Bangau Putih in Brooklyn, New York

[SundaWarrior]

Salam Everyone,

I had the opportunity to train with the Bangau Putih group in New York. 
The headquarters is in Bogor i believe.  They were all very nice to me
and I talked with them about joining the AOPSA.  It was a very good
experience and i hope to continue are friendship.  I wasn't able to meet
there Guru in New York but maybe tommorrow.  Bangau Putih has
a lot of Chinese influence but it is definitely Silat in the same respect.
If any of you guys know the Guru Besar in Bogor, let me know.  I also
got to meet up with Guru Yana again this past Saturday as well.

Hormat,
Nicholas   

[Rebo Paing]

Bangau Putih has a lot of Chinese influence but it is definitely Silat in the same respect.

If any of you guys know the Guru Besar in Bogor, let me know.  

Hi Nick, that's because Bangau Putih (White Crane) is Chinese Indonesian ... and I agree, it is silat.
I'm curious though, in your opinion, what specific aspect did you identify that makes it "silat" compared to lets say a consideration that Gao style bagua or even Chen style Taiji can be seen as silat as well? Of course I'm not refering to circle walking practice and other unique/specific and stylised aspects of Bagua/Taiji, but am referring to observation of movement "flow" in general.

Considering the age and heritage of Chen Taiji, I would be surprised if it didn't have some influence on the development of at least some styles of silat in Asia Tenggara.

I posit that the definition has more to do with historical and cultural precedent than with the identification of physical attributes. As long as the system has strong cultural & historical roots to an external source, we call it by its better known identifier ... i.e. Taiji. However, if the source is overshadowed by a greater local influence ... e.g. that the player participated in the Independance movement, it becomes a derivative of its former self and is absorbed into local legend and culture, like Mustika Kwitang and Bangau Putih for that matter, and ties to the old are obliterated over time, although in this case I believe Bangau Putih still maintains a certain degree of its original cultural heritage if not mistaken.

Pursuing this line of thinking, my father showed me some SH jurus once and to my mind its character is no different to the character of taiji and bagua (Silat Patkwa).

FYI Bram is a long time Bangau Putih player and is in a better position to comment it.

Salam,
Krisno

[Ranggalana]

Bangau Putih has a lot of Chinese influence but it is definitely Silat in the same respect.

If any of you guys know the Guru Besar in Bogor, let me know.  

Hi Nick, that's because Bangau Putih (White Crane) is Chinese Indonesian ... and I agree, it is silat. ......FYI Bram is a long time Bangau Putih player and is in a better position to comment it.

Salam,
Krisno

Salam all,

I was talking to Bang Aidinal Alrashid a few years ago and in his opinion, nearly all silat has a Chinese influence, just like nearly all Indonesian cultures have.

Bangau Putih is however, still very Indonesian Chinese (peranakan) in culture. Almarhum Suhu Subur Raharja, the founder, learned from his family and other Guru, but when he formulated Bangau Putih he created the systemhimself. I believe that I have heard elders saying we are related to Shaolin and Butong Pay. In fact, in the whole of Indonesia we are the only Chinese silat school to perform the mythical Kie Lin.

The current Guru Besar is one of Suhu Subur's sons, Suhu Gunawan Raharja. I have known him for over 20 years. He is a true Guru, IMO. The headquarters is in Bogor, Kebon Jukut, Gang Aut. But we also have a training center up the mountains in Tugu, Cisarua area.

Like Kris, I would like to know how and why you opine that it is definitely silat... what makes the difference?

Salam hangat,
Bram

[SundaWarrior]

Salam Mas Krisno and Mas Bram,

I have always had a hard time trying to explain the differences.
In my opinion, I think it has a little to do with the flowing of
movement.  If you notice in Kung Fu the movements seem
to flow with continuous energy that doesn't seem to change much.
In Pencak Silat the flow of energy can be continuous and in bursts.
Slow to fast, Hard to soft, etc..  Maybe I am wrong - I am no expert.
These are just some things, visually and physically, that I have noticed
in my experiences so far.  Bangau Putih seemed to have some very
similar langkah to Pencak Silat and also their monkey and tiger systems
(leopard in Bangau Putih i believe) seem very similar in movement.
Some of the take downs and sweeps also look very much like Silat, but
I guess there are only so many ways you can sweep a person.  The crane
movements in Bangau Putih definitely seem to be of Chinese origin. 
They use the terms  - long forms and short forms - instead of saying jurus,
which when I think long forms and short forms i immediately think Tai Chi.
Again, these are just the things i noticed.  I am by no means even close to an
expert in Pencak Silat or Kung Fu but these are my thoughts.  Overall I think
Bangau Putih is an incredible system with many aspects (not just fighting)
and I had a great time meeting everyone.  Very humble people.

Hormat,
Nicholas 

[Rebo Paing]

Salam kembali Nick!

IMO every martial art has rhythm, which is the dynamic relationship between fast and slow expressed as "flow", and as you have correctly observed, "there are only so many different ways" to perform a physical technique. There are similarities across the board in all martial arts, because in every single example the people who practiced the arts had the same physiology ... all homo-sapiens.

If we observe any martial art in action i.e. being used in a practical sense, it becomes increasingly difficult to distinguish between stylistic differences. However I believe that it's possible to differentiate the mix into The Rule of Nine and they are :

• three broad categories of method for using body tools, which aso tend to overlap (combinations of the 3). They are, striking (arms/hands), striking (legs/feet) and grappling,
  
• three broad categories for utilising distance, which include variations of long, middle and short ranges and
• three broad categories of level, which are high, middle or low ground, and combinations thereof.

Because every martial art that was ever developed, grew in an organic way (and usually) in response to a perceived need, they were necessarily influenced by the prevailing understanding of physiology (how the body, neuro-skeleto-muscular system works) and wrapped in the belief system of the practitioners and or founders, or the physical culture and the psychological culture.

Following the laws of natural selection and the survival of the fittest, it makes sense that eventually humans will work out what works best, irrespective of where they happen to live or what culture they are a part of. The explanations and the route taken to get to that point may differ however ... and that IMO, is where we can start to make distinctions between systems. The cultural millieu provides the framework in which a system develops.

Imagine for a while, that many2 years ago shrouded in the mists of time in the age of legend ... there was a Javanese who was taught by a travelling salesman who happened to be very good at Capoeira  . After the salesman had left, the Javanese man was left with a systemised idea, which he had grasped readily because he'd used parts of that idea himself before, he even had his own systems ... what was new was the foreign cultural way of systemisation, a slightly different way of looking at the universe of martial art. The same man thought about it some more, and gradually over time the ideas that he could make work would be absorbed and expressed in the Javanese millieu, the rest maybe discarded. However a takedown is still a takedown, a driving punch is still a driving punch and a roundhouse kick is limited by our anatomical structure.

As a parallel, we can observe that Kejawen (traditional Jawanese philosophy) has absorbed parts of Animism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam (following a time line). It is distinctly Kejawen, but has similarities to a lesser or greater degree of all influences.

It's the same with silat ... it has absorbed so many influences, as have all martial systems across the world. In Indonesia itself, there are over 800 recognised systems ... all with varying degrees of difference ... and some appear on the surface to be very different. Therefore, I think it is the cultural environment that is the only yardstick by which to label a system.
The cultural environment (which also is influenced by so many factors), provides a framework, which influences training and philosophy, but the optimum efficient expression of energy at the end is the same.

So, Nampon, Bangau Putih, Kumango, Cimande, Mustika Kwitang etc. are silat because they identify themselves as silat and because they grew out of the cultural mix where this type of activity is called silat, maenpo or pukulan. If anyone were to internalise any foreign system, and express it through the crucible of their own culture, over time it will necessarily become an expression of their culture.
 
Salam,
Krisno

[Ranggalana]

Salam Mas Krisno and Mas Bram,

..... Bangau Putih seemed to have some very
similar langkah to Pencak Silat and also their monkey and tiger systems
(leopard in Bangau Putih i believe) seem very similar in movement.
Some of the take downs and sweeps also look very much like Silat, but
I guess there are only so many ways you can sweep a person.  The crane
movements in Bangau Putih definitely seem to be of Chinese origin. 
They use the terms  - long forms and short forms - instead of saying jurus,
which when I think long forms and short forms i immediately think Tai Chi.
Again, these are just the things i noticed.  I am by no means even close to an
expert in Pencak Silat or Kung Fu but these are my thoughts.  Overall I think
Bangau Putih is an incredible system with many aspects (not just fighting)
and I had a great time meeting everyone.  Very humble people.

Hormat,
Nicholas 

Salam Nicholas,

Bangau Putih has both the tiger and the leopard. In comparison to other silat schools I have seen here, it looks like PGB has the most movements in all Indonesia. Not only for fighting but also for healing and character building. Most if not all of the movements have a Chinese origin, but PGB was and is an Indonesian silat. After all Suhu Subur was a freedom fighter. Like Mas Kris said, it is Indonesian because it comes from Bogor, even though the person who formulated it was from a Chinese Indonesian (Sundanese) family.

I once asked  a sesepuh of our perguruan, what movements exactly are from Cimande, as we always have said that the Cimande elders are our elders too. He told me that we did not take movement from Cimande, rather we took the kebatinan. Suhu also studied kebatinan from the last Raja of Lombok who was exiled to Sukabumi where Suhu also has roots. He studied kebatinan under the Raja Lombok when he was a child.

What you mention to be called long form and short form in Bogor we call Jalan Panjang and Jalan Pendek, which would probably be better translated Long Way and Short Way. Many jalan pendek have immediate and apparent fighting applications, and all Jalan Panjang are meditative, and character building. We have nearly 1000 Jalan Pendek and many Jalan Panjang, and we often use the word Jurus to describe both. So when someone is, for example, studying the Jalan Panjang called 'Lima Macan Turun Gunung' (Five Tigers Descending the Mountain) he might say that he is studying Jurus Macan. Or when someone is learning the Jalan Pendek called Tangkis Pukul (Divert and Strike) she can say that she is learning the Jurus Tangkis Pukul.

The Crane - I have never seen anything quite like what we do, especially the energy. I think that even though the roots of PGB are in ancient China, the system itself is the genius of Suhu Subur Raharja. And the new health system is the creation of Suhu Gunawan Raharja, now added to the original system. Next time you visit Bogor don't forget to stop by.

Salam hangat,
Bram

[SundaWarrior]

Salam,

Mas Krisno

I agree that eventually all martial arts are in essence the same.  I just
think different cultures, like Pencak Silat Indonesia, express the energy
in different ways than say Chinese Kung Fu and like you said it has
a lot to do with the culture.  Bangau Putih is Silat because of its Indonesian
influence even though they stay very close to Chinese tradition as well. 
It is definitely a very interesting subject and it really doesn't matter
which art expresses energy in which way but the cultural aspect of each
art should definitely be preserved and studied.  What do you think?

Mas Bram,

Very interesting.  I did not know Suhu Subur was a feedom fighter of Indonesia.
If you haven't already, you should definitely write an article about Bangau Putih.
Next year when I return to Java, I will definitely come out to Bogor to visit.  I
hope the Bangau Putih group here in the US will become part of the US family.

Hormat,

Nicholas
 

[Rebo Paing]

Kang Nick, I thnk that we are in broad agreement  .

I think maybe the only difference lies in our respective understanding of that nebulous and vague  term "energy".
As our body in its capacity as an energy or power delivery system uses a combination of a chemical and mechanical process, there can only ever be one optimum method to express peak transference of energy ... which in turn may manifest slight differences depending upon an individual's physiology.

The paths to get to that same point may differ from culture to culture ... the marvellous thing is that it may also be understood sans culture perse, but through individual introspection, meditation and practice ... the treasures available to us all.

Salam,
Krisno

[Ranggalana]

Salam,

....Mas Bram,

Very interesting.  I did not know Suhu Subur was a feedom fighter of Indonesia.
If you haven't already, you should definitely write an article about Bangau Putih.
Next year when I return to Java, I will definitely come out to Bogor to visit.  I
hope the Bangau Putih group here in the US will become part of the US family.

Hormat,

Nicholas
 

I don't think I would like to write about PGB as it is such a big, wide system, with so many secret rooms. I do write occasionally in the PGB newsletter Wartabangau though, mainly about my own experiences.

Within PGB there are so many different definitions of what we do and why, it woul dbe a major and lifetime headache trying to get the 'truth'

Warm salams,
B

[Josh]

Salam one and all-

Thank you to Nick and Bram for such a nice discussion of bangau putih silat. 

I am the trainer for the NY cabang, myself training under my teacher Wunfie in NJ, and Guru Besar in Bogor. 

From my point of view, PGB silat is Indonesian the way Pizza is American.  Pizza is an Italian dish brought to America by Italians, but then it became American, and you can't find American Pizza in Italy.  It is instantly recognizable as an American dish, but what specifically makes it American I cannot say. 

Thanks to everyone who are working to bring the fascinating science of pencak silat to the rest of the world.
Josh

[SundaWarrior]

Salam Josh,

Thank you for joining the forum.  It is good to see more American teachers on here who have respect for Pencak Silat and do not use it
to glorify themselves.  Please continue to promote Bangau Putih in the US and next time I am in New York I hope to meet you in person.  Bangau Putih is truly a unique style of Pencak Silat and deserves to be spread throughout the world.  Please give my blessings to the Brooklyn group.

Hormat,
Nicholas   

[Rebo Paing]

Salam one and all-

From my point of view, PGB silat is Indonesian the way Pizza is American.  Pizza is an Italian dish brought to America by Italians, but then it became American, and you can't find American Pizza in Italy.  It is instantly recognizable as an American dish, but what specifically makes it American I cannot say. 

Very good analogy!

Welcome to the forum Josh, I'm looknig forward to your perspectives.

Salam,
Krisno

[Ranggalana]

Salam one and all-

Thank you to Nick and Bram for such a nice discussion of bangau putih silat. 

I am the trainer for the NY cabang, myself training under my teacher Wunfie in NJ, and Guru Besar in Bogor. 

From my point of view, PGB silat is Indonesian the way Pizza is American.  Pizza is an Italian dish brought to America by Italians, but then it became American, and you can't find American Pizza in Italy.  It is instantly recognizable as an American dish, but what specifically makes it American I cannot say. 

Thanks to everyone who are working to bring the fascinating science of pencak silat to the rest of the world.
Josh

Salam Perguruan, Josh, \=()=/ a soja there...

and welcome to the forum...

Another interesting illustration of the many definitions of Bangau Putih amongst people who practise it... I was in Ubud a few days ago and went to the PGB place by the river there (Kang Ie-Ie's place). Unfortunately Kang Ie-Ie was not there (he was in Malaysia) but I met a trainer called Emil, who was training with an Englishman and a guy from Sumatra. After training they invited me to have some sweet tea with them and we talked about pencak silat and Emil told me that PGB was not pencak silat. I didn't argue because I knew what he meant. So there you go, some of us think that we are not pencak silat.

In the old days it was a bit more simple, if it was from the Chinese Indonesians it was called kuntaw, if it was from Bandung it was maempo, if it was from Padang it was silek. When it was created by nationalists who were part of the national freedom movement like for example the founder of Perisai Diri, or Suhu Subur for that matter, it appears that they used the term Pencak Silat from the start.

However, although PGB has roots and ancestral ashes that go way back to Shaolin the system itself was the genius of Suhu Subur Raharja. It was formulated in the 1950s so was part of the define Indonesia movement at the time. The kebatinan of PGB is very Indonesian in that it derives from ancient Sundanese philosophy, Lombok nobility, and also from Chinese traditions.

I was also talking to Ted in Ubud - Ted's father is the keeper of the PGB Library. Ted told me that silat is essentially inocence. That is the essense of silat. The expression of silat is the expression of inocence. Having moves and jurus and all that is not the real silat, just as having words and language doesn't make one a poet.

Salam hangat to all,
Bram