikam Tunggal, a solitary or one lethal strike used to end the fight. Special names were not given to thrusts in fights from bladed weapons not used in that way. Even someone with minimal education could figure that out.


Tikam Tunggal is Malay, my friend.

And the luk relates to the tuah and has no relevance in combat applications? This is something new to me and I would like to hear you elaborate more on this. You must be joking now, right?

About language: are you saying that in your world people like Geissen and Sanders don't need Indonesian or Jawanese to be knowledgable on keris?

And if there are any books in English, Dutch or French on keris translated from Sanskrit on palm leaves, please list them. I believe that you are making this statement up without substance and you can't back up these claims.

There are a few good books on keris, and those good ones have several fatal mistakes in their explanations. To find these out, one needs intimate knowledge of Jawanese, which neither Gerr Geissen or Sanders have.

And about Bakti Negara, why not try wikipedia before you make sweeping statements?

Keris Majapahit are definitely different to keris Bali. Of course there are Bali families that trace their ancestry to Majapahit - the same with Jawa families my friend.

Bali was always Bali and Jawa was always Jawa even though often governed by the same King. Keris Bali and keris Jawa have always been different, namely in the size and the treatment of the blade surface, but also in the treatment of the keris itself. The Mpu keris from Majapahit DID NOT move to Bali when Islam came, their lineages are still here in Jawa. Other religious scholars did leave Jawa, but not the Mpu keris.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana

PS. Mantis, I have studied ilmu kebatinan in Bali and have a Guru there too. Do you think that you should be lecturing here on this Indonesian forum about Bali when your information comes from your visits to 'certain cultural centers'?
« Last Edit: 04/01/2008 14:39 by Ranggalana »
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

mantis

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #32 on: 04/01/2008 15:14 »
Here you go again , you list a quote from Pendekar Sanders as though it is a quote from Pendekar jafri :-\ I am TELLING you I asked Pendekar Sanders and I explained why he listed those words . The picture is of Jafri , the words are from Sanders, not Jafri .  I just listed a book with translations from the lontar . YOU must be kidding do you think a luk three  blade is combatively that much different than a luk five blade then Wait you dont know about java Keris fighting so you are guesing then , huh  :w :Much of the Tua of the blade is linked to the amount of luk, forninstance a five luk is good for healing , a straight blade finds its own way etc etc etc .  Yes their is a differance in a straight blade and one with luk but not between a three wave and a five etc for combat . Oh yea ALL the many books translated have secret flaws in them . Im not buying it . 

 Aslo please dont be such an ASS. MAYBE I NEED TO TALK REAAALLLL SLOOOOOWWWWW FOOOORRRRR YOOOOOOUU.

* Moderated *- comments like this is making the gap bigger, please reconsider when you reply -

Cmon you can read correct ? I am not making any statments on my own and I dont need a web page to convince  me I was halucinating when more than one Master of BN told me what I said , go to Bali and tell them to look up their art as they are wrong. If they were then they did not knwo their own art , BUT THAT IS WHAT THEY BELIEVED WHEN THEY TOLD IT TO ME , DO YOU GET THAT ???  AGAIN you act as though it is MY sweeping stament  to make a point that was never said , STOP IT !!!!!  Pendekar  Sanders also has an ilmu teacher in Bali shown in his books and he relayed the same info . Now I mentioned those cultural centers to make it clear it is common knowlege to EVERYONE  their as to what I said , you dont need secret info to hear that story , that was the reason it was given .Again the book I mentioned written  in part from the lontars and by an expert  that does not agree with all of your contentions . Again I was shown in Bali,  areas where today their are still Javanese that came their to escape and brought their trades , some Pande included .. The book I mentioned however says it begain in the third century when the first Empu came to Bali from Java . Dont get so stirred up if a few empu and Pande went to Bali . Let it go ,you will still survive . Take a deep breath .

* moderated by Eric B to make a point *
« Last Edit: 04/01/2008 21:51 by EricB »

pekir

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #33 on: 04/01/2008 21:08 »
Here you go again  ...  Aslo please dont be such an ASS. MAYBE I NEED TO TALK REAAALLLL SLOOOOOWWWWW FOOOORRRRR YOOOOOOUU .

To my mind ... this is precisely the language that creates conflict and derails mature debate. Surely a negation does not require language that is blatantly insulting?

... Let it go ,you will still survive . Take a deep breath .

Good advice. Maybe EVERYONE should heed it?

Salam,
Krisno Pryosusilo

Hi Mas Krisno,

Been a while, Happy New Year to you (and all the other members of course)

Maybe if we all 'Take a deep breath' we can actually work on our tenaga dalam instead of acting up all the time and wasting our precious breath  :)

mantis

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #34 on: 04/01/2008 22:03 »
Yes , it would appear that wasting breath is not a good idea . I am  sorry I placed those words the way I did BUT, when you make a comment about something you were told and some one keeps acting like those are your words over and over , it would apear that the person doing that is the one realy wanting to raise the temperature .  It was designed to draw attention to the fact I was repeating imformation direclty from the qaulified  sources listed, right or wrong but the messenger kept being shot . I will not post on this  issue again as the facts I have stated stand as they are . Some one can keep comming back to it but that does not change it. We will have to agree to disagree . Once again if you realy want to be positive ,then spend as much time on positive posts as negative ones ,for instance michael Lee made a good post to talk of training  inanother thread and not ONE  single reply  in a week ? Maybe if people here would have just talked about the techniques they say dont exist  in the Keris, everyone could have learned somthing and shared the knowledge  I notice that it seems to be more fun for some to just ridicule than say , well lets share those techniques and see where it leads ?? I can't devote more energy on this endles fight  , think also about the tone of  the replies as well as the characters in the spelling  of my words . I realy would have much rather discused the way the Keris is used than to keep harping on who what where and why and that it is not . Negativity allways leads to this conclusion.  I  must get to my chores .

EricB

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #35 on: 04/01/2008 22:04 »
Thanx for your positive point of view to Krisno and Pekir  [top]
nothing to add here.

to Mr. Mantis:

I am a student of Pendekar Sanders and use the computer at our training place where he has a computer so Eric yes it has his address .

How do I know who I'm talking to, it could wel be William Sanders himself, or you (who we still not know who you are) or even to another student.

Maybe it is good to sign your posts to be sure who we are replying to, either if it is the Pendekar or his student.



@ Mas Bram, I received your report, he calls you an ASS, true I did read it.
maybe it is some kind of counter reaction ;) I'm not happy with that, but we have to introspect and find the "Why"


To all:
action =/ reaction =/ action and so on ............... (some sort of circle)
we realy must try to break this circle and stick to the subject in a topic, I'm sure that is the best for us all.


kind regards Eric




Michael Lee

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #36 on: 04/01/2008 23:35 »
Wow!  Interesting dialogue!  Lots of good stuff to absorb.  I actually have something to say about this discussion, but I'm in the office right now and can't devote the necessary time to put into writing my thoughts.  Hopefully I'll find the time this weekend.

However!  I do have something I want to add that I think some of the forum members might find interesting..... 

I was looking around online for Keris info and found this article.  It’s about how a Keris was found buried inside a temple on Okinawa.  Apparently, prior to Okinawa becoming part of Japan in 1879, the Kingdom of Ryukyus had ties to either Malacca or Java.  I recall Jerry Jacobs telling me that he saw an old film clip of Karate guys moving around in a manner that was similar to Silat.  I’m guessing this is somehow all related.

http://hulubalang-lagenda.tripod.com/keris.html

Enjoy!
Michael

P.S. Just to head off any possible misunderstanding.... This post is not saying that PCP is in any way connected with Okinawa or Okinawian martial arts.  Rather, I'm simply passing along information that I found interesting because I think that others on this board might too!  [top]
« Last Edit: 04/01/2008 23:39 by Michael Lee »

EricB

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #37 on: 05/01/2008 01:48 »
I wait for your post Michael, surprise me :)

Ranggalana

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #38 on: 05/01/2008 08:10 »
..I was looking around online for Keris info and found this article.  It’s about how a Keris was found buried inside a temple on Okinawa.  ....

It looks more like a Jawa keris, probably Majapahit. I can only see the overall shape of the keris, but it seems slight, which is more a characteristic of Majapahit keris than Malay keris. However, in Malaka, Majapahit keris were always valued highest so a gift from Malaka could be from Majapahit originally. It has been used as a keris sajen, though it doesn't look like one.

As for the relationship between Japanese arts and Jawanese arts, so far the agreement has been that karate has influenced some silat, rather than the other way around. However, no one has ever really researched this. There are so many sinilarities between Jawa and Japan and in Jawa there are several areas called Japan.

Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.
batu kali jadi candi, duka jadi puisi, jagal jadi wali

f4iz

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #39 on: 05/01/2008 09:29 »
As for the relationship between Japanese arts and Jawanese arts, so far the agreement has been that karate has influenced some silat, rather than the other way around. However, no one has ever really researched this. There are so many sinilarities between Jawa and Japan and in Jawa there are several areas called Japan.
Salam hangat,
Ranggalana.
Hi..
Sorry to be off of the Keris topic..just wanted to comment a bit on the Karate Silat influence.
I think the Keris belonged to Selamet. During the Javanese naval expidition to Okinawa the Javanese Admiral arrived in Okinawa dgn Selamet -Sorry Indonesian Joke- ;D
Maybe thats true that Karate influenced some silat styles to an extent. Some of the punching technique and organizational structures have been incorporated in some Silat schools. Taekwondo kicking have also influence some silat parctitioners. Most traditional silat styles do not employ high kicks or the chambering of the leg when performing kicks. However, we see during demonstrations that some silat players uses high kicks and chambering the legs when kicking.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the West Karatekas, Taekwondoins, and other styles borrow many silat techniques the learned from Silat teachers either thru lessons, tapes, or seminars. These other styles sometimes use knife defense , joint lock, takedowns from Silat.
Also the Tjabang/Trisula used in Okinawan Karate is commonly usedin Indonesian Silat. Some believed that the Okinawans learned about the Tsai/Trisula from Indonesia.
The techniques using the trisula is probably different between Karate and Silat.
Regards,

Russian Silat

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #40 on: 05/01/2008 10:10 »
Hello Mr. Bram,

Please excuse my tardiness in replying to your inquiries. I am currenty on holiday in the provinces, visiting friends and family, and have limited access to the internet.

Your knowledge of Indonesian culture will always be greater than mine, even if I study for a lifetime. That makes it a formidable weapon in any debate you care to have with a non-Indonesian. If you so choose, you could drag any debate into a quaigmire of irrelevant minutia...

I have to say that I think you are throwing good money after bad in this ongoing debate with PCP. You have alot of personal time and energy invested in trying to debunk us, for whatever reason, so it's hard to let go.

Much pride involved...

It is the nature of dogma that assumptions are made first, then the believer tries to move heavan and earth to make reality fit the pre-assumed dogma.

You decided some time ago that PCP must be a fraudulent art, and this assumption has consumed your life.

The plain fact is that in the long run, you will not succeed, because everything we say is consistent and true. We make no false or exaggerated claims, and that is OUR formidable weapon in any debate.

In spite of any seeming complications, the basic argument can be answered thus: we learned our keris fighting techniques from Pendekar Jafri. It is well documented that he believed there to be fighting applications for the keris. As the representative of IPSI, he was priviledged to travel about to learn many things from many masters. His claim was that the keris techniques come from the keratons.

You can choose not to believe him for whatever reason, but he is a critical influence on our art, so we trust and believe what he taught. He and Mas Agung.

It does not matter what ethnicity or place of birth these gentlemen have.

It does not matter if some knowledge was preserved in Malay or another tongue.

Minute variations in the design of various keris have very little impact on how they are deployed. If I were an expert on rifles or pistols I could similarly point out a bewildering variety of differences in the design of the stock or handle, but in the end, the principles of firing them are all the same.

I do believe that Pendekar Sanders together with Pendekar Ger Geisen are the foremost Western experts on this subject. Ger Geisen has travelled many times to Indonesia to study transcripts and translations. Pendekar Sanders has been studying this topic at least since 1980. Their credentials are sound, and our influences are sound.

Your continued insistence that Pendekar Jafri (a Silat luminary certainly unmatched by yourself, you must admit) was a trickster or con-artist is an argument that will fail to convince the majority of informed people.

Your continuing dialogue with us will have only one result- it will turn sahabatsilat.com into a large advertisement for Pukulan Cimande Pusaka, and continue to educate people about our credibility.

We have certainly answered all of your questions, and will continue to do so. No matter how many questions get resolved, new ones always arise. People would do well to consider how your line of questioning has continuously morphed in response to our consistent truth.

It may be time to find a new hobby, and stop throwing good money after bad. But it is totally your choice.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention that much of the keris knowledge that once existed in Java still lives on in Bali, from what I understand. Do you consider keris combat techniques from Balinese sources to be a legitimate part of Javanese culture?

Thanks for your good wishes, but I will unfortunately be unable to attend the upcoming seminar on keris fighting in Michigan, as I live on the other side of the world. There will be demonstrated combative applications well-researched by Pendekar Jafri and Mas Agung, so if you have the chance, I highly urge you to attend! It's always best to see first-hand what you are talking about.

Happy Holidays (Russian Christmas is on January 7),

Russian Silat

Sabrang kidul

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #41 on: 05/01/2008 10:34 »
. There will be demonstrated combative applications well-researched by Pendekar Jafri and Mas Agung, so if you have the chance, I highly urge you to attend! It's always best to see first-hand what you are talking about.

Happy Holidays (Russian Christmas is on January 7),

Russian Silat

Hi,
By Mas Agung, do you mean the late Haji Masagung the well known Indonesian philantropist and founder of the Gunung Agung and Wali Songo bookshop?
If yes, than it is somewhat of a surprise for me as I never heard that he is a silat person....

Cheers
O'

Russian Silat

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #42 on: 05/01/2008 10:51 »
Salamat Pak Krisno,

Thanks for your words. You are always a welcome addition to the conversation.

I also hope that we in the west can keep what we have been given, and not alter it.

I respect people's concerns about cultural appropriation. I have seen this happen alot in the "New Age" movement, where some people make alot of money by marketing "ancient wisdom" to be taught over a series of weekends. The 'wisdom' in question becomes a mere parody of what it originally was, for the sake of consumerism. This phenomenon does exist, and does need to be fought against.

Everyone here should know that what we have is from Indonesian teachers, and it is our goal to honor that which we have been given. I can only say once again that we do not seek to exploit or profit from these arts, that we love them very much, which has made arguments with other Silat players seem very hear-wrenching.

I agree with you that Silat is alive. But the moment we succeed in quieting voices which say something opposite to what we want to hear, we destroy diversity, and the art ceases to live.

If we faithfully represent the voices of our Indonesian teachers, then we will prevail in spite of all. Let us not seek to regulate, re-interpret, or control according to our personal dogma and view of the world.

Peace,

Russian Silat

EricB

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #43 on: 05/01/2008 19:50 »
How is it possible that we have to go back on differences between PCP and the rest of this community every time?

This is effecting a lot of topics/threads here, I'm starting to feel the need to clean-up this entire topic, and replace all off-subject contents into another "new" topic.

If you read this allover again I think we lost 2 pages with arguments that don't have anything to do with the subject of this thread.


Regards, Eric

Ranggalana

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Re: Keris in Silat
« Reply #44 on: 05/01/2008 22:37 »
Agree, Kang Eric,

We should stick to the topic of keris in silat in this thread.

I would like to ask Malaysian silat players about keris fighting in Malaysian silat. I have seen Gayong guys playing impressive on youtube and I think that their keris fighting might be close to Majapahit keris fighting reported by Ma Huan. Would some Malaysian pesilat be so kind as to elaborate on their ilmu silat-keris to us all?

I think that keris is a fascinating subject.

Panglima Sudirman carried a keris with him into battle against the Dutch. Did he mean to stab the Dutch with it? No. He brought it with him, and carried it in front, to show his people that he was a pandhita (preist) rather than a satria (warrior) and was interested only in defending the country and not in power  politics.

Was he known to draw the keris?

Yes, some Wonosari people recall that once a Dutch spy plane had nearly caught the Panglima who was ill, in a litter on people's shoulders. The Panglima drew his keris, an old betok Buda, and a dark rain cloud descended from out of nowhere and covered the guerillas.

Is that keris fighting?

When Arya Penangsang, wounded and angered by Sutawijaya who had cut his belly open with his spear, using trickery by baiting Gagak Rimang with a mare, he pinned Sutawijaya to the ground and was about to stab him with his keris, forgeting that he had slung his intestines there, and cut them killing himself, something happened in the collective Javanese mind.

It is said that Sutawijaya was so impressed and decreed that all Javanese grooms at their wedding should wear a string of jasmine over their keris to remember how Arya Penangsang put his intestines over his.

Is there Jawa keris fighting knowledge?

No. Modern Jawanese maintain that keris fighting is taboo. The current idea about keris in silat is that Jawanese don't prance about with drawn keris. Keris fighting knowledge is now Bugis, Malaysian, and maybe Balinese, although in Bali I have only ever seen keris used to ngurek ... turned against the owner in trance. The people that do it claim that it is orgasmic.

Warm salams to all,
Ranggalana.






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